Boerbeols are not LGD's and I would never leave him with the goats unattended. The chasing and biting when the goat runs away can quickly escalate to a dead goat. Your dog is only six months old and the goats have been there a week, even if he was a LGD I wouldn't be trusting him yet.

 

Yep...agree with Jason. That breed mix is a recipe for disaster. And 6 months old is way too young to trust even a pure LGD with stock.

 

So, I am a little concerned about contracting anyone on this site as I have read many posts that quickly turn into full blown arguments (sometimes including name calling). Can I just respectfully disagree on the potential of my dog? I have a Kangal x Boerboel that was bred by Andrew Johnston of Olympic dogs. Here is a link to his essay on the cross: http://www.olympicdogs.net/post/559569980/kangal-x-boerboel

My pup was bred to be an all around farm dog. "as good with children as livestock, as inclined to obey as to protect".

Everyone knows what amazing dogs Kangals are. Very smart, independent and excellent with livestock. They do tend to roam, tho and can be independent to a fault.

Boerboel literally translated from the Afrikaans means “big farm dog” . Andrew says, "All of mine can be trusted left alone with goats, not to mention newborn goat kids." They are very trainable and they don't roam.

In researching this dog I also came across a very helpful thread on this site. It gave me firsthand information on 2 of Andrews dogs. http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/guard-animals/432328-kangal-boerboel-mix-puppies-pets.html

I'm sure both of you would agree that the parentage of any dog plays a huge factor in the offspring. I have a pup who comes from proven parents. Proven stock guardians.

What I am hoping is that we (even if you disagree) can assume I have a dog who has the potential to be trusted. I am new to LGD's and was needing some pointers, some indications of what to look for and perhaps some next steps in conditioning my dog to be left alone with stock.

 

A "farm dog" is not the same thing as a livestock guardian. Its easy to write a history on the mix your promoting with out really testing it first. It seems beginners like to ask for advise but get mad when its not what they want to hear. Good luck I hope things work out.

 

Andrew Johnston has a reason to claim these dogs are livestock guardians....he sells them. I hate it when people want to reinvent the wheel. Livestock guardian breeds have been doing their job wonderfully for thousands of years. And then some guy comes along and claims he's going to create a NEW LGD breed by crossing in a guard dog. Boerbeols are not and never have been livestock guardians. They are good all around farm dogs, which as Jason pointed out, is NOT the same thing. These are not animals left 24/7 with livestock. Boerbeols are a breed of dog with a very large prey drive, where LGDs have almost no prey drive. So a cross between the two will result in some pups that take after one parent and some that take after the other, with no predictability or uniformity. Perhaps the folks who gave glowing reports about what a great LGD mix they are had ones that took after the LGD parent and not the Boerbeol parent. At any rate, this is a bad, bad idea.

and breed aside, there is an old saying with lgds. babies must not be with babies. In other words, do not leave that dog unsupervised with young playful stock until he is fully mature, after 2 years of age. And don't leave him unattended with ANY stock until you see no signs EVER of wanting to chase.

Also I have to agree with Jason. It's been my experience that people who come to the various LGD boards with mix breed dogs are usually very unwilling to hear the more experienced folks tell them that they made a mistake with their breed selection. I know you have money and time and don't want to hear that you have been sold a dog that may never do it's job correctly.

 

A "farm dog" is not the same thing as a livestock guardian. Its easy to write a history on the mix your promoting with out really testing it first. It seems beginners like to ask for advise but get mad when its not what they want to hear. Good luck I hope things work out.

I am sorry if I came across as defensive. I am definitely not mad. Just concerned about starting off on the right foot. I thought it was important for you to know that I was worried about getting "slammed" and ask for your patience and objectivity.
The mix I am promoting has been tested and thought it was important for you to know my dog's history.
I would absolutely love some help and answers to my specific questions. I joined this site to learn and glean from others superior experience and knowledge.

 

and breed aside, there is an old saying with lgds. babies must not be with babies. In other words, do not leave that dog unsupervised with young playful stock until he is fully mature, after 2 years of age. And don't leave him unattended with ANY stock until you see no signs EVER of wanting to chase.

Thank you for this info.

 

I have to say this. I looked at that guy's web site and he makes me absolutly sick to my stomach. Dane??? Dogo??? and he's claiming these will be good LGD? the guy just has some great marketing skills and a very slick web site. But he is creating some highly dangerous mutts. And probably really expensive ones too. he knows NOTHING about dog genetics. He talks like if you cross, you can blend temperments from each. That's like saying if you cross a white dog with a black one you will get a gray one! he is SO full of crap. Man this makes me sick.

 

CG, as others have stated, your pup may not ever be a good LGD but I think has the potential to make a good farm dog. There really is a difference.

Your pup is too young at this point to be left unsupervised with the goats (or chickens). Could you stall him next to he goats or partition their area so the pup can be with them but not have total access?

It could be 6 months to a year and a half before you know if he's going to be reliable as a LGD. Some take longer to mature than others.

Good luck with him. I would love to see pictures.

 

Thank you, Dani.
Yes, he has his kennel in the goat pen and sleeps in there at night. He spends his time during the day hanging out near their outside pen.
I love watching how his brain works. It's very clear when he is happy. As he trots toward something he likes (my husband and I, our two young boys and the goats) he puts his head in the air and sort of puffs his chest out. I also like seeing how he does not tolerate strange animals on our property. Also how he lets the chickens eat his food but won't allow our Great Dane to even look at it.
He has been raised with lots of contact with sheep, goats and chickens so I believe he was well socialized with them.

I'm not sure if the above photo will work...

 

What a cute pup!! Hope he works out for you.

 

http://www.backyardchickens.com/g/i/5538942/livestock/sort/display_order/

Edited to remove duplicate post and change picture size.

 

Thanks for the kind words, Wendle.

 

I have to say this. I looked at that guy's web site and he makes me absolutly sick to my stomach. Dane??? Dogo??? and he's claiming these will be good LGD? the guy just has some great marketing skills and a very slick web site. But he is creating some highly dangerous mutts. And probably really expensive ones too. he knows NOTHING about dog genetics. He talks like if you cross, you can blend temperments from each. That's like saying if you cross a white dog with a black one you will get a gray one! he is SO full of crap. Man this makes me sick.

You know, I've had a chance to go back and read about his Dogos and Dogo crosses. He is definitely not breeding this cross to be LGDs. Just wanted to clarify.

I personally like his reasons for crossing breeds. Of course you know that already but if you read his defense of the cross http://www.olympicdogs.net/post/559582539/defending-the-cross you will know his reasons better. Besides, wasn't it crossing dogs way back in history that got us the breeds we have now? Doesn't it make sense to breed for traits you want? I have a small acreage and appreciate an LGD that won't roam. Which, by the way, my 6 mo. old pup has done flawlessly so far.

 

The thing is, he is wrong. Hybrid vigor does not exist with f1 crosses. And yes, crossing is how purebreds were created, but it takes many many years to stabilize the genetics and create dogs that breed true. With his crosses, you have no idea what traits will be inherited from each parent. It could inherit all of the good ones from each or it could inherit all of the bad. Just as it will inherit genetic health problems from each. He is a good salesman, nothing more.

Hopefully your pup has inherited the "no roaming" trait but it's a total crap shoot. It could have just as easily inherited the roaming trait from the kangal dog. And just so you know....my Anatolian shepherd dogs (basically same as kangal dogs) don't roam either. That's what fences are made for. They don't even try to escape.

 

I dont know about your dog or the cross, everydog is different and has a persona of it's own.
Only you can make the call on them, but as someone said early on, he is young and the goats are new. SO if the goats mean anything to ya, I wouldn't bet their safety on it right off the bat. I would give it time.
Any dog can bond with stock, just like any dog can hunt hogs, but some are just way more adapted to one job more than the other.
Maybe when it warms up a little, you can bunk out there with em for a nite and see how it develops.

Maybe send a Message to Goatres
http://www.lgdnevada.com/
Some one that deals with this on the reg, good luck with your pup

 

Thank you all for the cautions and the advice. I appreciate it. I am definitely keeping them separated until I am sure.
I like your idea, Rock, I will bunk out there with them. And yes, I love the goats...such neat creatures.

 

I am anti-hybrid. I cannot stand cock-a poos, Chiweenies and all the rest of the mixed breed mutts that are sold for high dollar claiming they have hybrid vigor, hypoallergenic and etc etc. There are enough mixed breeds in the shelter waiting for homes, being put down and such that we need to create more? The man who created Labradoodles has stated he is sorry he did so due to the storm of hybrids now being cranked out.

Boerboels are not an LGD, I read that man's website and he really should be ashamed of himself. He is taking dogs with opposing qualities mixing them and claiming they are awesome. Yeah when they slaughter an entire herd of sheep I am sure he will state it was the owner's fault. Boerboels are a guard dog, they are far different from true LGD www.lgd.org
Your dog can be an all around farm dog but he should never be left alone with the animals. He is also telling you so in his behavior. Goats during warm/hot days die of heat stroke after being chase for 10-15 mins, that is all it takes. He never has to put a tooth on to them to hurt or kill them.

I am not bashing you, you maybe be new to LGD and his website sounds convincing. But he is breeding future problems of which he will not take responsibilty for if something happens.

You being in the barn at night is not going to teach him how to behave when he is alone with them.
He can be an all around farm dog and raised as such, he is not an LGD and should not be granted the same amount of responsibility or trust as a true LGD. Even people with true LGD can and do have problems with them, you can have the same or worse problems due to his being a mixed breed.

I am not trying to bash you I am just trying to warn you, because his clashing breeds can either turn out well or can cause one heck of a psycho dog.

 

For your original question. Every dog is different and it depends very much on how the dog was raised from birth and on more than the age of the dog. Our 2 Sarplaninacs were put on pasture with our sheep as soon as they were big enough not to squeeze through the woven wire. It was summer time and I was home and I spent alot of time out there with them since I was building fence. They went into their own pen at night in the shed where the sheep sleep, and were let out each morning. By the time the 2 dogs were 4-5mo they were out and about all the time "guarding" the sheep and the other live stock. we have had no issues (10mos currently). A couple years ago we had a GP that even at 2yo couldnt be trusted with the sheep unsupervised. Its really up to you to decide when your dog is ready to goto work, you have to be very vigilant in your decision, and you have to really understand what his body language is telling you, and most of all you have to be HONEST with your self rather than try to justify what the dog is doing. A rougue LGD is a very expensive dog.

As far as crosses and hybrids go.... I will agree that it is a crapshoot on what you will get. I havnt looked at the guys website yet, but i can assure you that unless he has culled heavily and has watched several generations of this cross and heavily line bred the good quailities of his stock, He has NO idea what he is getting from any litter he puts on the ground.
Your arguement of people crossing pure breds to get what they wanted is a little naive, and I dont mean that as an insult. I know of 1 kennel, breeding 1 breed of pointing dog that probly culled pups at a rate of several hundred a year over 20yrs just to get the traits that they wanted from within the same breed of dog. Designer breeds, and hybrids are not something you just decide to do, it takes several generations of a very strict breeding program to develope anything.

I truely do wish you luck and hope things work out for you.

Jim

 

Thank you, Jim.
I am really looking for this kind of info. Thank you so much for getting back to my original question. Your pointers, tips and especially examples are what help me learn what to look for.
Also, some of you may assume that because I am not hearing what I want to hear I'm not listening. I just want you to know that I respect your opinions. All I am begging for is for everyone's help on what to look for so I know if/when he is ready. Please give me your advice.
On another note, but something directly related, please can we use this thread for info only? If people are reluctant to give personal advice because they are worried others are going to use the info to rip them apart then we aren't going to learn from each other. Trust me, you will not be educating anyone by being nasty. If you must disagree please use respect and kindness. Pretend you are sitting face to face with someone.

 

If I was sitting down face to face with you, I would tell you the exact same thing I said in my thread. You need to be prepared to face this kind of information anytime you ask anyone who is serious about livestock guardian dogs and any one who is an ethical dog breeder. What this guy is doing is unconscionable. He is creating mutts for profit and passing them off as something they are not. That infuriates me beyond belief. I am sorry if my passing along info along these lines offends you. I really do hope your pup works out but please be prepared that it very well may not work out as you expect.

the only way you will know he is ready is to spend a lot of time sitting a distance from the pasture but within eye-shot and watching. watching a LOT. Supervise like crazy for a long time and be prepared for setbacks during puberty. Once the dog is two, he should be over the worst of it. The length of time and the amount of work involved are really the main reasons I would not even waste my time on a questionable mix. If the dog does not work out, you will have to get a new dog and start all over. There is nothing easy about raising a pup up to be a good LGD and starting out with one that may never work out just seems like such a horrible waste of effort and time.

 

If I was sitting down face to face with you, I would tell you the exact same thing I said in my thread. You need to be prepared to face this kind of information anytime you ask anyone who is serious about livestock guardian dogs and any one who is an ethical dog breeder. What this guy is doing is unconscionable. He is creating mutts for profit and passing them off as something they are not. That infuriates me beyond belief. I am sorry if my passing along info along these lines offends you. I really do hope your pup works out but please be prepared that it very well may not work out as you expect.

Ok. You need to know that what I am talking about is your tone and choice of words. It is not the "kind of information" or type of info that creates an inhospitable atmosphere.

As far as what you would say to me if we were face to face I have no reason not to believe you. In general, however, I am speaking about the interesting phenomenon that takes place when people are not face to face. Take driving for instance. People act completely differently behind the wheel of several thousand pounds of vehicle than they do when pushing a grocery cart. I see far less people cutting each other off, tailgating or flipping each other the bird in Safeway then I do on the freeway in downtown San Diego.

As far as the slick salesman that Andrew Johnston is, I do not have firsthand knowledge that would prove this or not. I found this puppy on craigslist and bought him from a couple who had two of his puppies and couldn't decide between them. So they bought both. They finally decided to sell the male when they found out they had to move from their farm to a different one that already had enough LGDs. I did my research on the breeds and am comfortable with them. I am thrilled with my puppy and have since spoken to Mr. Johnston a couple times now on the phone. He is humble and soft spoken. I happen to like what he thinks about many issues. Feeding, training and breeding. You are welcome to disagree. We are all clear on why you do.

I believe you that you hope this dog works out for me. You are right, it is my personal decision as to whether he is worth my time or not. Your info and direction on what to watch for is what I need.

I appreciate your specific help very much. I am a stay at home mom who loves to garden and work with my hands. I suspect that I will be outside a great deal and will supervise my little heart out!

 

There is no tone on the internet, word choice may bother you but if you ask advice not all of it will be positive or what you want to hear.

People are always advertising things like Great Pyr mixed with Aussie, great guardian dog! Yeah these are people who have not bothered to alter any of the dogs on their property and have mutt puppies. How is a high energy herding dog mixed with a low prey dog going to be a good LGD? The answer is it is not.

A member on here got a Pyr mixed with Great Dane, that is not a true LGD and he was chewing on the lamb or goat kid's leg shows that mix is not going to work out.

Your puppy chasing and biting at the goat kid is a warning to you about his behavior as well as pulling out chicken feathers. I am not a expert on LGD and have only had them for 5 yrs now, so not horribly long but my boys tolerate goat kids jumping on them, grazing on their fur, the kids run and bounce and play all around them and my dogs do not react at all, they lay there and take it. This is the way they have been since puppies. They also have not been allowed to lick or put their mouths on goats- ever. I tolerate no chasing what so ever, aside from heat stroke risks it just it not allowed. They have never shown an inclination to chase anyway. That is part of their breed traits and it is just not so for the Boerboels.
Mine are huge white speed bumps who only react to coyotes howling, my guineas screaming a warning and such.

He is yours and you are free to do what you want with him, we are warning you based on experience and cross breeding issues. I would have him be an all around farm dog, and not an LGD. It protects your animals from predators but it also protects them from him. If you use him as an LGD and he turns out to be a problem dog I hope you contact the breeder and let him know that mix is not as awesome as he portrays. I really hope nothing happens and keep in mind that he will learn from you being out there to correct him but when he is unattended he will know it and his behavior may differ.


Teddy brought inside to calm down after a run in with the neighbor's ill behaved dog, he is playing jungle gym for a bottle kid.

 

Thai, I'm going to disagree with you that chasing goats or sheep and pulling feathers off chickens is a sign of a pup that will not make a lgd.

That is the reason so many say you have to supervise until they are up to 2 years old. Until then, they are puppies and will act like puppies.

CG, that is a handsome pup!

 

Check your PM's. :lonergr: