"Welcome to The Patriot Act"

Discussion in 'Homesteading Questions' started by chickflick, Aug 19, 2004.

  1. chickflick

    chickflick Well-Known Member

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    This is a nice website that explains (w/links to the actual document) how our 4th Amendment rights are being exterminated.

    http://www.welcometothepatriotact.com/means.html

    Oops! I was about to cut and paste this to put here from General.. but you guys need to see this too. (I was not in general.. oops!)

    Come on over.. we're doing a LOT of talking about what's happening to our country. If you care... check it out. Thank you.
     
  2. So you in the Taliban or what. I don't have anything to hide, so i don't care. We are living in a diffewrent world now and we have to accept that. AMERICA, love it or leave it.
    Mike
     

  3. Westwood

    Westwood Well-Known Member

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    If you don't have anything to hide, why don't you register?
     
  4. Haggis

    Haggis MacCurmudgeon

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    Fighting for freedoms IS what America is about. It would seem that those who take the loss of their freedoms laying down are unAmerican, not those who protest the loss of freedoms. Saying "I have nothing to hide" is like saying "I'll give up all of my freedoms." Our freedoms are/were protected by the Bill of Rights for a reason; the government, any govenment, can never be completely trusted. Our Founding Fathers knew this and that is why they included a Bill of Rights to the Constitution.

    Did anybody notice how quickly the Patriot Act got passed? It takes months or even years to write even a small bill, then it has to go through a variety of committees, and finally go before Congress to become a law. This Patriot Act is thousands of pages and was apparently written prior to 9/11 and passed by all members of Congress so quickly that they couldn't have had time to even read it.
     
  5. Why are there things in the Patriot Act that have nothing to do with terrorism?
     
  6. Qvrfullmidwife

    Qvrfullmidwife Well-Known Member

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    Having grown up overseas in areas rife for coups and violent protests and terrorism, I think that Americans are spoiled. Yes, there may be excesses in the PA. Yes, theoretically, these may, seen in a certain light seem to infringe upon individual's civil rights. But...seems to me the first right mentioned in the Declaration of Independence is the right of "life". This is the right right worth protecting at all costs and for a time it may well be that the PA is a cost to be shouldered. I never balked as a child when I was patted down and my personal effects strewn from one end of a Third World nation to the other by overly enthusiastic security personel. I understood that as an American, I (and my belongings) was going to come under more scrutiny at times (including random drug screens) due to other American's drug trafficing. (mercy me! Is that profiling? Guilt by association? Maybe...it is also just the way that it was and as someone who would never be found to be involved, it didn't phase me. Maybe my perspective is a wee bit flawed, having seen riots accompany elections and not being allowed to go camping as a girlscout due to guerilla warfare in the countryside of the country that I was living in. I prefer to think that I am a bit more informed as to what the rest of the world lives like. Funny thing, though, I would think that the rest of America would be as well, having seen 9/11. :confused:

    BTW...many protest mightily about the excesses and dangers of teh PA. As something so heinous and overly used to great detriment, I would think that there would be many people who have first hand accounts (or even second hand accounts) of these infringements. Instead we hear of coulds and shoulds and any actual accounts seem to be related to anecdote or the exception to the rule whereby someone who has, by questionable or illegal behavior, drawn attention to themselves.
     
  7. Old Jack

    Old Jack Truth Seeker

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    Some quotes on the subject:


    "Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of
    the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are
    being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
    exposing the country to danger." -- Hermann Göring


    They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security
    ----Benjamin Franklin

    "A patriot is a person willing to defend his country and citizens from
    its government." -- Thomas Jefferson


    "Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand
    by the president or any other public official, save exactly to the
    degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to
    support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is
    unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency
    or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country. In either
    event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth, whether about the
    president or anyone else."
    ~ Theodore Roosevelt
     
  8. Qvrfullmidwife

    Qvrfullmidwife Well-Known Member

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    "Patriotism means to stand by the country"

    Guess protecting the country doesnt count...
     
  9. Old Jack

    Old Jack Truth Seeker

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    Try reading the rest of the qoute or have someone read it to you.
     
  10. This isn't a question of if the country should be protected, this is a question of if it is necessary to forfeit our constitutional rights in order to protect ourselves.

    We have to decide where to draw the line. If we allow too many rights to be forfeited then we will have tyranny, and I don't thing anyone here is suggesting that would be a good thing. So where do we draw the line?

    The way the PA was first presented (sold to us), it was intended to be aimed at foreign national who were thought to pose a security risk. After all, they weren't US citizens anyway so curbing their constitutional rights didn't seem to matter much. However, in the final draft many provisions were aimed directly at US citizens who clearly posed no threat.

    Many of us feel betrayed by the PA. Why shouldn't we feel betrayed? We were sold a bill of goods by our own elected officials!
     
  11. I think most of you are misinterpreting the Patriot Act as some sort of major change in our rights status. But if you take out the current political spin you will see that it's just a continuation of the loss of rights that has been surging forward for decades. There is no sea change loss of rights here.

    Raised under the welfare state, most people under 40 don't even have a sense of personal rights. A right for them is the right to demand some "service", some privelage from the Federal government - a preferential division of the tax and law spoils that favors them.

    Even among those who bemoan the loss of consitutional rights they do so on an item by item basis, not comprehending or embracing the principles of rights. Try it. Test people. Find out if they support a right by asking them about a particular circumstance they would likely despise.

    Who was it that said you become like your enemy? We are closer now to the former Soviet Union, where, under communism with complete diktat of the state, 80% of the people were happy as long as they had basic clothing, shelter, and food. We are much fatter and happier than they were and we will remain so for awhile.
     
  12. Qvrfullmidwife

    Qvrfullmidwife Well-Known Member

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    "Try reading the rest of the qoute or have someone read it to you."

    Excuse me, I did.

    Ad hominum argument...attacking those who disagree doesnt change the basis of their stance. :no:
     
  13. Pardon me for not comprehending, but what is patriotic about allowing our elected officials strip us of our constitutional rights?
     
  14. A lot of blood will be spilled tomorrow, due to the contentment and laziness of American citizens today. Over the last century each generation has allowed our freedom to further slip away. While each instance has not changed our situation too extremely at the time, the shift over the long run has changed our world. Those who live today do not understand the freedoms endowed to us by our founding fathers. With each generation we proceed down the path to dictatorship. Only once our freedoms become so meager and our people become so oppressed will we rise up against a government intent on removing all of our freedoms. While we today should stand up to what some see as minor changes that “will not affect me because I have nothing to hide”, we will stand by and let our government further dictate what freedoms we need until we no longer have freedom. Due to attitudes like these, our fathers, brothers, and sons will bleed on a home battlefield; for attitudes like these can only lead to revolution and when we reach this point we will all bleed. If only you would stand up for your freedoms today, you could battle with word not bullets. Our founding fathers were skeptical of our ability to keep our democracy. When asked do we have a monarchy or a republic, a founding father said a republic if you can keep it. Sadly it seems you do not wish to keep it, as many of our founding fathers feared.
     
  15. OD

    OD Well-Known Member

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    I've been intending to post this & now seems like a good time.
    ________________________________________________________________
    A Visitor From the Past
    Thelan Paulk

    I had a dream the other night I didn’t understand.
    A figure walking through the mist, with flintlock in his hand.
    His clothes were torn and dirty, as he stood there by the bed,
    He took off his three cornered hat, and speaking low, he said:

    “ We fought a revolution, to secure our liberty,
    We wrote the Constitution as a shield from tyranny.
    For future generations, this legacy we gave,
    In this, the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.”

    “The freedom we secured for you, we hoped you’d always keep,
    But tyrants labored endlessly, while your parents were asleep.
    Your freedom gone, your courage lost, you’re no more than a slave,
    In this, the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.”

    “You buy permits to travel, and permits to own a gun,
    Permits to start a business, or to build a place for one.
    On land that you believe you own, you pay a yearly rent,
    Although you have no voice in choosing how the money’s spent.”

    “Your children must attend a school that doesn’t educate.
    Your Christian values can’t be taught, according to the state.
    You read about the current news, in a regulated press.
    You pay a tax you do not owe to please the IRS.”

    “Your money is no longer made of silver or of gold.
    You trade your wealth for paper, so your life can be controlled.
    You pay for crimes that make our nation turn from God in shame.
    You’ve taken Satan’s number as you’ve traded in your name.”

    “You’ve given government control to those who do you harm,
    So they can padlock churches and steal the family farm.
    And keep our country deep in debt, put men of God in jail,
    Harass your fellow countrymen, while corrupted courts prevail.”

    “Your public servants don’t uphold the solemn oath they’ve sworn.
    Your daughters visit doctors so their children won’t be born.
    Your leaders ship artillery and guns to foreign shores,
    And send your sons to slaughter, fighting other peoples’ wars.”

    “Can you regain the freedom for which we fought and died?
    Or don’t you have the courage or the faith to stand with pride?
    Are there no more values for which you’ll fight to save?
    Or do you wish your children to live in fear and be a slave?”

    “Sons of the Republic, arise and take a stand!
    Defend the Constitution, the supreme law of the land!
    Preserve our great Republic And each God given right,
    And pray to God to keep the torch of freedom burning bright.”


    As I awoke, he vanished from the mist from which he came.
    His words were true, we are not free. We have ourselves to blame.
    For even now as tyrants trample each God-given right,
    We only watch and tremble, too afraid to stand and fight.

    If he stood by your bedside, in a dream while you’re asleep,
    And wondered what remains of our rights he fought to keep.
    What would be your answer if he called out from the grave?
    “Is this still the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave?”
     
  16. chickflick

    chickflick Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect, Qvrfull..... If you're not Seeing "accounts".... you should try reading in some other places! OR, perhaps, you might learn to 'read between the lines". There is no shortage of "accounts" IF you look in the right places, my dear. (And before I get one of those 'prove it' statements.. just go to my profile, click all post by this user, and start browsing. In the last two weeks, I have put in PLENTY of places to see the 'accounts' you have ask about.)
     
  17. debitaber

    debitaber Well-Known Member

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    I have nothing to hide, so let them check. IF just one check can stop another 911 from happening, so be it.
    I think the only people that are up set by this, would be the one with something to hide. I understand that we are giving up some rights, but we did that long before 911. and where in the bill of rights or the constution does it say we shall be taxed, or that your insurance on your home, or truck, will go by yor cridet rating? see you lost rights a long time ago, and I didn't hear people yelling then.
     
  18. It sounds to me as if you feel our rights are so battered that they aren't worth protecting any longer, and you are ready to trade your constitutional rights for security. Let's recall a quote in a previous post:

    They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security
    ----Benjamin Franklin

    I'm certainly not the judge of what you deserve, but I do question the effectiveness of taking rights of US citizens away in the name of security. I simply don't see how spying on our own people will improve the current security situation.

    It is true that you may not have anything to hide, but there are those who will use any and all information they can get their hands on to your detriment, and those you care about also. Many good people have been ruined by such no-good-doers.

    I'm sorry you don't think there are enough fundamental rights left to be worth protecting and longer. I disagree, but I do respect your opinion. I, for one, am not ready to turn my back on the constitution.
     
  19. debitaber

    debitaber Well-Known Member

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    I am not ready to give up anything, it is just that our rights, or most of them have been gone a long time.
    I hate going to cities, where they have camera's up all over the place, to catch the bad guys. everywhere one goes these days, you are watched. I hate that. I don't like the fact, that they can bust your door down and come in your home, jerk you out of bed, on the fact that they think you might be guilty of something.
    no , I don't like big brother in on everything, but this country, has been under a sort of a marshall law, for a very long time. and it isn't right. But I really don't know what we can do. I have signed many things to protest, sent out emails, to senators and to congressmen, and still, more and more rights are taken. Unless the American people as a whole unit, protest this, it is going to keep happening. OUr voices are no longer heard. It is the rich, and very super rich that are ruling this country. When was the last time , a farmer, of a small 50 acre farm, or a homesteader, was elected? not going to happen. The big business', and the super rich, buy whom ever they want to be in the white house. We get to choose, which one of the two, we want. the super rich guy, or the rich guy. they all promise about the same, but they really don't deliver much at all if any to the common working family. and NO breaks at all, for the homesteader, or small family farm. the breaks just aren't there. They make deals with third world country's to import their fruit, hogs, cattle, and chickens, and leave the average farmer, out to dry, no place to sell his goods.
    NO our rights have been gone in this country a very long time. People just need to wake up and see what is really happening.
     
  20. southerngurl

    southerngurl le person Supporter

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    Yup