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Another love and marriage thread

5.5K views 117 replies 26 participants last post by  Fowler  
#1 ·
...because I was up way early reading......

"Your love is located within you. It is yours to nurture and savor, to give to others in any way you choose. Love must be without qualifications or demands. You must learn to find ecstasy in other peoples happiness. Once you feel love for yourself, it is quite normal to give it away." Wayne Dyer Gifts from Eykis

One of the nearly universally accepted assumptions in our society is the assumption that the monogamous pair is the only valid structure of human sexual relationships, being so superior that it doesn't warrant scrutiny. In fact, our culture puts so much emphasis on it, through cultural norms, modern literature and films, that serious discussion on the subject of alternatives is rare. Monogamous marriage has even been incorporated into the law of our land in the section that specifies how money for sex education must be spent. It is a focus of the religious right when they talk about how to reduce welfare, how to reduce abortion, how to reduce single parent families, and many other issues.

The reasons given for monogamous marriage being the only acceptable form of couple relating, and the only place where sex is allowed, generally fall into two categories:

1. It is our natural state
2. It is the only moral state, the one approved by God - all other options are inherently sinful.

It is interesting to note that these are essentially the same reasons given by the fundamentalist right for their condemnation of homosexuality, namely that it is unnatural and immoral.

There is an excellent Beacon Press book by E. J. Graff, "What is Marriage For". Graff's six reasons for marriage are: money, sex, babies, kin, order and heart.

She provides an excellent historical review of marriage and convincing evidence that our view of marriage is a very culturally determined one, and not necessarily a "natural" condition of the human organism.

If intelligent life is about the free and responsible search for truth and meaning then it is apparent that unquestioned answers are more dangerous than unanswered questions. Are we hard wired for it? Is it the only "moral" way of relating sexually to others?

"The complexity of a system is limited only if the system is rigid, inflexible and isolated from its environment. Self-organizing systems in continual interaction with their environment are capable of tremendously increasing their complexity by abandoning structural stability in favor of flexibility and open ended evolution."
Erich Jantsch. Design for Living.


In examining the natural structure of things, the binary system doesn't really stand out. The atomic structure has three parts; proton, electron, and neutron. These then combine to produce a complex array of atoms and thence molecules. Architectural structures generally, from the pyramids through to the geodesic domes of Buckminster Fuller, are based on the triangle. In music, a three-note chord is more dynamic and powerful than one made up of two notes. I know these are not persuasive arguments, but something to think about.

The increasing evidence from animal research is that fewer and fewer species (once thought to be so) are really monogamous in the wild. In the animal kingdom, less than 5% of all animals are now thought to be monogamous.

The evolutionary biologists posit that there are many good reasons for nonmonogamy, but their theories are difficult, if not impossible, to test. The anthropology argument for monogamy, that a man would only protect his children if he was sure of their paternity, is being questioned, most recently in a book called "Cultures of Multiple Fathers". In this study, the authors found evidence that showed that the children of women who had sexual relationships with many men had better survival rates - because of "potential" paternity, they were less vulnerable.

Of the 1270 human societies catalogued in Murdoch's Ethnographic Atlas, about 85% indicate some form of multi-spouse relationships. Even the few societies that theoretically espouse monogamy, like ours, have trouble showing any evidence that it works.

On the contrary, there seems to be a lot of evidence that Western humans don't do monogamy well in the high divorce rates, high rates of infidelity, the highest teen pregnancy rate in the western world, high single parent family numbers, and other indicators. We often see people leave an otherwise good marriage because they fell in love with someone new, in what might be called serial monogamy. In short, the argument that the human animal is "hard wired" for monogamy is difficult to support.

In any case, since we humans are so bad at monogamy, other freely chosen relationship structures should also be supported.

It is sinful - God doesn't like it.

"Wickedness is a myth invented by good people to account for the curious attractiveness of others." Oscar Wilde Chameleon.

"Confusing monogamy with morality has done more to destroy the conscience of the human race than any other error." George Bernard Shaw

The sinfulness and wickedness of sex is based on the assumption that God doesn't like sex. This poison has its roots in Ancient Assyria, and the religions of Mythra and Zoroastrianism, which first put forth the idea of "the obscenity of the flesh." The sex drive, being one that cannot be denied, becomes a rich source of implanted guilt and shame, used to manipulate and degrade the individual. Therefore any natural sexual feelings need to be accompanied by shame, and therefore kept secret.

Somehow this shameful, sinful act is transformed into sacred overnight if accompanied by the right words by someone with the appropriate qualifications to marry people. It does not seem to matter how the marriage was arranged, for what reasons the people are marrying, or even if they want to be married. The only requirement is that they go through the legal process.

Without going into it too deeply, a perusal of most mainstream religions show that

1. Many of the ancient texts were written by polygamists, and
2. Most of the rules were based on considering women as property, rather than as a result of a solemn promise between equals.

It is also worth noting that no matter how strict the moral teachings, or how severe the punishments, be it from the Taliban, the Bible belt, Rome or Washington, human beings persist in trying to satisfy their sexual desires. A recent news article reported that 40% of nuns had a history of being sexually abused, either before or within the Roman church. The data on priests is slowly becoming public. The data on the general public is harder to obtain, given the resistance to admit to being abused, or being an abuser. It is clear that sex crimes put a lot of people in jail.

There is historical evidence of religions that embrace our sexual nature in a positive way, found on temple carvings from Asia, pottery from Europe and elsewhere, but it is not a feature of current Western mainstream religious practice.

Serial monogamy is perhaps an unconscious compromise between the cultural ideal of monogamy and the facts of human nature - in other words, we acknowledge that you can love more than one person, but only one at a time.

The destructive effects of serial monogamy on children are well documented, with 8 million single parent families in the US, infidelity-fueled acrimonious divorces, through to the spate of spouse murdering lately. Much of the evidence seems to indicate that human attainment of the cultural ideal of monogamy is a myth.

The moral argument for monogamy is a weak position. A better moral argument can be made regarding what is best for each individual and for society, that is, do we make life better for each and all by insisting on sex only in monogamous marriage of heterosexual couples, or on letting individuals find responsible ways of relating that, in Pagan terms, "harm none". Liberal religion has taken a fine stance supporting homosexual and heterosexual couples, and unmarried couples as well. What is so hard about seeing the parallels to the "more than a couple" part?

It is a reality that there are many people now relating sexually in groups greater than two. The reason I keep referring to "relating sexually" is that this seems to be the stumbling block for many. If polyamorists were to keep it platonic, not be sexually involved with people they love in numbers greater than one, most would applaud their loving behavior. But when they admit that they not only love more than one, but have sexual relationships with more than one, all the red flags come flying out.

Electronic Journal of Human Sexuality, Volume 6, Feb. 27, 2003
by Derek McCullough and David S. Hall, Ph.D.
 
#3 ·
Interesting.

Looked at in purely objective terms, there's really no comprehensive reason to believe that monogamy is the natural state of humans. Countless cultures have emerged with countless ways of determining the proper role of individual sexuality with regard to society as a whole. Almost without exception all systems they feature some form of exclusive pairing, the breaking of which is considered an affront to that culture, and equally without exception, the rules are frequently broken, and fail to cover all the variations of human inclination. They all, also, are inherently unfair.

I think this is unavoidable. No culture or society can thrive with out some standards of behavior within the context of the group, and almost by definition, these some of these rules are going to be arbitrary.

Ours, arguably, promotes monogamy. I say arguably, because it's really more accurate to say that ours promotes the perception of monogamy, and has always generally ignored deviation from the norm as long as appearances are kept up. The crime hasn't been so much 'adultery' as it has been 'getting caught at adultery. I'm not just talking about the contemporary US here, but all of Greco-Roman civilization.

I'll admit that I have a bias towards monogamy, and not just for the most obvious reason that I'm Catholic. For most of my life I wasn't - I was more of a libertarian-agnostic, and even then I was (mostly - I did sow some wild oats in my youth) strictly monogamous. I don't know how typical it is, but in my agnostic days, I was very concerned with ethics, morals, and the source of morality.

I'm going to stick to the reasoning of my agnostic days, since Catholic morality is generally well known on the topic (even if it is often misrepresented) and not shared by everyone.

First, and most obviously, one to one pairing makes sense, because it is the simplest form of distribution. The species is divided approximately in half between make and female, so it comes closest to ensuring that there really is someone for every one. Tampering with even distribution of human pairing has wild, often unpredictable and even violent consequences. When you have large segments of the population - of either gender - for whom no mates are available for any length of time, bad things usually follow.

Secondly, humans actually fare better working within constraints, even arbitrary ones. I would argue, that excellence in human pursuits actually requires external constraints, and the highest forms of human excellence occur when those constraints are embraced. In art for example, the best painters are those who embrace the two dimensionality of the canvas and their available pallette. In sports, the greatest achievements are only possible because of the rules which confine the game.

On an individual level, this equates to self-discipline, or constraints which the individual takes upone themself. It is dedication to a goal, and the ability to avoid distractions - or put another way, sacrificing 'everything' they want in order to experience a few things they want more completely.

Parallel to this, but appropos, I believe, is the idea of heroism. The hero, as most eloquently expressed by Joseph Campbell, is the human who sets as their goal, something outside themselves, and sets aside everything else in pursuit of that goal. Most often, this goal is something which they themselves, never actually get to enjoy. This isn't just western heroes, but all heroes in all cultures, and in all cultures, this heroism applied to love has been considered the highest form of love. Surprisingly enough, even in polyamorous cultures, this highest form of love is always for a single individual.

In this light, while, our western preference for monogamy actually makes a lot of sense, if we aspire to heroic love and if you believe heroic love is possible, it's hard to aspire to anything else.

I fully realize that sex can happen outside the context of love, and as I said before, I have tried it. I personally found it rather like having ince cream for dinner (I've tried that too): It seemed like a good idea at the time, and it fulfilled a craving, but I never felt very good the next day.

In even more pragmatic terms, no matter how good sex has been the first time with someone new, it was always much better the 15th time, or the 300th time, and I've never been able to get to that point without having a personal and exclusive bond with the woman in question.
 
#7 ·
As a kid growing up i didn't know anyone that was from a divorced family. I didn't know what that word meant. I'm 53 now.

Monogamy was more or less pretty normal here in America until 1980ish... of course there were a few bad apples, but most toed the line. At least in the area i grew up in.
 
#9 ·
i dont share.
My great-great aunt summed it up well. She said "I knew I wouldn't be one of two".

So, her husband dropped her off at the border of her Fathers land. I do not think that her soon-to-be ex wanted to talk to her Father at that particular moment.

Monogamy is probably a cultural thing, but it is a cultural thing because so many people WANT it!
 
#12 ·
My great-great aunt summed it up well. She said "I knew I wouldn't be one of two".
I am not sure if I am confused or not about this statement so I'm going to repeat what I think it means and please tell me if I am right because if I am understanding it wrong I would very much like to know. What I understand from that is she basically was saying she knew she wasn't going to make it as a couple. Or was it just with that particular man?

Monogamy is probably a cultural thing, but it is a cultural thing because so many people WANT it!
I say this with humor: So many people want McDonald's too...and it's a part of our culture here. :shrug:

I saw the article as a very long way (and I didn't post the whole thing), to say that all healthy relationships are valid in the general sense...however, certain relationships aren't viable for everyone.
 
#15 ·
I remember as a kid in grade school the folks reading the local paper, and under a heading in the paper that usually didn't appear there was this heading (Writ of Divorcement). I don't know if the folks knew the people or not. I didn't know them by name. They wernt local, but were in the readership of the paper somewhere. I remember the folks remarking about it and how unusual it was. That was in the 50s. Bu the 70s I was getting divorced on a regular basis lol
 
#16 ·
I am not sure if I am confused or not about this statement so I'm going to repeat what I think it means and please tell me if I am right because if I am understanding it wrong I would very much like to know. What I understand from that is she basically was saying she knew she wasn't going to make it as a couple. Or was it just with that particular man?



I say this with humor: So many people want McDonald's too...and it's a part of our culture here. :shrug:

I saw the article as a very long way (and I didn't post the whole thing), to say that all healthy relationships are valid in the general sense...however, certain relationships aren't viable for everyone.
I took it to mean the guy was not, uh, "wired" to be monogamous--either by infidelity(since they would be married, citing the "rules"/expectations) or he was polygamous. Not necessarily that they were incompatible. Compatibility back then was so down on the list.
 
#17 ·
I took it to mean the guy was not, uh, "wired" to be monogamous--either by infidelity(since they would be married, citing the "rules"/expectations) or he was polygamous. Not necessarily that they were incompatible. Compatibility back then was so down on the list.
I thought of that....but I think the not being "one of two" tripped me up because I was thinking if he was a cheater it would be more like "I'm not one of three" or 8 or whatever...etc. :shrug:

Hey. I keep saying I think differently than most people. Tonight we had a meeting at work and everyone saw this in perfect display. We were told...and I quote... "Next write the days of the week, monday through friday all the way down the paper." EXACT words.

What did I do? I wrote the days of the week...starting with Monday and going till Friday over and over all the way down the paper every line.

I was the only one that did that...I thought nothing of it...carrying out my instructions. EVERYONE ELSE lol did it "right"...they wrote one set of monday through friday taking up the whole paper and distributing the days evenly.

:shrug:
 
#18 ·
Maybe one could throw in the reality of the thriving sex industry, of the many "long-term" prostitute/john relationships out there that exist. Why? because the lady listens and is attentive to need, and that swings both ways, the need to be nurtured or the need to be nagged(ha).

Maybe if people were truly free to come and go in relationships, we might cherish their presence all the more. After being judged a floozy for not killing myself to stay in a marriage at all costs by those that hold monogamy so dear(which was totally absurd), I'm done with those rules.

And if that is deemed shallow and selling out, no matter, IRL the ones I love know I love them with everything I got. That is what matters, to me, that I walk in love.

Signed, Off the Marriage Grid
 
#20 ·
Sounds like some fanciful thinking with some strenuous efforts to try to make it sound academic.

It sounds like he still believes Margaret Meade and her accounts of "open marriages" and sexual activity on Samoa..............the problem.......when other anthropologists went to do follow -up studies they did not find anything like Margaret had described. When the Samoans found out what Margaret had actually written about them........they were offended and felt insulted.

Poor Margaret.......the book that made her famous........just did not prove to be true and accurate.

Sounds like this person is trying to follow in Margaret's foot-steps. :shrug:
 
#21 ·
I am not sure if I am confused or not about this statement so I'm going to repeat what I think it means and please tell me if I am right because if I am understanding it wrong I would very much like to know. What I understand from that is she basically was saying she knew she wasn't going to make it as a couple. Or was it just with that partner
Her husband had 2 women: his wife and his mistress. She meant that she would be his only woman or she would not have him.
 
#22 ·
Momma's baby, daddy's maybe. :D an old saying that is truer than most want to think about. I think men are hard wired by nature to be somewhat blinded and to raise other men's progeny. If there were paternity tests all around there would be a lot of family trees being redrawn.
 
#23 ·
Her husband had 2 women: his wife and his mistress. She meant that she would be his only woman or she would not have him.
AHH! She meant one of two women! Not one of two people in a relationship. lol Thanks Terri. I was actually very intrigued when I first read it because I thought it meant that she just "knew for certain" that she would never want to be a couple...and that was amazing to me. :D I appreciate you revealing the 'mystery'....and I'm pretty sure that everyone else "got it" except for us select few. ;)
 
#25 ·
I think a lot of the reason(trying to be, uh, hmmmm) for the present higher divorce rate is the elevated status/worth/humanness of women. Instead of a cheap view of marriage that is the usual blame given by monogamy pushers--if that were so, seriously why get married in the first place or set up house? Divorce is hell to go through emotionally and financially.

It would be interesting to compare the goings on of cultures where women had equality/were not "property".