How does he act when another family member rides him? Is he being ridden under similar tack as he was with his previous owner? How are you son's hands and feet.

A couple things come to mind. Perhaps your son is a timid rider and he giving the horse the option of refusing or perhaps his hands, legs and seat are sending mixed signals.

If the horse were mine, I'd get someone experienced to take him for a ride so you can better assess if this is a training issue (which I suspect it isn't) or a communication issue. It might be a good idea to get riding lessons so help him understand how he can handle these situations.

 

I had the same problem with Sunny when I first got him. I had no idea what a truly neck reined horse was like and went waaaaay overbaord with my cues. He stood still as stone, no matter how frustrated I got or how much harder I nudged him with my heels!!!! Turns out, he wanted LESS, not more. Now that I figured that out, I can drop the reins across his neck and ride him off my leg, he is that responsive. But to get him to move? Take your reins and move your hand about a quarter inch forward. Who would have thunked it?! Also comes to mind my old fella JD, rest in peace. He taught several young girls to ride, and when he got confused as to what they wanted from him, he planted his feet and refused to move. I loved that horse for that reaction, he was as steady as a rock and refused to be flustered.

Check that your son isn't giving him a few signals all at once, as wr said-his feet might be saying, "go," but he could be pulling back on the reins in hesitation, even a little, or his body could be saying stop, and the horse is doing what an awesome horse SHOULD do, and that is stop til his rider gets his stuff together up there! If that doesn't seem to be the case, then a hint to get a horse moving from his back, turn his head with your reins. A horse's feet follow his head, and if you turn his head to the side he will take a step in that direction. Then keep on him only releasing the pressure from his leg when the horse gives him what he wants. Another thing I do with Sunny sometimes when he's being silly is to twirl the ends of the reins (being careful not to scare him) within his sight line while clucking and nudging with leg, that gets him moving forward, but be careful not to spook him with this manuever. And yet another option is to lunge him with your son on his back, driving him forward from the ground at the end of a lead rope (if he is a school horse he *should* lunge).

 

He is being ridden in the exact same tack she used as she gave us all his tack, except that yesterday I took him off the English saddle and put him on a western one. The first day I had him keep light contact, but yesterday I told him to give him all the rein and just keep hold of the end to make sure he wasn't pulling. He is keeping his feet completely off his sides when he is moving, so I'm sure it's not a signal thing.

The girl says he does this with everyone new including experienced horse people and that it's a stubborn thing. She said she was the only one that's ridden him in 10 years and has only had new people on him for the last 2 years and that he does it to everyone. (I think he's part mule). So, in short, it's not a signal thing from my son, it's the horse himself, whether a lack of respect or just flat out stubborn. She told me that he knows when he has someone new on his back and has tricks. I got him and he did the same thing and when I used the dressage whip I got a crow hop, not much else. I may have to get on him some more. Maybe some round pen work is in order?

 

Check that your son isn't giving him a few signals all at once, as wr said-his feet might be saying, "go," but he could be pulling back on the reins in hesitation, even a little, or his body could be saying stop, and the horse is doing what an awesome horse SHOULD do, and that is stop til his rider gets his stuff together up there! If that doesn't seem to be the case, then a hint to get a horse moving from his back, turn his head with your reins. A horse's feet follow his head, and if you turn his head to the side he will take a step in that direction. Then keep on him only releasing the pressure from his leg when the horse gives him what he wants. Another thing I do with Sunny sometimes when he's being silly is to twirl the ends of the reins (being careful not to scare him) within his sight line while clucking and nudging with leg, that gets him moving forward, but be careful not to spook him with this manuever. And yet another option is to lunge him with your son on his back, driving him forward from the ground at the end of a lead rope (if he is a school horse he *should* lunge).

We did try turning his head to the side and let's put it this way.........he is very flexible without having to move his feet. LOL He'll stand there all day I think with his head all the way around to the stirrup.

I would try the lunging, but she said she never could get him to lunge. The he "turns into you" when lunging. She said when she did, she had to use two ropes, one on each side with the far rope around his hindend to keep him from turning into her. She said she finally just stopped lunging and never used it.

 

have a vet check him
even though he is bombproof and slow (which is a great dead broke horse to me...I love that!)---I would have a vet check for physical problems first.

If all OK------then get another horse and ride with it. Another horse moving out means this horse will follow. The ride starts. You can gain your respect and he will know you when the ride happens...get a quicker paced horse in front. Move him and have him learn your feel.

You don't need to lunge a dead broke horse. He needs to be ridden with another horse.
And I would have an adult ride first....one that can put good pressure on the sides and get the results required first.

You have a great personality in him....you will bring out the energy I am sure!

 

A horse's feet do NOT follow their head, as you've already discovered. Feet follow the shoulders.

I also advise that you have a more experienced rider work with the horse, because right now he has your young son's number. Will the previous owner come out to your place to help you?

Also, (and this is why you need an experienced rider) when you ask a balky horse for forward - whether he walks, trots, canters, or jumps forward - that is the correct response and you need to reward, stay with him, and not freeze or panic and accidentally hit him in the mouth. You may need to use a whip and he may jump forwards several times before you can begin to use a more subtle cue.

Again, find an experienced rider to help you. He must have forward in him if he was shown in real Hunters and Dressage.

 

Again, find an experienced rider to help you. He must have forward in him if he was shown in real Hunters and Dressage. (bolding and UL mine)

:goodjob:

 

LOL Lisa! I specified that because if he was shown APHA, well.... good luck.

 

LOL Lisa! I specified that because if he was shown APHA, well.... good luck.

I know it...forward is not a requirement in "English" classes in APHA shows.

 

Hi, I mostly lurk on this forum, since I currently have no horses, but I trained problem cases for a living for ten years, so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

Not-moving-forward horses are greatly benefited by groundwork. The fact that this horse turns to face you while lunging is a strong symptom of the not-forward-problem. I would not ignore this, getting him to lunge properly would go a long way towards making him understand he must ALWAYS go forward when asked.

To do this, forget for the time being about standing in the middle of the circle with the horse revolving around you. You will be the center of a circle, but it will be a circle that's always shifting around! You will have to be active and quick. Take his better direction first, let's say it's to the left. Hold the lunge line in your left hand and the lunge whip in the right. Back away from the horse and feed out a little line, maybe 10 or 12 feet to start with. Now circle briskly around the horse to your right towards his hindquarters, snaking the whip towards his back legs or hocks, telling him "walk on," or clucking, or whatever you want. Keep far enough away from the horse that the lunge line is not completely slack. Of course, he will turn to face you as you do this, but do not give up! Keep circling around back behind him, telling him to go, and snaking the whip at his hindquarters. The longer the line, the faster you have to be, so choke up if he's super stubborn. You can get better contact with the whip that way too. You want to push him towards your left, and you WILL get him walking that way, if you're persistent! Part of the art of this is to already be back behind him before he's finished turning to face you. Wear your running shoes!

If he takes a few steps away from the whip without turning to you then praise him and try walking along with him, about even with his hips, with the lunge whip snaking along behind him. Think of him moving in a circle, with you moving along with him in a smaller circle inside his. This way he can move in a larger arc, which encourages forward motion, but you can stay close enough to intervene if he balks. If he stops and tries to turn, immediately move back behind him again and force him forward. You may need to reel in and play out line all the time. Only when he is reliably forward all the time can you think about standing comfortably at the center of his circle, while he does all the work.

IMHO getting this horse lunging well would really effectively address this issue and help turn a nice horse into a great one!

 

Thanks for the advice. The owner is by no means a novice. She knows what she's doing and I guess from what she's said she's had to use the dressage whip on him to keep him moving. She did say he was lazy which I took to mean, wants to walk only, not trot or canter, which was fine. But what he actually is is lazy, doesn't want to walk. LOL

She is supposed to come out on Thursday and work with the horse and our son. She said she doesn't have any problem with him, but any strange person that gets on him, he does the same thing. Hopefully she can teach our son what to do.

 

I can't see how he could be used as a school horse if he refuses to move.

 

WR, I was wondering the same thing. But the old owner was pretty much the only one who rode him in the last 10 years? Was he a school horse as a 6yo (or younger) stallion? Or does school horse mean once in a blue moon a beginner sat on him?

If he was shown APHA, was he trained to spur-stop? If so, that would be a huge issue and would need to be trained out of him.

 

6e, how did the horse behave when your son test rode him?

 

I honestly don't know how he behaved at the shows. I didn't ask. He was only used as a lesson horse the last couple of years. Before that he was only ridden by this girl. She said he was also used as a trail horse for camps, but I have no clue how they got him to go. I guess we'll see what she does when she comes out on Thursday.

My son did not test ride him. Probably a mistake, but we've dealt with this girl before and she's always been upfront and honest with us and I had no reason to doubt her on him. Which I can't say she was dishonest at all. He is very safe. I'd almost call him a babysitter horse.

I have no clue how he could have been a lesson horse. I wondered the same thing. Unless he was for very beginners or perhaps he just followed the horses around the ring, although even when I ride mine and my daughter rides hers, he is quite content to stand there and watch and not budge. He might be different out of the pasture and on an actual trail or perhaps at her place where there were a ton of horses being boarded and he was rode in an arena, perhaps he knew that the arena mean work and didn't hesitate.

I'm considering putting my husband on him. He has a lot stronger voice and has much stronger legs. He may be able to make an impact on him moving and he's not afraid of them.

 

Sounds like getting a trainer involved is the best idea, and perhaps to give your son lessons on the horse?

A lot of "school" horses know the difference between novices and advanced riders. When the novice gets on they might plod along or stop a lot (especially if the rider gets off balanced), and as soon as the experienced rider gets on they show that they are actually capable of a lot more. Without a trainer involved, though, the kids might never get matched to the right school horse for the right lesson.

For example, my younger dd has been riding a nice forward pony to learn to trot, but has switched to an older, wiser, and more plodding pony to learn to canter. The reason is that she will really need to communicate that she's *with* the pony before she'll canter, whereas the forward one might just go and go and go. Thankfully our trainer knows her lesson ponies well to make it work safely and with minimal frustration for all.

Both your son and the horse might get really frustrated trying to figure out exactly what to do next without someone helping them along. Do you ride? Can you get on and school the horse?

 

he's not taking you seriously at all , grip it and whip it. Well grip it and start tapping with increasing determination.

I've got an older arab we use for the kids and inexperienced riders , he's way slow to respond to feet , legs , whatever. Thats great for the "Sunday afternoon pony rides "

When my older son rides him it takes a couple of firm taps to change his attitude back into a peformance horse , then he's fine but he's going to make you really prove you want to go that first time.

 

What worries me about actually using a crop on him is that he just MIGHT respond. And if he does, you know how it will be...the sudden lurch forward, which *could* make your son yank back in that moment of panic, thus negating the whole excercise.

I always found turning their heads worked well to get the feet moving, sorry if I had bad info as to why that would have been. I was always under the impression that the head followed the feet and will try to figure out where I got that info, as it must have been bad. So if that isn't the case, what are the mechanics behind the emergency stop being effective (which it ISN'T on my arab, that boy will run a mile with his head buried in my boot, goof ball) and turning the head causing a step? Is it more of throwing the shoulder off balance?

I am pretty sure you don't need to "reteach" him, you just need to figure out what makes this individual horse "click." Sounds like he is laughing all the way to the barn...been there, done that as well. ANotehr option might be to have a halter under his bridle, and try leading him with your son on his back.

 

I can't be of too much help, but can say that we've used the Clint Anderson method with horses in the past and was such a blessing. You can youtube some of his instructional videos.

 

I forgot to mention that you should not be praising when he does move. At his age and apparent stage of training, movement is assumed and expected.

 

Sometimes horses that really don't want to move will buck if you get after them...just a thought.

 

My mare used to do this on trail, a stick worked well until we established a bond and she trusted me. This took many months.

However, I think this problem would be way too much frustration for a 10 year old! Personally, I don't think it's the right horse for the child and if it were me, I'd return him and keep looking, and not skip the test ride on the next one. Just my 2cents, good luck!

 

Well, we found what works. I told you that the dressage whip just made him crow hop. So today my older daughter got on him and used the end of the lead rope that we tie off to the saddle. Worked very well and she didn't have to use it hard and then once he was moving she just had to keep him moving. After that, my son got back on and all he had to do was lightly tack him with the end of the lead rope on the behind and away he'd go. So, I think we've figured this out until my son and this horse bond. He was very pleased with his ride tonight.

 

So if that isn't the case, what are the mechanics behind the emergency stop being effective (which it ISN'T on my arab, that boy will run a mile with his head buried in my boot, goof ball) and turning the head causing a step? Is it more of throwing the shoulder off balance?

The emergency or one rein stop works because it dissengages the hind end, and when you train for this you actually want to be able to pull their head around without them moving their feet while they are standing.

 

Wow 6e, that's great news! :banana02: