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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, here's a first swipe at a list of ingredients we may want to include in a home ration. We'll be wanting to look at each of these closely for nutrient analysis. I know I've missed some that we have talked about and am hoping for other suggestions. Let's not worry about the redundancy at this point... naturally we are not going to include three kinds of salt/mineral products. We are only compiling a list to look at the merits of possible ingredients. I hope this approach makes sense to the rest of you interested in this project. Feel free to suggest a different approach if you feel it is better.

Alfalfa hay – high grade
Alfalfa/grass hay
Timothy hay
Oat hay
Grass hay
Alfalfa pellets

Oats
Barley
Wheat
Corn
Rye?
Milo
Millet
Sorghum


Black oil sunflower seeds
Flax
Buckwheat
Field peas
Green peas
Soybeans (roasted or steamed)
Peanuts (roasted)?


Salt
Natural Mineral salts
Mineral blocks
Blackstrap molasses
Kelp
Wheat germ
 

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aka avdpas77
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Seems like a great list.

It would be great to have something like this to make selections from, especially with the differences in easy availablity, around the country. Furthermore, it would be of economic help as grains seem to be going through periods of dramatic up and downs in price, and the more varied the selection, the more our alternatives.

I know I harp a bit on having as much of a variety in the grains as possible.
With the attention you give to greens, Maggie, you are going to have the vitamin/mineral thing covered more that most of us. Providing fresh greens in abundance on a daily basis, though, will not be practical for many of us on a consistant basis. I know that back when I was trying to consistently trying to supplement my rabbits with a green diet, even in the summer, there were too many other "emergencies" that would pop up and require immediate attention (for example lambing, hurt animals, family things) that would basically put one on the "no time except for feed and water" mode.

I might suggest a few other grains, if no one has already found them unsatisfactory. Milo for one, though pehaps it is too small for rabbits to eat easily.

While all field peas have about the same nutritional values (including "dried" green peas) I suspect they taste quite different. I know the animals I currently feed peas, don't particularly like green peas, and prefer "maple" peas
to the "yellow" or "canadian" peas. I guess one might also include lentils, field or horse beans (don't know anything about these other than both people and animals eat them in lots of places). I suspect there is a problem with most beans, or one would see them fed more often.

Do you think there is anyway we can do some kind of "online" databse?
One breeder having a bad experience with one breed in one place is usually not much proof of anything. But if we would end up with diverse breeders having problems with a certain item, it would be nice to be able to show it in the list.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks, O&itw. I added some of your suggestions and a couple of other items. I also put in mention that soybeans must be cooked... likewise other beans. Beans in general I think we can pass on, unless someone really wants them, but soybeans seem too useful and generally used to ignore. I've added some question marks to a few items, pending further information.

I wouldn't know how to do a database. There are only a couple dozen items... surely in time we will become familiar enough with their properties to work without one. Unless you're volunteering? Can you tell I'm not a numbers/statistics person? :rolleyes:
 

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aka avdpas77
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Thanks, O&itw. I added some of your suggestions and a couple of other items. I also put in mention that soybeans must be cooked... likewise other beans. Beans in general I think we can pass on, unless someone really wants them, but soybeans seem too useful and generally used to ignore. I've added some question marks to a few items, pending further information.

I wouldn't know how to do a database. There are only a couple dozen items... surely in time we will become familiar enough with their properties to work without one. Unless you're volunteering? Can you tell I'm not a numbers/statistics person? :rolleyes:

I would be happy to do the data base and post it. It should be kept at the top of a page so people don't have to search for the newest addition. The trouble with that is, it seems like after a few days one can't edit one's post.
I post on another "jelsoft" board, and one can edit any post they ever made.
Things like this we would simply keeping editing the first post with the new information. I don't know the moderators here... maybe if we talk to them they could make that possible.
 

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it would seem to me the important part of this is to make feed changes slowly, not only during the initial change from pellets to home mixed. But every time you change feed.
If you find a different grain for less money or a grain you are feeding becomes in short supply, you still need to change rations slowly.
I was feeding crimped oats with pellets, but they had a sale on COB with a 5 pound bonus bag so we slowly switcrhed to the COB.
By mixing the 2 a little more each day or 2.
 

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aka avdpas77
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aka avdpas77
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it would seem to me the important part of this is to make feed changes slowly, not only during the initial change from pellets to home mixed. But every time you change feed.
If you find a different grain for less money or a grain you are feeding becomes in short supply, you still need to change rations slowly.
I was feeding crimped oats with pellets, but they had a sale on COB with a 5 pound bonus bag so we slowly switcrhed to the COB.
By mixing the 2 a little more each day or 2.
er.....maybe we need a abbreviations dictionary too. I got BOSS down....
what is COB?:confused:

If we can work this out to be able to edit the first post "ad infinitum"
Maybe we can make the 2nd post " common sense rules" and be able to add to it also.

There are several rules that we should all automaticaly think about, but new timers may not have learned them and us OF are not immune to having a "senior' moment. :eek:
 

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Great start Maggie!

many of these look like higher-energy winter/storage type rations, I was thinking of getting some more info on things like growing summer/forage/ living foods for the warmer months

Sweet potato leaves
prickly pear cactus pads
young soybean hay (pre-bean)

For grains:
milo/ grain sorghum/****** corn?

and im excited about this too: inulin is the storage starch from Chicory and Jerusalem Artichoke roots (just take out the page break). Some inulin in the diet looks like it may be a good thing too!

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/jpn/2008/00000092/00000002/
art00001;jsessionid=t0jfq1hjc1y5.alexandra?format=print
 

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er.....maybe we need a abbreviations dictionary too. I got BOSS down....
what is COB?:confused:

If we can work this out to be able to edit the first post "ad infinitum"
Maybe we can make the 2nd post " common sense rules" and be able to add to it also.

There are several rules that we should all automaticaly think about, but new timers may not have learned them and us OF are not immune to having a "senior' moment. :eek:


COB is Corn, Oats, Barley
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I agree, SquashNut, that all changes need to be made slowly. I've always advocated that.

O&itw, If there are people new to the forum and/or new to rabbits they need to understand that this is a working thread where we are discussing possibilities. The initial list is NOT meant to be a recommendation for feeding rabbits in its present form.

Garnetmoth, those are interesting ideas for fresh foods and I'd love to see them suggested in one of the sticky threads. I know I neglected fresh foods in this thread, but I'm thinking it may be best to keep the three areas of natural feeding (hay/"greens"/concentrates) separate for the moment. Even dealing with one segment at a time makes my head spin sometimes. :stars: It may have been a mistake to include hay and alfalfa here as well... but since many people rely on alfalfa hay or pellets to boost protein it "seemed a good idea at the time" to include them.
 

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aka avdpas77
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Maggie,

I am trying to come up with a table that will fit on the page.

I am not sure all that we want to include...so I need some input on that

I can add other feedstuffs as we come across them.

ex.

oops, the thread will not let me post at table, I am going to have to find a web site to post it on and use a link I guess.

Ok then these are the column headings I have so far:

a) feedstuff or supplement
b) % protein
c) % fat
d) % carbohydrate
e) palatability
d) hazzards
e) special instuctions

comments, suggestions, additions, deletions?
 

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aka avdpas77
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I agree, SquashNut, that all changes need to be made slowly. I've always advocated that.

O&itw, If there are people new to the forum and/or new to rabbits they need to understand that this is a working thread where we are discussing possibilities. The initial list is NOT meant to be a recommendation for feeding rabbits in its present form.

Garnetmoth, those are interesting ideas for fresh foods and I'd love to see them suggested in one of the sticky threads. I know I neglected fresh foods in this thread, but I'm thinking it may be best to keep the three areas of natural feeding (hay/"greens"/concentrates) separate for the moment. Even dealing with one segment at a time makes my head spin sometimes. :stars: It may have been a mistake to include hay and alfalfa here as well... but since many people rely on alfalfa hay or pellets to boost protein it "seemed a good idea at the time" to include them.
Maybe I can do two tables, one with "dried" feedstuffs, one with "green" feedstufs.

Also, I think we need to include "field grade alfalfa hay", and possibly rape seed/canola. Some of these feedstuffs like the BOSS and the peas (pulse) are fairly inexpensive in areas where they are locally grown. Canada, Colorado, and the Dakotas, for instance, are major growers of field peas and while they may be too expensive in other places, they may be a good choice diretly from farmers.

I have always used local "field grade" alfalfa. While it is close to 100% alfalfa, it is a far cry from the bright green leafy "thoroughbred horse" alfalfa they grow under irrigation. I suspect that the "horse-grade" alfalfa is basically the same quality as alfalfa cubes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
O&itw, I need to mull things over for a bit... and I have to get some other things done as well. A website for natural feeding is not a bad idea... we could mess around with this stuff without clogging this forum and post links as needed. But right now I need a "time out" to cogitate.

If we do three tables, one for hay/roughage, one for green feed and one for concentrates that might be best of all. The proportions of the three do change some with the seasons, so it might be best to treat them as separate entities.
 

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That's cool Maggie, go ahead and take a break.
if no one minds we'll just keep working on this, cause I think we're gonna need to know how to feed all these buns on the cheap sooner than you think.
i don't see oat hay on the list. That's what we're using this year. The rabbit like it and there is very little waste compared to the grass hay we used last year.
 

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This is a great list, Maggie! And the nutrient link is good, too!. Now, what nutrients (besides protein) do we need to pay specific attention to for rabbits? And how much do they need of each?
 

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aka avdpas77
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O&itw, I need to mull things over for a bit... and I have to get some other things done as well. A website for natural feeding is not a bad idea... we could mess around with this stuff without clogging this forum and post links as needed. But right now I need a "time out" to cogitate.

If we do three tables, one for hay/roughage, one for green feed and one for concentrates that might be best of all. The proportions of the three do change some with the seasons, so it might be best to treat them as separate entities.
Sounds good... after today, my workload, and life is going to get back to being too busy. I will start on the tables as time permits, you seem to already have a lot of the information in bits and pieces. Others are experimenting to provide some more solid information in the various grains.

Those of us that will not to be able to feed "greens" to the extent you do, will have to moniter things long term, becuase even with the proper F,P,C and roughage... it may take a few months to notice a vitamin or mineral inadequacy. I can do the tables...my main concern right now is a way to post them. While I am unable at this point to contribute, you and others are doing excellent work to fill in the information. It is "back to the grind" for many of us tomorrow. I apologize if I was pushing this too hard. I knew that my searching/reading time was comming to an end to a great extent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
That's cool Maggie, go ahead and take a break.
if no one minds we'll just keep working on this, cause I think we're gonna need to know how to feed all these buns on the cheap sooner than you think.
i don't see oat hay on the list. That's what we're using this year. The rabbit like it and there is very little waste compared to the grass hay we used last year.
I've added oat hay, SquashNut. I'll still be around, just have to keep some money coming in... so a little more attention to our eBay sales is necessary right now.

This is a great list, Maggie! And the nutrient link is good, too!. Now, what nutrients (besides protein) do we need to pay specific attention to for rabbits? And how much do they need of each?
This is one of the things I have to check into. I may have the cart before the horse starting with the list of possible ingredients. I have to do some heavy reading on rabbit nutrition before I could answer this question. Here is one of the documents, if anyone wants to help:

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=35&page=9

Sounds good... after today, my workload, and life is going to get back to being too busy. I will start on the tables as time permits, you seem to already have a lot of the information in bits and pieces. Others are experimenting to provide some more solid information in the various grains.

Those of us that will not to be able to feed "greens" to the extent you do, will have to moniter things long term, becuase even with the proper F,P,C and roughage... it may take a few months to notice a vitamin or mineral inadequacy. I can do the tables...my main concern right now is a way to post them. While I am unable at this point to contribute, you and others are doing excellent work to fill in the information. It is "back to the grind" for many of us tomorrow. I apologize if I was pushing this too hard. I knew that my searching/reading time was comming to an end to a great extent.
No, don't apologize... enthusiasm from others fuels me! I was just beginning to feel the day had got away from me... well, it has but I can still retrieve some of it by working this evening. We rely on our eBay sales for our income, so I do have to do some of it each day.
 

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is there any way to make those NAP books larger font? its killing my eyes, but looks really neat!
 
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