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Discussion Starter #1
Especially Iraqi soldiers. We've all seen pictures, and in some cases videos of ISIS executing Iraqi soldiers, probably into the thousands now.

What I don't understand is why these guys surrender. They have to know it's certain death, and in many cases a slow, painful death. Why don't they fight to the last bullet, fix bayonets, and charge? If they're going to die anyway, why not die like men?

Is it their religion? Is it their culture? I just don't understand.
 

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Have they been surrendering? Is there recent news of them doing that?

If there are Iraqi soldiers that are surrendering to ISIS I'd conjecture that it has something to do with their Shia religion, due to it being the gentler more "turn the other cheek" type of sect of those two sects.

The Iraqi soldiers are all Shia Muslims, as are the majority of the Muslim population in Iraq, and the Shia are not by nature a violent or hateful sect. The ISIS extremists are all violent Sunni Muslims and the Sunni extremists hate and persecute all Shias. They've tortured and executed thousands upon thousands of Shias.

Or maybe the ISIS Sunnis are using trickery against the Shias, (making promises that give the Shia hope) and then turning on them treacherously. :shrug:

So, that's my conjecture.

Not being facetious here with this next question, just curious to know what are other people's definitions of "manliness" and what people think is the right way to die: what makes a "man" and how should a "man" die?

Will a man not sacrifice himself or knowingly allow himself to become a sacrifice for his higher cause? Haven't there been Gods and Sons of Gods and also Prophets who have sacrificed themselves rather than go down fighting and killing others? Can they be judged as not being manly enough and not doing the manly thing?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Have they been surrendering? Is there recent news of them doing that?

If there are Iraqi soldiers that are surrendering to ISIS I'd conjecture that it has something to do with their Shia religion, due to it being the gentler more "turn the other cheek" type of sect of those two sects.

The Iraqi soldiers are all Shia Muslims, as are the majority of the Muslim population in Iraq, and the Shia are not by nature a violent or hateful sect. The ISIS extremists are all violent Sunni Muslims and the Sunni extremists hate and persecute all Shias. They've tortured and executed thousands upon thousands of Shias.

Or maybe the ISIS Sunnis are using trickery against the Shias, (making promises that give the Shia hope) and then turning on them treacherously. :shrug:

So, that's my conjecture.

Not being facetious here with this next question, just curious to know what are other people's definitions of "manliness" and what people think is the right way to die: what makes a "man" and how should a "man" die?

Will a man not sacrifice himself or knowingly allow himself to become a sacrifice for his higher cause? Haven't there been Gods and Sons of Gods and also Prophets who have sacrificed themselves rather than go down fighting and killing others? Can they be judged as not being manly enough and not doing the manly thing?
You're kidding, right? For the last 9 months Iraqi army units have been surrendering en masse to ISIS forces smaller in size. Then summarily executed. There's a particularly terrible video currently showing an ISIS terrorist with a mid-western American accent, gloating over Iraqi soldiers digging their own mass grave behind him while he boasts of ISIS power, then shooting each one in the head.

Shias are "gentler"? Ask the people in Iran's prisons being tortured and killed for wanting secular government. Yeah, those Ayatollahs have been sponsoring a gentler, kinder kind of terrorism for 35 years now.

Just what "higher cause" do you suppose these abject cowards are furthering by meekly walking to their deaths? Proving Darwinism?

One would think these soldiers, knowing their families and loved ones are next on ISIS list of victims, would fight like devils to the last man rather than surrender, taking as many of those murdering fanatics as possible with them.
 

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I don't understand it either. When you see them sitting or laying down in a ditch, they know they are about to get one in the head. IMO, I don't think I would have made it that far. If I KNOW someone is about to kill me, I do believe with all my heart and soul, that I would not lie still and do as they say.

The same goes for the poor victims that have been beheaded. They are calmly on their knees waiting for the barbaric butcher to cut their heads off. I would think that I would be kicking, biting and screaming all I could to prevent it. Doubt it would do much good though, but I really don't think I would go down without a fight.
 

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How Did You Die?

And though you be done to death, what then?
If you battled the best you could,
If you played your part in the world of men,
Why, the Critic will call it good.
Death come with a crawl, or comes with a pounce,
And whether he's slow or spry,
It isn't the fact that you dead that counts,
But only how did you die?

Edmund Vance Cooke (last stanza)
 

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Do you really think they are allowed to see the same news reports/stories we see?

WWW
 

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Especially Iraqi soldiers. We've all seen pictures, and in some cases videos of ISIS executing Iraqi soldiers, probably into the thousands now.

What I don't understand is why these guys surrender. They have to know it's certain death, and in many cases a slow, painful death. Why don't they fight to the last bullet, fix bayonets, and charge? If they're going to die anyway, why not die like men?

Is it their religion? Is it their culture? I just don't understand.

Take note this is an opinion!

You are associating western attitudes, freedoms, culture to a group of people that have never known freedom.
Yes I know that some will say that they do understand freedom, but I beg to differ. If they speak out against their government, their religion, etc they are killed. In the western world you have the freedom to do the above and more (at least for now, except you can't say anything bad about 0bama or you're called a racist). But Gays can speak out and not have to be worried that the Government is going to have them stoned to death. Rape victims can speak out against their rapist and not have to worry about being stoned to death and the list goes on..

Also as a general rule most of the world's soldiers are taught to die for their Country and American soldiers are taught to assist others dieing for their Country. We are/were taught not to judge the other soldier, but to arrange the meeting between them and their maker..

There is a huge difference in attitudes, Freedoms, culture..
 

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You're kidding, right? For the last 9 months Iraqi army units have been surrendering en masse to ISIS forces smaller in size. Then summarily executed. There's a particularly terrible video currently showing an ISIS terrorist with a mid-western American accent, gloating over Iraqi soldiers digging their own mass grave behind him while he boasts of ISIS power, then shooting each one in the head.

Shias are "gentler"? Ask the people in Iran's prisons being tortured and killed for wanting secular government. Yeah, those Ayatollahs have been sponsoring a gentler, kinder kind of terrorism for 35 years now.

Just what "higher cause" do you suppose these abject cowards are furthering by meekly walking to their deaths? Proving Darwinism?

One would think these soldiers, knowing their families and loved ones are next on ISIS list of victims, would fight like devils to the last man rather than surrender, taking as many of those murdering fanatics as possible with them.
I wasn't kidding. I thought perhaps you were referring to some new occurrence that had just happened yesterday.

Yes, I've seen that video and others, heard and read and watched the news about the mass torturings and killings, the mass graves, the beheadings of the journalists, heard about all the naked women tied to trees, all the children being beheaded, etc., etc. - all of it.

Who in the world who has exposure to internet and media has not heard about all of it now every single day?

You asked if it was their religion or culture that prompts them to surrender. There is not one person on this forum can answer the question you asked. Nobody here is in their position. Nobody here can relate to them or knows what is going on in the minds of those people or why they are doing what they're doing or what they believe constitutes being a man or dying like a man. Nobody here knows what may be considered a higher cause for any of those people or what may be considered a noble self-sacrifice or cowardly giving up in defeat and exhaustion and surrendering.

All anybody here is capable of is conjecture ...... or else smug criticism because of what they think they would do to "man up" if they were in the same position ..... which is just more conjecture because nobody here knows for sure what they would do to "man up".

As I said above, I conjecture that their actions has something to do with the differences in the respective religions of the two sects (Shia and Sunni) rather than their similar cultures. One thing I do know for sure is that I would not want to be in the position that any of those troubled people are in.
 

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I've thought the same thing. Why would someone - hundreds of someones' dig their own graves, lay down in it waiting to be shot?

Could Isis have convincingly lied to these men? Told them they now know where their families live and will save them if they cooperate? Or that this is all for show and they will be set free?

This just isn't easily understood by Americans.
 

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Do you really think they are allowed to see the same news reports/stories we see?

WWW
Those people are seeing a great deal more news reports than us in the western world see and it has nothing to do with what they are allowed. Unlike us they are not only seeing the reports, they are personally living the nightmare. They are the ones who are experiencing it and releasing the reports and videos and photos to the media. Where did you think the stories were coming from?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Take note this is an opinion!

You are associating western attitudes, freedoms, culture to a group of people that have never known freedom.
Yes I know that some will say that they do understand freedom, but I beg to differ. If they speak out against their government, their religion, etc they are killed. In the western world you have the freedom to do the above and more (at least for now, except you can't say anything bad about 0bama or you're called a racist). But Gays can speak out and not have to be worried that the Government is going to have them stoned to death. Rape victims can speak out against their rapist and not have to worry about being stoned to death and the list goes on..

Also as a general rule most of the world's soldiers are taught to die for their Country and American soldiers are taught to assist others dieing for their Country. We are/were taught not to judge the other soldier, but to arrange the meeting between them and their maker..

There is a huge difference in attitudes, Freedoms, culture..
If I understand you correctly then, it's more their culture than anything else. They have a more fatalistic view of their existence, and have less problem just saying "oops, I guess it's my time".

The reason I started this thread was that I have been pondering this question for quite a long time. I just shake my head in wonder at the news of these soldiers surrendering. Like I said, I just can't understand it.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
All anybody here is capable of is conjecture ...... or else smug criticism because of what they think they would do to "man up" if they were in the same position ..... which is just more conjecture because nobody here knows for sure what they would do to "man up".
I would bet several people on this site know.

There have always been surprise cowards in combat, sometimes people you would least expect. But in situations where there are no POWs, and giving up is tantamount to suicide, surrendering is beyond comprehension.

That's why I asked the question in the first place.
 

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I would bet several people on this site know.

There have always been surprise cowards in combat, sometimes people you would least expect. But in situations where there are no POWs, and giving up is tantamount to suicide, surrendering is beyond comprehension.

That's why I asked the question in the first place.


When you know you're beat, surrender is easy. And there is no shame in it. There's a breaking point and once it's crossed, everything is futile. Seth
 

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IMO most of the people of the US are different. The people who settled and

came to this country were the ones who took chances and were adventurous.

They were the brave ones for the most part. They wanted to be self-sufficient
and be free.

We are their prodigy.
 

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If one runs around in the desert heat long enough wearing a rag on you head, your brains kind of get messed up. They really have nothing to fight for ?? If they tried that stuff over here, they would get their backside handed to them in a basket, plus, many of us like BBQ goat! Would be a good place to dump old munitions in that part of the world.
 
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