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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I copied this from the other Health Ins. thread. This was Morningstar's post on that thread. If I'm wrong for doing this I beg forgivness and accept any punishment. The last lines of the post say it all. Why is it we can't do better?


This was a reply about our current health insurance situation.

"I don't think you have a basic understanding about how our system works. I'll give you a few examples. Both are from hard working families (working poor as politicians like to call them). No government hand outs, no food stamps, just hard working families.

First is a friend (a true story that I am sure is repeated to some degree every single day in this country). She had a bad tooth ache. They couldn't afford for her to go to the dentist and she didn't think it was that big of a deal so she kept trying home remedies, until one night when she ended up in ER. The infection had gone to her brain, she needed immediate brain surgery, she had I believe two brain surgeries to relive pressure and a couple of weeks in ICU. This woman couldn't afford a simple dentist visit, who do you think paid that bill? You and I (assuming you have insurance). Now just as simple economics, wouldn't you rather of paid for her to go see a dentist around week one of her tooth ache? You and I are paying either way. You think this doesn't happen every single day?

Next is a woman on the front page of our home newspaper last week. I do not know her but I've been thinking of her and her family every day since. It showed her on the front page with her three young boys, she's 35 years old. She started feeling bad earlier this year but ignored it, she didn't want to burden her family with an extra doctor visit when they needed so many other things. Until she too ended up in ER. She has colon cancer that has now spread to her liver. She is getting care covered now through assistance programs but has a very low chance of living to see her sons grow up. My nephews lost their father last christmas eve, the thought of having those boys and family loose their mother, all because she didn't have the money for a doctor visit to diagnosis her while it was still in stage 1, is just wrong. Wrong.

The stark reality of the death rates from the have's and have not's is appalling in this country. In Canada their is no difference in death rates no matter your income level. This despite the fact that we spend about double as any other industrialized country on health care. Health care is one of the biggest expenses for families in this country, not to mention the leading cause of bankruptcies, the threat of loosing everything in one fail swoop of an illness if very real in this country. Our infant death rates are the second to last worst of the 33 industrialized countries (tied with Hungary, Malta, Poland and Slovakia). We also happen to be at the very bottom of the list for preventable deaths (literally last). It is almost 2009, this isn't the dark ages, we can do better."


What is it about America and Americans that we've allowed ourselves to get so far behind in health Care? We're losing ground as the world progresses. It used to be sold to us that we paid more because of all of the research and development done here. I don't think that's true as most is now being done outside of the US. Why is it we can't seem to accept any system other then paying to the Lord God of insurance? Why is it we have what should be called sick care instead of health care with the health of our country deteriorating?
 

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this makes an excellent point.

we CAN do better. unfortunately, insurance have a huge number or lobbyists to ensure it remains the same.

this is one of the reasons this country is 37th in the world for health care.
 
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What is it about America and Americans that we've allowed ourselves to get so far behind in health Care? We're losing ground as the world progresses. It used to be sold to us that we paid more because of all of the research and development done here. I don't think that's true as most is now being done outside of the US. Why is it we can't seem to accept any system other then paying to the Lord God of insurance? Why is it we have what should be called sick care instead of health care with the health of our country deteriorating?
I think the problem is cost.

100 years ago that woman would have just ddied from that brain infection, and wouldnt have cost anyone anything.

Today many people want to tax everyone to pay for insurance for the uninsured, and lots of people dont want to pay.
 

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I think the problem is cost.

100 years ago that woman would have just ddied from that brain infection, and wouldnt have cost anyone anything.

Today many people want to tax everyone to pay for insurance for the uninsured, and lots of people dont want to pay.
let me say upfront, i have a bone to pick with insurance companies.

in light of that, insurance companies would prefer that someone die, instead of getting care, because it costs a lot less. they are in the business of making money for shareholders, NOT in providing adequate medical care.
 

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The problem, I think, comes from all sides - hospitals charging 15 bucks for a tylenol, insurance companies refusing to insure some folks and charging astronomical premiums for those they do insure. Doctor's offices charging $198 for a 10 minute office visit, etc.

It also comes from our side as well. We know that over processed foods, smoking cigarettes, bad oral hygiene, etc., are going to make you sick, but we do it anyway.

Healthcare reform would have to be a total effort on all sides in order to work.
 

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Health care should not involve more socialism in this country. We could do well to limit the amount a person could receive from a Dr in a law suit.

I don't think all other country's models are good to follow for us. Canada or Europe.
 

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Healthcare reform would have to be a total effort on all sides in order to work.


this is an excellent point.
 

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............Poor mother goes into labor , 4 months early ; BF takes her to ER , she gives birth , hospital keeps 'Jr.' for 6 months until he is ready to go home . Total bill , about two million that could have been used to supply health care too a whole Bunch of Other folks who needed ER care . My solution .......let nature takes it's course and let the baby expire the way it should have . Every so often the major media shows one of these "Gee Whiz" cases where all the latest technology was employed to keep a kid alive when alot of other folks haven't rece'd the care that they should have . This is very wrong headed in my opinion . , fordy
 
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My best friend almost died last summer of uterine cancer. She had insurance and went in. She had to have radical surgery, chemo and radiation. She says that the worst part was the almost daily fight with the insurance company. They thought they got it all, but she has abdominal pain coming back and is fearful.

Health insurance has so many lobbyists that it's not even funny. That money they they charge you and me every month is going to line our Congress' pockets. Meanwhile people are dying because they can't afford to see a doctor.
 
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............Poor mother goes into labor , 4 months early ; BF takes her to ER , she gives birth , hospital keeps 'Jr.' for 6 months until he is ready to go home . Total bill , about two million that could have been used to supply health care too a whole Bunch of Other folks who needed ER care . My solution .......let nature takes it's course and let the baby expire the way it should have . Every so often the major media shows one of these "Gee Whiz" cases where all the latest technology was employed to keep a kid alive when alot of other folks haven't rece'd the care that they should have . This is very wrong headed in my opinion . , fordy
So if someone gets cancer should we also let nature take it's course? What about heart attack vistims? Where do we draw that line?
 

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My sister loved her doctor/pediatrician in Africa. Of course he was the kind of guy used to getting paid in chickens :D, but he spent time with her explaining symptoms she could deal with herself and when to make the trouble to go to the doc(it involved flying). She got a lot of information and "empowerment" to care for her family--and this was stuff involving malaria, dengue fever, parasites. SHe also was very careful to be as healthy as possible(which helped the recovery from stuff). Also there was no prescriptions, everything is over the counter, so with the doctor educating her and taking lots of details over the phone to diagnose, she didn't have to go see him with a lot of stuff to get the rx. SHe said the docs and nurses were much more patient and kind with people, because they know the family will care for the patient(you go into the hospital there you have to have family come care for you too or you are dead meat)--a partnership.
 

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So if someone gets cancer should we also let nature take it's course? What about heart attack vistims? Where do we draw that line?
we may find that line a lot closer than we realize someday
 

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Health care should not involve more socialism in this country. We could do well to limit the amount a person could receive from a Dr in a law suit.

I don't think all other country's models are good to follow for us. Canada or Europe.
So what do you propose? Let people die? Let them be sick and have miserable, short lives? Go to the hospital and lose their home and all they have worked for? For all the BS, liability insurance is a small problem. The big problem is MILLIONS of American Citizens without any insurance. No civilized country other than this one allows that. And our problem is people who worry about government when their neighbors are sick and dying. I know a lot of Canadians, and a few from europe. None want our system. I haven't personally talked to any Canadian who didn't think their system wasn't better, far better.
 

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I agree...why can't we do better?

This past spring, the lobby guy at McDonald's was having stomach problems. I know him because I meet a friend there for lunch 2x a week. Johnny was 55 and a veteran, and worked construction for years, until a stroke blinded him in one eye. He and his wife both worked 50 hour weeks, yet made too much money for medicaid. His local doctor wanted an ultrasound test, but he did not have the money. He later died in the hospital, after discovering liver cancer.

We have to do something in this country to change the health care is handled.

Look at Canada. Not a perfect system, but I have yet to meet a Canadian that hates their system.

But if we continue to listen to the HC lobbyists, and the special interest groups that run fear based commercials against a national health care system, we will continue to see the massive problems we have today. Those problems are getting worse by the year.

The hospitals love to say "We aren't making any money!!!!" When was the last time you saw anyone from hospital management that was poor????

It sickens me to know that life times of hard work and savings can be eaten away in weeks in a hospital stay.

Wanna talk about redistribution of wealth? Look at the HC industry. They have been sucking us dry for years and years, and the redistribution of wealth has all the money going to the health care industry.

For instance, my grandfather worked all of his life and raised 10 kids to be successful. When he died, the estate was worth about $100,000, which was just enough to cover his last 2 months in the hospital.

A guy in our town had a wife that needed a heart transplant. That guy worked 50 hours a week at a factory, and took another 40 hour job at Walmart. Yet, no matter how hard he worked, he is destined to be poor forever and ever because of the HC bills he faced. This is a consumer that will probably never buy a house, a new car, have a credit card, just because the HC industry broke him, and his credit is ruined. What did we gain there?

In fact, getting a major illness in this nation usually means poverty for that individual, unless they have great insurance.

The HC industry, as great as it has become, is taking this nation for a ride.

The HC industry will charges absolutely as much as they can and have learned that they can get rich by soaking the wealth out of those of us in need.

It is time to get this nation back on track, and we should start with the health care industry.

I am sure I will get my head bashed in for posting this opinion.

Clove
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
So do we not do better because there isn't as much profit in doing things better? Has this become the American way? It seems this way with most everything we do any more. Whether it's our food, our labor or the products we make. Basically is this the result of attempting to be purely capitalistic?
 

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There are two main problems which are driving cost up in the health care industry (and yes its an industry).

1) The US legal system. We are paying huge cost to cover stupid law suits. Not only in direct cost to pay off multi-million dollar lawsuits but in the cost of doctors ordering every test possible to cover their butts when (not if) someone sues them.

2) The US government. Once the government started paying for medical care the cost started going up and up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
There are two main problems which are driving cost up in the health care industry (and yes its an industry).

1) The US legal system. We are paying huge cost to cover stupid law suits. Not only in direct cost to pay off multi-million dollar lawsuits but in the cost of doctors ordering every test possible to cover their butts when (not if) someone sues them.

2) The US government. Once the government started paying for medical care the cost started going up and up.
I think there's a lot more. The whole concept of insurance is a major part, then tying insurance to a job really puts the screws to the American worker. Then you have the lobbyists or the best gov't money can buy. Our leaders are getting big bucks from the people making the big money to keep this terrible system we have now and doing all they can to prevent any change.

Now follow the media and of course it's all about lawsuits, welfare , medicare fraud and prolonging life.
 
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let me say upfront, i have a bone to pick with insurance companies.

in light of that, insurance companies would prefer that someone die, instead of getting care, because it costs a lot less. they are in the business of making money for shareholders, NOT in providing adequate medical care.
I wont dissagree with that
 

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One thing I forgot to mention:

If we Americans could buy affordable health insurance, we would see a boom in the economy.

I own a small business, and a few years ago, I wanted my wife to quit her job and come to work with me, and try to grow the business into a much larger concern.

Our #1 holdback? Insurance. It is simply cost prohibitive to buy HI for the two of us.

Just think of the investment in new equipment that we would have made, the services that we would have bought like cell phones and broadband internet, while at the same time opened up a new job for someone else at the employer that she left.

I was prepared at that time to buy a new $9,000 press, another $6,000 on other equipment, 2 new computers. I was also looking to hire a pressman and a secretary within 6 months, not to mention 2 salesmen if things got going really well.

Other plans would have allowed us to venture into at least 2 new businesses that would have operated in conjunction with what we were currently doing.

How much more would we have spurred in the economy if we had succeeded? How much wealth could have been created in the economy because of what we had sold? (Not to be confused with our income, but the economy at-large.)

We will never know.

But I do know one thing for sure: It was the price of health insurance that killed the entire plan.

Make good, affordable HI available with no pre-existing conditions, and you will see thousands and thousands, if not millions, race to quit their jobs and set up new businesses.

Clove
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
One thing I forgot to mention:

If we Americans could buy affordable health insurance, we would see a boom in the economy.

I own a small business, and a few years ago, I wanted my wife to quit her job and come to work with me, and try to grow the business into a much larger concern.

Our #1 holdback? Insurance. It is simply cost prohibitive to buy HI for the two of us.

Just think of the investment in new equipment that we would have made, the services that we would have bought like cell phones and broadband internet, while at the same time opened up a new job for someone else at the employer that she left.

I was prepared at that time to buy a new $9,000 press, another $6,000 on other equipment, 2 new computers. I was also looking to hire a pressman and a secretary within 6 months, not to mention 2 salesmen if things got going really well.

Other plans would have allowed us to venture into at least 2 new businesses that would have operated in conjunction with what we were currently doing.

How much more would we have spurred in the economy if we had succeeded? How much wealth could have been created in the economy because of what we had sold? (Not to be confused with our income, but the economy at-large.)

We will never know.

But I do know one thing for sure: It was the price of health insurance that killed the entire plan.

Make good, affordable HI available with no pre-existing conditions, and you will see thousands and thousands, if not millions, race to quit their jobs and set up new businesses.

Clove
Excellent post!!

How much creativity has been stifled in this country because of health insurance?
 
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