[Doug Hodges]

Back the first of April I sold 5 doelings to a lady from Louisiana for $350 each. All registered. Cleos triplets and two spotted girls. They would be to pick them up at the end of the month. I asked for $150 each to hold them. She sent the deposit. Toward the end of April, two of them developed scours two days before they were to pick them up. I immediately contacted them and told them and I also did a fecal and it was confirmed Coccidia. I dosed with toltrazuril and the next morning they were fine. The couple was up here anyway the next day and I said the scours were cleared up and they should be fine. They said they were making another trip up here in two weeks. I said OK. I would hold them. Then her husband got sick and had surgery and then this happened and that. After two months she asked for her deposits back. I told her that if I sold them for enough to cover the cost of feeding them and all the hassle that I would send a portion back. Last month, I traded two of them off. No cash changed hands. I was just lightening the feed bill. Today, she contacted me and wanted to come pick up the 5 girls and pay me the remainder of the agreement we had back in April. I don't even know what to say. Its cost me more than $750 to raise them for 5 months. The 3 remaining are big good looking girls and are big enough to breed this year. Im thinking of offering her these 3 plus 2 more for an additional $350 each. (keep the $750 for my troubles and give her a discount. I wouldn't sell these 5 big girls at this time for $350 each otherwise) Three are January girls and two are March girls. What would you do? I assumed she forfeited her deposit when she didn't come back and get them in April. She acted like in her message that no time had passed and I should just raise them for her for 5 months and expect nothing. Wow!!! What the ...............................????????????????????

 

[FakeMountainMan]

Do you use a contract for these types of arrangements? I would, or go strict cash and carry. Handshake deals can go sour real easy.

 

[Doug Hodges]

I didnt use contracts but I have everything in writing through text messages and emails. In the future I guess I should start using a contract. The following is off my website.

Deposits are non refundable. They can be transferred or refunded if your doe or buck isn't born. Babies are expected to be picked up at 3 weeks of age. I like to give them their first dose of Coccidia prevention and worm medicine. If you would like for me to hold them longer. That can be arranged for a fee.

 

[dozedotz]

I remember this, Doug...we talked about it when we dropped off the girls and then later at the show in MO. My feeling then and now is that she should have offered to pay you for their room and board. I thought it was good of you to keep them for her due to the "emergencies." Whatever that room and board = what she should pay IMO.

 

[Doug Hodges]

Gosh. I pour the feed to them. They eat nonstop. I suspect they eat a bag or two a week. I know I go through 200 to 300 lbs a week for 15 of them. That's 13 something a bag for 20 plus weeks. That doesn't count all the meds, copper, BoSe, clippings, alfalfa, etc etc.


http://www.spottednubian.com/index.html

 

[CraterCove]

I agree wholeheartedly with Dozedotz. If she wants them now she needs to pay the board for the goats for the duration you have had them. Does anyone know if a disclaimer or terms on a website is solid in court? This actually might affect many of us who have not used contracts but have written terms on their website and/or ads when we have sold livestock.

I am sorry you are in this complicated situation, I hope she understands.

 

[Davstep]

Yes Doug, based on your first post, the potential buyer forfeited her deposit when she did not pick them up on the 1st or 2nd agreed date. Written contract or not. The contracts really don't do anything legally. She prevented you from potentially selling to someone else and cost you more in the end.

Cash sales on first come basis is the best way, or no live sales. I'm sure many here have the same experiences I have. No more deposits to hold or promises of pick up dates.

 

[secuono]

You sold two away from her, trade or cash, doesn't matter. She paid for those two, so if you replace with two others, you should not charge her a dime. If she doesn't want two others, then she pays the rest that was owed for the original three that are still there. If you had given her money back for those two you sold, then she would have to pay that money back for two new ones.

Always make deposits non-refundable unless the animal gets sick or dies in your care. If you sell them while she is still trying to work out a way to get them, then that is your fault. And your choices are to either only sell her the original three or to offer two others as true replacements.

I don't grain feed mine, massive waste of money and time when there is perfectly good pasture for my sheep. So I don't mind people taking a long time to pick up their lambs, as long as it's not winter and as long as we don't have the "forfeiting deposit" talk. You need to make the forfeiting clear to people, never assume anything, that's the fastest way to end up in a huge mess.

Go ahead and tell her your plan and fees. But I would assume she will be pissed off at you and either forfeit them or she will demand her original three goats for the original sum of money.

But it seems like you have nothing in the way of pasture and you can only grain. Do you have any written policy on your website or wherever you posted them for sale or when she called, did you tell her that they Must be picked up by X date or you would charge X fees for keeping them longer?

 

[Doug Hodges]

You sold two away from her, trade or cash, doesn't matter. She paid for those two, so if you replace with two others, you should not charge her a dime. If she doesn't want two others, then she pays the rest that was owed for the original three that are still there. If you had given her money back for those two you sold, then she would have to pay that money back for two new ones.

Always make deposits non-refundable unless the animal gets sick or dies in your care. If you sell them while she is still trying to work out a way to get them, then that is your fault. And your choices are to either only sell her the original three or to offer two others as true replacements.

I don't grain feed mine, massive waste of money and time when there is perfectly good pasture for my sheep. So I don't mind people taking a long time to pick up their lambs, as long as it's not winter and as long as we don't have the "forfeiting deposit" talk. You need to make the forfeiting clear to people, never assume anything, that's the fastest way to end up in a huge mess.

Go ahead and tell her your plan and fees. But I would assume she will be pissed off at you and either forfeit them or she will demand her original three goats for the original sum of money.

That makes absolutely no sense. I told her this on June 26th.


Right now I haven't covered the extra costs of feeding them all this time. I still have 4 of the 5 if you want to pay the remainder and pick them up. The $150 deposit each hardly pays for all the extra feed and time I've cared for them. Best case at this point would be a refund of $250 if I sold them. However selling time is earlier in the year. Deposits are non refundable. I did say if I sold them for enough to recoup my loss, that I would refund you part of the deposit. That hasn't happened. Sorry.



http://www.spottednubian.com/index.html

 

[Doug Hodges]

She told me this on may 30th.

We are still not able to come. Had to cancel our camping trip. I absolutely HATE to let them go, but understand your position. You have been more patient with me than I would have been. If you can sell them- go ahead because at this point I'm not sure when we'll be able to get up there. I'm so sorry.....


http://www.spottednubian.com/index.html

 

[Doug Hodges]

Also from April 25th to May 13 she never answered a message. I finally asked if she had fallen off the face of the earth.


http://www.spottednubian.com/index.html

 

[Doug Hodges]

And then this message on May 13th.

My family has a ton going on at the moment. The plan is Sunday June 1, but my husband was in ER today with complications from his surgery, my 3 yr old had emergency surgery this morning and my uncle has had 2 massive stokes and is hanging on in ICU , so definite plans are a little difficult at the moment....


http://www.spottednubian.com/index.html

 

[CraterCove]

"Always make deposits non-refundable unless the animal gets sick or dies in your care. If you sell them while she is still trying to work out a way to get them, then that is your fault. And your choices are to either only sell her the original three or to offer two others as true replacements."

She delayed twice and he incurs further feed and care costs, she forfeits her deposit. Just because you manage your herd in a way that means no additional feed doesn't mean that everyone has to.

However, If I was in Doug's position, because she seems to be understanding about the situation, I might refund part of the deposit on them... if I could afford to.

 

[Doug Hodges]

The above message on May 30th was the last message except for wondering if I had sold them and they could get a partial deposit back on June 25th until today. See I keep all correspondence. That's when I responded on June 26th. That's over 2 months with absolutely no contact.


http://www.spottednubian.com/index.html

 

[where I want to]

I'm afraid a deposit is to hold the goats. If she backed out, then the deposit is gone but if you sold the goat without contacting her first, then you owe her the deposit back.
There were some kerfuffles along the way but she apparently agreed to lose her deposit in the middle of June. Although it might be she just acquiesced to your statement.
So at that point, it seemed to be zeroed out except for your agreement to send her back the difference between their keep and the new sale price. But then you traded away two of them for no money but what value you got from that is unknown.

So the 5 goat deal is done. You still owe her the difference between the remain three sales price and cost of those three's feed. If that is gone, then her deposit is gone. If there is something left, then it can be taken off the reasonble price of those three. Therefore you are made whole on the three, if she chooses to move forward.

The two that were traded away need some calculation as to the value you got in trade, the amount of feed cost til you traded them- once you have that, that is the amount of deposit refund you promised her if money is left over.. You could take that off the sales price of the replacement two if any. Again. You are made whole on the missed deal.

Having said that, you have to decide if the money you can get from this convoluted sale is worth having a maybe angry customer who will spread her side of the story or you can be more generous as you see fit. Your choice totally. I tend to favor a break if one can be found that is acceptable to both for future good will. You can never tell when that will come back many times over.

And vow always to have a signed contract in the future.

 

[Squeaky McMurdo]

Oh Hell no. Since they got sick when she was going to pick them up, I would have given them until weaning at the latest to figure it out or forfeit deposit. After weaning the price goes up no matter what sob story I'm given. I may honor the deposit depending on the situation but the price still goes up. You are being more than kind offering a discount in addition to that.

 

[punchiepal]

Deposits are non refundable. They can be transferred or refunded if your doe or buck isn't born. Babies are expected to be picked up at 3 weeks of age. I like to give them their first dose of Coccidia prevention and worm medicine. If you would like for me to hold them longer. That can be arranged for a fee.

Since it is on your website what does your "fee" to hold them for her come to added to the original price you gave her? Is it about what you would want to charge for them now? For example if your "fee" would be $50 a month X 5 months = $250+350=$600 is that close to what you are considering selling them for?

I would also be considering putting them up for sale on your website so she can "see" that you are really seriously gonna charge xx for them at their age now. I don't think I would offer them bred or exposed for this sale. Better to get it a done deal.

Maybe add - Goats will be held for a maximum of 30 days after 3 weeks old or from the date deposit received, after that all deposits are forfeited and applied to boarding costs.

 

[farmmaid]

A deposit is just that, $ to hold an item. If you sold the two AFTER the second failed pick-up, you owe her nothing! BUT....if you want to sell the other three for the balance due on the original price PLUS board money, to get them gone, that might work for you both.

 

[yarrow]

ah.. the rough waters of the wonderful world of deposits... (I refuse to take deposits.. I don't want other folks money nor do I want to be *trapped* in a situation like Doug is now finding himself.. so many different ways to look at this... the gal actually DID show up when she was suppose to.. the two kids had been scouring.. I know I would NOT have gone thru with the pickup of sick kids (or kids who had just been sick the day before)... this all took place months ago.. are you sure what you had on your new website when??? you've changed it so many times.. I wasn't sure when that part appeared.. (I do however think it's way beyond normal to think she is just going to waltz in and get the five kids this far down the line) Since I don't take deposits I make sure my buyers & I have a clearly understood pickup day.. I know things can happen and buyers might not be able to make that day.. but..I will let them reschedule.. but I let them know I'll sell that kid to someone else if they don't show.. since it's not really their kid, until money exchanges hands.. I also expect kids to be paid for before pickup.. unless it's someone I'm okay doing a payment plan with..again.. details always worked out ahead of time..>>>

BUT.. let me throw out what happened to me this spring and gets everyone's take on it.. as many of you know I had deposits down on 3 kids from Wy (plus deposits for 3 more for 2015 at $100 a pop).. all 3 kids were born (2 does & a buckling)... we made the drive out west delivering our kids to our buyers and picking up the kids I bought on the way back.. (I had paid my deposits for 2014 kids BEFORE breeding season even began.. I paid IN FULL the day each kid was born).. oldest kid I was picking up was six weeks..(website says pick up by 6 weeks or boarding fee applies).. youngest kid was less then a month old.. I let them pick which day worked best for them for us to pick up on, in Cody.. the day before I was to arrive I get a phone call telling me that one of my paid in full doelings had died of entro.. To say I was in a state of shock.. is an understatement.. it was a short phone call far from a tower.. I was leary about picking up any.. in case they too were sick, but we went ahead and arrived the next morning to get the remaining kids.. we starting talking money and it was agreed that the doeling died by no fault of mine (heck, I'd never even gotten a picture of her)..HOWEVER.. they would not give me a refund, (I wanted my purchase money back .. (but would have liked to have also gotten back my 3 deposits.. since their 2014 kidding season wasn't even over yet).. that was a no go..BUT they would apply my purchase price towards the purchase of a 2015 doeling.. that I already had paid my deposit on.. so my $475 PLUS the $300 for deposits.. I wasn't thrilled.. but they weren't budging on giving me back my money for the doeling that died.. months go by .. I spend most of may, all of june/july and most of aug thinking I have $775 there to use to buy 2015 kids.. get a call a couple weeks ago.. turns out they have decided the only FAIR thing to do is for us (me & them) to SPLIT the cost of the kid (that died in their care before I got to their house, on the day they chose for pick up).. oh, but they'll pick up the larger end of the loss... giving me a $5 break (in other words.. I only lost $235 for nothing instead of $240 lol) so I now have $540 tied up in future kid purchases from them.. I'll wait and see if anything is born that I want to spend yet more money on.. (flying it in).. or if I just cut my losses and bail out completely... the doeling I brought home from them is okay..but I seriously doubt I ever use the buckling.. just not my cup of tea.. too dainty and fine for my liking..

I know that if the situation would have been reversed.. I would have refunded the dead doeling's purchase price in full!!! never would I feel right about keeping someone else's money for nothing in return..

Like I said.. everyone's take on deposits and such is different..

susie

 

[Doug Hodges]

Holy crap Susie. That's frickin ridiculous. I can't believe they held you responsible for a goat dying in their care.

As for me trading/selling the two. I only did that after she told me she wasn't going to be able to make it and for me to go ahead and sell them to someone else. I turned down cash money on one occasion from someone standing here trying to buy them because I was still trying to help this person out.


http://www.spottednubian.com/index.html