What would you do?

Discussion in 'Goats' started by KayJay, Jan 19, 2007.

  1. KayJay

    KayJay Well-Known Member

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    Ok, the facts:

    *Preg Togg doe

    *unkown age but has kidded before

    *unplanned pregnancy/no due date (was "running with that guy there" (Saanen buck) before I got her)

    *was losing ligaments and "regaining" them about every other day starting 3 weeks ago, now loses them each night and they are back each day (yes I'm sure ;) )

    *big "glob" of discharge 9 days ago and small amounts of stringy goo each day since

    *this morning had some yellowish discharge stuck underneath tail and on tip of vulva

    *Wednesday got back 2nd positive CL test (yes she is and has been quarantined and everyone else was neg both times)

    *I can feel strong kid movement (I check at least 4-5 times a day)

    *Temp 102.6

    *I'm going to be out of state from Monday to Saturday (house hunting and cannot be postponed)

    When I got back the 2nd positive CL test yesterday I decided that I'll have to put her down once she kids (even if I wanted to deal with permanent quarantine I can't get a health certificate for her now). I'm concerned that she's going to kid while I'm gone and I won't be there to snatch the kids away. I don't have anyone who can watch her that intently for me or feed the kids if she had them. It just seems like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place with this doe, I don't want to lose the kids and have this be a total loss. I've even thought of trying to induce her but then worry about the kids being born too early and having no chance. I've also thought that if she kids while I'm gone I could just take the kids and quarantine them once I get back, then commence with testing at regular intervals till I'm satisfied they're not infected, but not sure how feasible that is. Any ideas? I'm at a loss. :help:
    Edited to add: The yellowish discharge has me a bit conerned too, not sure if I should start her on antibiotics or not.
     
  2. chma4

    chma4 Wolverton Family Farm Supporter

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    If it were me, I would induce at the very last moment. Right before you leave to give them as much a shot as I could. Or possibly hire someone to take her in and keep watch that knows goats. i would not chance exposing the kids. That is just doubling your investment for a total possible loss. But then again, I dont have CL in my herd, so maybe someone with more experience knows what the risks are a little better
     

  3. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    i have to dissagree on the inducing. there is no due date and if the doe is induced you take the risk of dead kids. this is not worth it at all. before that i would put her down.
    who wants to take a cl positive doe in? that could be a hard thing.
    do you have family that can move in when you are gone? what about the previous owner?
    where have you had her tested and is it a truly positive because she has had an absess or did she test positive because of vaccination?
     
  4. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    YOu can't induce a doe with no duedate, period. Super glue her teat orifices closed, make sure some gets inside the teat canal, and then squeeze it shut, than teat tape her. If she or the kids get the teat tape off they can not get the superglue out of the teat canal. So even if you do end up with licked off kids they will not have nursed. Ligiments and discharge man you are near the end, a tail the flops over the back and a tight udder with little give and that you can milk colostrum out of means 36 hours....I would being giving her a pelvic, if you can get into the cervic even with just a finger you need to stay home. Even a week early and you will have kids that unless you can tube and have excellent nursing abilities you may not be able to save.

    CAE is not going to be passed to the kids unless she nurses them. CL isn't going to be passed period unless she has an active abscess that has burst into the pen. I would not leave her alone more than about 6 hours in any stretch, so the kids will not fail in the cold. Anyway you can hire someone to at least baby sit her to get you on your cell phone if you have to be away?

    If you are going to put her down don't start her on anything. And a uterine infection discharge would be stinking up your whole barn. Some does discharge a great deal before they kid, others do not. I also would put her down after she kids. Vicki
     
  5. KayJay

    KayJay Well-Known Member

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    I'm not questioning what I should do with the doe, she has to be put down, period, I cannot take her with me when I move even if I wanted to, and I wouldn't put anyone else in the position to have to deal with the CL (if this is what you are referring to). I had my vet send in tests, she's never been vacc'd for CL, and she cropped up a couple abscesses, that's why I had her and everyone tested when I did, though none of them have burst yet.
    As far as not inducing her cause it could mean dead kids and just putting her down instead, well, that would definately result in dead kids, so I figure if I was just going to put her down now I'd rather induce and give the kids a chance at least.
     
  6. KayJay

    KayJay Well-Known Member

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    Vicki, she's been milking colostrum for 3 weeks and her udder has been relatively tight that whole time, but has tightened up a whole lot since she started with the increased discharge 9 days ago.
    There is no way I can stay home, I have to find a house before my time here runs out. I ran out and did a pelvic on her and I can get a finger tip in the cervix.
    I've been looking to see if there is anyone around that can babysit while I'm gone but haven't found anyone (my mom is going to be feeding but has to work too), the only people I've found with any goat experience at all are either working too much or are opposed to being in contact with a goat with CL (can't blame them one bit, I sure wouldn't do it). I'm going to be a 14 hour drive away, so I wouldn't be able to rush home if anything happened anyway.
    She does have two abscesses but they haven't yet burst, though I'm sure they could at any point. :shrug:

    Thank you all for the replies, I'll let ya know what happens....
     
  7. KayJay

    KayJay Well-Known Member

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    Just wanted to add that if any of my posts sound snotty they are not intended to, I'm just stressing over this and trying to decide what the heck to do. Thank you all for your answers.
     
  8. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    sorry for missunderstanding. i didn't want to implay that you want to give her away. i thought you are coming back to your place and only needed her to be placed for kidding.
    what ever your decission will be it will be not easy.
     
  9. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    you could try and take the absesses out as a whole. or go to a vet and have them surgically removed. this will lower the risk of bursting if you are not home.
     
  10. Jcran

    Jcran Well-Known Member

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    Vicki, are you saying that IF she was CL positive twice AND she nursed the kids, there would still be a LOW chance of them getting CL? I thought that kids from CL positive moms should be taken away before nursing could happen? Just curious!!
     
  11. chma4

    chma4 Wolverton Family Farm Supporter

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    Well, I get you Kay Jay. Try to hire someone, If not, GOOD LUCK!
     
  12. chicamarun

    chicamarun Well-Known Member

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    I don't know anything about goats (don't have any yet) but this topic made me do a little research

    OFFSPRING
    1) progeny of infected animals should be removed at birth, BEFORE any nursing and raised on pasteurized colostrum and milk - this has the added benefit of also breaking the infection chain for Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis (CAE) Virus, Mycoplasma, Johne's Disease, and Q Fever. If one of these kids does nurse its dam, make a note in the records and observe the animal carefully. Probably a good idea to draw a blood sample just before vaccinating and test for CLA - if not vaccinating, then blood test as a yearling.

    2) progeny of clean animals can be raised by their clean dams (although you lose the benefits of cutting off the transmission of the diseases mentioned above).

    3) As mentioned above, vaccinate the clean does before kidding and then start vaccinating the kids at 10 weeks, giving the booster 4 weeks after that, followed by annual boosters.

    http://www.goatworld.com/articles/cl/cl2.shtml

    Don't know if it helps - but it does state about removing the kids
     
  13. CritterLover

    CritterLover Critterlover

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    I don't get the impression from your post that you are going to be gone an extended period- could you have a vet keep her at their facility? I know its costly, but it sounds like the kids are important to you and maybe worth it to you?
     
  14. KayJay

    KayJay Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Susanne I think we both misunderstood eachother, I am only leaving for a short time, this time, but will be moving out of state soon and I thought you were making a suggestion for a permanent solution. I am paranoid about the idea of removing the abscesses myself, and they're pretty well on there, they're close to her body and spread out pretty far, one is about 4-5 inches in diameter and about 2 inches high and the other is about 3 inches in diameter and about an inch and a half high, they're pretty good sized.

    CritterLover, I wish I could afford to have a vet board her for me, but with such a big move coming up I really have to save my pennies. :(

    Thanks again guys.
     
  15. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    There would have to be a burst abscess in the udder for a kid to catch CL via milk or colostrum. Colostrum and milk do pass on CAE, mycoplsma and staph Mastitis, Johnnes, Q fever etc.

    If she has not tested positive for CAE, and you are in this pickle, than go, let her nurse the kids...but if the abscess bursts I would put the whole group down when you get home. Tragic, but no way with a burst abscess and her licking the kids and herself and the exude would you not end up with anything but positive kids. CL abcess is only passed via the exude in the abscess, or from milk if there is an abscess in the udder (and it's really not the milk but the pus in the milk (blech), or an abscess in the bladder and she pees this all over your property.

    The problem with induction is simple, a doe can have all these signs for weeks before she kids, you will be guessing that when you give the 2cc of lutelyse that in 36 hours the kids lungs are mature. And she could kid tonight without induction. Does she have actual colostrum in her udder, thick and yellow? That to me means you could induce, we routinely milked does out prekidding when we daired so we didn't have congested udders (back when we fed sweet feed) and the does only had colostrum about a week before they kidded before then it was thin watery milk or non exsistant. Vicki
     
  16. Idahoe

    Idahoe Menagerie More~on

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    You are in such a pickle that whatever you decide to do, you'll have done it with much thought of the risk and made the best choice you could.