Wolf dog challenge

Discussion in 'Working and Companion Animals' started by Wolf mom, Aug 13, 2006.

  1. Wolf mom

    Wolf mom Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,297
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Location:
    Appalachian Foothills
    I have a year & a half old wolf dog that has been a very good pet with me as his pack leader.

    Recently he's found he can push the other two dogs (+ - 70 pounds each) around and is becoming more agressive with them. One has taken to living in the bathroom to stay away from him. Even when he's playing with them, he plays to dominate.

    He's also trying to displace my older, favorite dog and has begun fighting with him when they play ball together.

    Any suggestions as to how to handle this new found agression? Not with me, as I won't tollerate any challenge, but with the other dogs?

    I feed him last, make him sit before he gets fed, etc. but don't know how to hande the agression with the other dogs.

    PS. I'm gone to work all day, so there'll be a lot of interaction I won't be able to monitor.
     
  2. americanbulldog

    americanbulldog American Hunter

    Messages:
    369
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2005
    Location:
    Quiet Corner of CT
    Please whatever you do keep the dogs apart when you are not there. I don't want to scare you but you could come home to a deadly blood bath if things go wrong. If you need to crate them (or some of them) when you are not there -- please do it. It isn't worth the risk.
    By the way be prepared because the dog might start to challenge you in the future if it comes to think it is powerful enough. It does happen sometimes and you might need to deal with it. Good luck.
     

  3. Songbird

    Songbird Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,787
    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2006
    Location:
    Northwest Missouri
    What americanbulldog said.
     
  4. james dilley

    james dilley Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    5,067
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2004
    Location:
    deep south texas
    You might need to find him A new home, As he can hurt you if not carefull. I hope there are NO small kids in the house. As the dog might injure them.Playing.. Is there anyway you can get him A exersise unit like A horse walker. That might tire him out ,And then help settle him. What About training?????????????????
     
  5. jill.costello

    jill.costello Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,540
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2004
    Location:
    Ocala, FL
    My best friend of twenty years is a Wildlife Biologist and has a smashing Timber wolf/Arctic wolf/Malemute Hybrid named Zephyr. She told me years and years ago that "the day of reckoning" would come someday between her and Zep.

    The age of 2-3 is the time in a young male wolf's life when he will be testing his mettle in order to fight for and win his own pack. This often involves fighting up the "chain of status" to the current leader.

    Sure enough, Zep started bullying old Cosack (8 yr old Black Lab) and then one day actually lifted his lip to my friend as she tried to take a toy away.

    She went berzerk on him.(calculated, on purpose, planned-berzerk). She screamed bloody murder while she threw herself on his back, wrapped her legs around his waist, and held him in a head-lock. She twisted with him so he and her fell over to the side. She growled and squeezed and slapped his muzzle with a free hand until all he wanted to do was run; there was no fight left in him.

    I know this sounds very hash, and possibly "cruel" to some, but it is the way of the wolves to establish permanent dominance. Being pack animals, after a "thrashing" like that one, Zephyr was only too happy to take his place in the "family pack" as "Mr. #3" for the rest of his days.

    I just recently was back in my hometown for a visit, and stayed with my friend, and got all the wolfie-lovin' I could handle from 'ol Zep, who is 16 years young, now. He has been a great pet, but I am sure that in a different family, he could have been trouble if he hadn't gotten the "lesson" in "his language".
     
  6. suburbanite

    suburbanite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,596
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2006
    Location:
    N. Calif./was USDA 9b before global warming
    I suggest that you find the complete DVD set "the dog whisperer" featuring Cesar Milan, buy it, and watch it obsessively. It is a show on National Geographic channel and often deals with situations like those you are facing. Sometimes they have a call for new people and dogs to come on the show, if you continue to have worries that might be an option for you.
     
  7. MARYDVM

    MARYDVM Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    777
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    There is no way you can force the hybrid to be subordinate to dogs he knows are weaker than him. He will fight until either they submit to him or he kills them.
     
  8. MaineFarmMom

    MaineFarmMom Columnist, Feature Writer

    Messages:
    4,568
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Location:
    Maine
    I had a dog put down on New Year's Eve for this reason. He wasn't part wolf. I did it because he wasn't trustworthy. If I hadn't made the choice I did he might have killed one of my dogs or been killed by the other two. No dog needs to go through that blood bath.

    I never, with strong emphasis on never, felt he would be a threat to anyone, until the day he proved me wrong. By the way he took on my other dogs I thought it was just a matter of time before he lifted that lip or growled at a person. I hated to do it but no amount of training was working. He's gone and I still miss him but the house is a much more peaceful, less stressful place. It is a relief. He deserved a humane end rather than being shredded by the other dogs. That's no way for anything, be it dominate or submissive, to die.

    Giving the dog to someone else was not an option for me. There was no way I could give the dog to someone on the thought that "he'll be an only dog." What if someone walked their dog up the street past this dog? What if he wandered? A dog's life is not worthy of someone or something's safety.

    Good luck. I hope you have a safe, responsible and happy ending.
     
  9. Tango

    Tango Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,205
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Location:
    Florida
    Everyone has given you good advice. AB, Jill, and Mary gave you food for thought as well when it comes to a wolfdog. You are beginning to face the biggest problem wolfdog owners face, the time when their male begins to come into his own. It is a natural part of a wolf's life and it is brutal. He can and may kill your dogs and you will also be challenged. Crate him when you are not at home. There is no amount of training that will keep the chalenge from happening unfortunately. Just be prepared and don't trust him. However much of a good boy he seems, the wolf blood will boil at sexual maturity. Not intending to scare you but if you lose the challenge, he will probably have to be put down or sent to a wolfdog rescue with space.
     
  10. Wolf mom

    Wolf mom Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,297
    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Location:
    Appalachian Foothills
    SIGH...

    I hear what you're all saying. I seldom have to correct him when I do, I use the same correction that Jill does if it's a major infraction. I usually just have to growl - & he slinks off out the dog door.

    One thing I just read in this forum is not having him in the bedroom. Out he goes as of tonight!

    He won't tollerate being caged, but I do have an outside run he can stay in while I'm at work and I can keep the other dogs in the house.

    I've heard of the dog whisperer, but unfortunately I only have basic satellite, so can't get the NG channel. I'll look on e-bay.

    Just like a 2 year old - I'll have to stay 3 steps ahead of him. He has 5 acres and the forrest to run in, but seems to prefer to stay near me. Guess I'll make sure I take him for a hike every evening.

    When does this challenging slow down? Does it ever stop? :help:
     
  11. mizattitude

    mizattitude Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    403
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    I think it should be said that "dog aggressive' is NOT the same as "people aggressive". Its pack behavior. However, no "underdog" would be allowed to fight without the alphas permission. If he is showing aggression to other dogs..he is jockeying for alpha status. He/she needs correction from the true alpha <YOU> everytime he does that. We are talking swift and harsh correction. Would not hurt to keep them all separated at all times. They don't need to form a "pack". Of course it is true that unless you take care of this, the dog may turn on you. You will need to exert your alpha status over him...or find him a dominant owner who can.
    18-30 months is the time they start feeling the need to try their luck and push their position up a notch.
     
  12. mizattitude

    mizattitude Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    403
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Doesn't matter if he doesn't like being caged...YOU control when, where, how and IF. Once he knows he is not in control you will have less problems with him.
    Forget the "dog whisperer"...read about pack behavior.
     
  13. momlaffsalot

    momlaffsalot Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,398
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Location:
    Kansas
    The Dog Whisperer is all about 'pack mentality'. He has a book out too, which is very informative. Do try to find it. It might help.
     
  14. Tango

    Tango Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,205
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Location:
    Florida
    It will stop when the hierarchy is established to the point he knows without question that he is in his proper position. It may resurface with any new dog introduction or if one of your other dogs doesn't follow protocol. I can't remember when my male Aries challenged me for the first time - he was between 1 and 2 - it came out of nowhere and he was vicious. He could have killed my other dogs and pretty much pulverized one of them with dozens of deep punctures. But he stopped short of killing anyone. If your other dogs are showing submission and he continues, he could be one of the wolfdogs that are "not well in the head." His dna scramble might be fried. Some are like that and it will show up at about this time. Just be prepared, you knew this would happen one day and its standard fare for all male wolfdogs.
     
  15. mizattitude

    mizattitude Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    403
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    The dog whisperer is not about pack mentality. Not sure *** he is talking about...here is an excerpt about the "dominant dog Myth" <according to the dog whisperer....

    There is no “one dog rules all” pack mentality. The best way to view your role in your dog’s life is as a member of his family—and the dog as a member of your family. Just as parents and children have different roles in the family, so, too, humans and dogs have different roles. But we’re all part of the same family. In nonviolent dog training, you are not out to compete or “win” anything. There are no “commands” and no threats. Instead, you give your dog “signals” and reinforce his correct “responses.” You are learning from each other how to work together.



    Placing human emotions on dogs who are instinctive animals is dangerous.
     
  16. momlaffsalot

    momlaffsalot Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,398
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Location:
    Kansas
    Wow! Is that from the 'dog whisperer'? I just finished his book and it was all about pack mentality and how HE is the alpha and they are not allowed to challenge that and how he can take thirty dogs out, of all breeds, for a run in the mountains with no leashes or restraints and they will stay together as a pack because HE is the alpha and they are following him, etc. He was very adamant about not being mushy, mushy with them and says that's the problem with American dog owners, that we 'love' our dogs and give them too much affection. Interesting.
     
  17. mizattitude

    mizattitude Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    403
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    yeah..and this is what he thinks of this......


    Still, the perception that dogs look up to the alpha in the pack as some sort of tyrannical dictator and that humans should take on this role has been perpetuated by the authors of many mainstream dog training books and trainers on television. They use this theory to teach you to mandate your authority as the physical-force leader of your dog’s pack—the boss, the head honcho, the big cheese, the numero uno. Woe to him if he doesn’t obey. Unfortunately, this outmoded idea has some trainers perpetuating the myth that humans should use physical displays with the family dog including physically forcing dogs to walk behind them, standing over them, pinning them to the ground, always entering a room first, and so on, supposedly to mimic the behaviors of packs in the wild. Well, none of these things actually exist in the wild except around food or procreation issues.
     
  18. momlaffsalot

    momlaffsalot Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,398
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Location:
    Kansas
    Okay, I was so confused there until I followed that link! We are talking about 2 different people! I am talking about Cesar Milan...he is being touted as the dog whisperer nowadays. Reading your posts about your dog whisperer was like hearing his complete opposite alter ego...Cesar even says to never allow your dog to be the first out the door...shwew, I thought I was nuts...I still might be, but not when it come to this. Mystery solved.
     
  19. momlaffsalot

    momlaffsalot Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,398
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Location:
    Kansas