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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Had to have the vet come out, the buckling and my oldest wether had slight fevers, cough and nose goo. One of the doelings had a slight fever as well. He gave everyone a round of LA and pronounced them healthy, happy goaties. Said he wasn't overly concerned about the nose goop and coughs, he feels they might have a cold, but said as long as they are bouncy and eating they should be fine. In another day or two (once they have stopped the nose goo) I will be giving them their second rounds of CD/T. I gave ****** a dose of Ivomec the other day and thought he was going to die...he is such a drama king. He cried, fell over, hobbled...but managed to drag himself to his food bowl and somehow managed to eat, I don't know how he managed to find the strength (lol). I guess that stuff really does sting; no one was real keen on the LA shots, either. After reading the other post about the Ivomec causing dramatic reactions, I feel pretty bad for them, but have to do what is needed.

Vet wanted to give babies a shot of Ivermectin, but said to hold off until whatever nasties they have are gone. I balked (armed with knowledge from here) and questioned giving them the shot? I think I'll play it safe and dose them with something oral.

So all told, everyone is happy, bouncy, and cute as ever.

Just wanted to update, you were all there for me during the tragedy and I will keep you posted with GOOD news. Gosh knows I have had enough farm animal tragedy to last a while.
 

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Good to hear you have some vet help and that they goats are so far so good.

How did you dose them with "Ivomec" and with what chemical of this brand name? I am asking because you later talk about not giving ivermectin shots and when a lot of people talk about Ivomec, they mean ivermectin manufactured by Ivomec (Ivomec makes many different types of de-wormers). It confused me to read that you gave them Ivomec (but didn't say how except it sounded like you gave an injection because of the reactions from the goat(s)) but then you said you didn't want to give them a shot of ivermectin. ???

LA200 - I have been told many times not to give this to young kids due to malformations in bone growth. Is this no longer the current information? Has there been a new publication talking about this?
 

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Injectable Ivomec had been given orally in goats rather than by injection. Similarily, Cydectin (cattle pour-on) is what my vet has me give orally.
 

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ivomec works better if given orally to goats, horses too.
 

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LA 200 should not be given to young goats! It can cause any number of issues, ie. interferes with bone & teeth formation, both in utero and while kids are growing. Cna also cause abortions in pregnant does.
Cattle farmers and cattle vets rely heavily on it but not good for young or pregnant does.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I popped up and read the bottle for exactly what it says, and it's Ivomec Injectible ivermectin. I had it on a vet's orders for poor Sandy. I gave the oldest wether ****** (he's a year and some change) the shot, but withheld it for the 3 babies. How do you dose the injectible orally, and is this wormer ok for the babes if given orally?

*sigh. It is terrible when the only people you can rely on (my old farm vet) aren't as knowledgeable as you think. No more LA, is Tylan acceptable or should I stick with good old Penn? I think he went for the LA because it is long lasting.

I still have so much to learn...I hope not at the expense of the babies.

They are still bouncing around happy as can be, but somebody (I'm not the only one in and out of that barn) left some alfalfa cubes on the ground, presumably for ******. I was wrestling the babies over them because I'm afraid the cubes will be too big for them and they will choke.

And so this journey continues...I'll try to get some updated pics so you can see how big they are getting.

Thanks again for your help and advice, I'd probably have 4 dead goats if I left it up to my vet. The best I can do is read read read for myself.
 

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Hey, no one is perfect. You are doing the best you can and if you get a consensus of opinions and the majority are for one type of med/wormer etc, then do what you think is best and put it in Gods hands. Sounds like they are doing well and I am sure you will do everything you can to ensure their health and well being.
 

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Well not all vets are good with goats and everyone does something different, even on here. I personally use horse wormer the white paste at two times the dose if it is 1.87% Ivermectin. I was using three times the dose and thanks to people on here I found out that was too much.
I also do not worm unless needed. I take in their poop and get is tested for worms and eggs and if it comes back negative I do not worm. I do not want to over use it and have them build a resistance. I am also not in a wormy area which is a nice plus.
I do not like LA 200 as it burns. Some antibiotics are from a vet only. So if I need Nuflor I have to go there and get it. Thankfully they draw me up a few shots and do not make me buy a $97 bottle.
Runny noses can be from the cold, dust and etc. If it is just clear mucus and it does not stop after a day or two I give them some children's mucus relief, grape flavor which they love. If that stops it then they are good and I do not use antibiotics. If it is green or yellow then I would want to give them something more. I worry about over using antibiotics too and making them resistant.
See we all worry, so you are not alone :)
 

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Nuflor is excellent. My parents had a doe with a closed pyrometra. She was down and I thought she would die. I gave her Nuflor and she came back. It took 3-4 days before I was able to get her up, but was able to get her eating and was able to pull her up. It is difficult to find a vet that is really knowledgeable about goats. The only one I have found is over an hour away from me.
 

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Is *standard* LA200 really long acting, or are you talking about a specific long-acting version of a similar chemical? I know there is a difference between two commonly used antibiotics this way but I am not familiar enough with them to remember which ones...
 

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Tylan burns worse than Ivomec! And unless you have epinephrine on hand, be careful with Pen! Seeing a goat fall off the needle dead is no fun.

I'd go with NuFluor since it is a single or two dose shot- one and then another in 48 hours. Draxxin is good too, it lasts 7 days, but it is expensive.

Tetracyclines (LA200, BioMycin200, Aureomycin, etc.) are frequently used for young stock. Lamb grower feeds usually have a tetracycline in them, so do some calf feeds. We keep a bag of Aureomycin crumbles on hand here to feed through during cold season in the spring when pneumonias can kill kids in a heartbeat.

Personally, I do not worry about using tetracyclines on my youngstock- never had a single problem with growth, teeth or bones. In fact, they grow out better for me. I plan on a feed plan with a lamb grower and a bovatec (Lasalocid) feed high in copper for spring kids.
 

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I'ts internet fodder about tetracycline causing bone and teeth problems in goats.

There is no Long Acting anything in goats, its for cattle. The blood level would be zero if you gave shots to goats of any antibiotic every 36 to 48 hours like they have for cattle. Goats have way to fast of metabolisims.

Any 200 mg tetracycline is better to use than LA200 because of it's sting carrier. It is made to necrose the area to give better saturation in the muscle of the cow. Something you can't do to goats, in fact other than a loading does IM, because IM goes faster into the bloodstream than subq, in a goat, you want to give OTC antbiotics to goats subq, so using a sting carrier like this for 3 to 5 days isn't smart. But most vets only carry brand names so it's up to us to keep 200mg biomycin etc around for our stock.

Goats don't get rhinovirus/colds. So runny noses are usually something irritating to them....straw, hayracks up high or dirt/dust, or the pasteurella that is found normally in all goats all the time, is being stressed due to humidity, cold, worms, a move. The does immunity to pasturella isn't complete unless her dam had it and recovered and passed immunity to her kids via colostrum or you vaccinate. So as the does immune system goes to fight this, you see weepy eyes and runny noses...if her immune system fails to fight it you have illness and death.

Giving antibiotics helps keep the offending numbers down long enough so the does immune system can take over and cure her, there is no antibiotic that will cure pnemonia, only help it along. If you add banamine to your course of treatment, this stops the inflammation that keeps lung scarring and congestion down (works like us getting a steroid shot when we have congestion).

I also wouldn't choose tetracycline to treat this with such excellent vet scripts, I prefer naxcel. But then I don't treat runny noses unless they have fever, I prefer to vaccinate for pasturella so we don't see many of this type of thing. Even in kids I have sold who go on in their new homes to go to shows with real illness coming home from the show in their new herdmates, rarely have to go on antibiotics for treatment, even with one loss of a herd mate from pasturella brought home at a show.....because of vaccination of dams. vicki
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
After the reaction to the LA, I agree I don't want to do that to them again!! It was horrible! They do seem better, though, maybe their immune systems are catching up. I like Naxcel from all I have been reading, but isn't the shelf-life (fridge life) 7 days, or is that 7 days after mixing it? I just got a nice new bottle of banamine from the vet, but I think at this point I'll "wait and see."

I feel like I am beating my head against a wall...from the one vet that mis-diagnosed Sandy as having tetanus (and in my opinion, contributed to a lack of definitive treatment that *might* have saved her in a timely fashion), to this one who has been an old farm vet for 50+ years (really, 50 years and then some!)...I try to do the right thing, spare no expense for the sake of my animals, yet still end up as confused as ever!! I swear I thought goats "ate tin cans" and stood out in the field, no muss, no fuss, until I started down this road. If it wasn't for you guys, I can't imagine how many I would have lost through trial and error, with the vets as clueless as I am!!!

Thank God, I got my pretty new book Goat Medicine, 2007 edition, today. I asked DH where he got the updated version, he said Amazon, and that's why the wait was so long, it hadn't even been published yet. I am off to read up on pasturella now, lol. I'll do what I did with the horses, and that's read the "owner's manual" cover to cover.
 

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Becky, it sounds like things are on an upswing for you guys now. Your right about getting alot of good info here. Alot of knowledgable goat people that probly know more about goats than most of our vets do. I have vet we really like, he see's lots of cows, horses, dogs & cats but I don't always call him for my goats! Thank goodness my goats have always been healthy for the most part.
I think it's always better for goats to do the Ivermectin orally.
I'm so glad your little goats are all starting to feel better. It will get easier for you I'm sure.
 

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There are "long acting" formulas that can cause overdose if they are not treated as such. Whether or not they actually *work* as a long-acting drug on goats, I don't know. My understanding is that "standard" LA-200 is not long acting, nor is intended to be. Please correct me if I'm wrong and direct me to where I can read more about this.
 

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Becky, I am SO glad you have good news :). I have had goats for almost 7 years and sometimes I still feel like I am just banging around in the dark.
 

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LA stands for Long Acting 200mg tetracycline, for cattle.

Blood levels taken in goats at 12 hours already showed a marked decrease in the amount of 200 mg tetracylcine in the blood...LA200 was actually the drug tested at the time, so giving it at 24 or 36 hours there was zero amount of the drug in the blood...milk or meat perhaps but that isn't helping it fight the bacteria. So although this is long acting, alot like some of the vet scripts they give you info on giving every 36 hours, if you don't do them at 24 hours, even 25 hours lets the bacteria take hold because there is zero amounts of antibiotic in the blood.

The underuse of antibiotic in dosages, or stopping early is why we have such resistance. Most antibiotics should be used until 12 hours passed relief of the problem you started the antibiotic for. And using antibiotics profilactically...wound or birthing...make sure you pick the correct drug of choice.

Between Haords Dairyman and Goat Medicine, both have thousands of articles of bibliography which if you have a good University near you, you can read the testings, the findings, how the tests were ran, on microphish. Plus it's real information on ruminants. Other than the best goat club with ties to Texas A&M and Grass Farmer mag and UCN you don't need a whole heck of alot more. Vicki
 

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Yes, I know that the "LA" in LA-200 stands for "long acting" but it is not the drug (or drugs) that I am thinking of that are actually considered long-acting in *goats*. There is another one (or more) that are designed to be long acting and if not treated this way, leads to overdose. I don't know them well enough to tell you which one I'm thinking of but if I saw it, I would probably recognize it. I looked through Vet Medicine (Sherman & Smith) and did not recognize the drug I was thinking of.

By the way, there are studies going back to the 1960s that identify issues with tetracycline and bone growth in mammals (starting with humans). This is probably where the concern originated but not having read the studies myself, I can't tell you the conclusions, nor the rebuttals to them. One I found from 1966 is on PubMed but I couldn't get it to load for me from here. Grrrr...
 

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Heather I have said this before, little to nothing moves from single stomached animals information to ruminants, especially small ruminants and even more goats with the fastest metabolisims of goats.

Yes in the 60's is when tetracycline was given to any children with acne...having freckles only my sister got to take it since I was lucky and didn't have acne. It caused darkened areas in the teeth which was persumed and now debunked that it was weak areas in the teeth. To take this information and turn it into tetracycline causing week teeth and bones in goats if given to the dam when bred or kids....considering the drugs were given to teenagers...is a little far reaching. I know it is stated all over the internet on goat sites, and even say it on a dog site recently...but it doesn't make it true, logicaly or something that happens on the farm.

There are many times I feel very sorry for those who are new trying to desern between what is really just nonsense and what is fact on the internet. Course it's no worse than being stuck with only information from local folks, unless local folks are challenged by teaching universities. Vicki
 
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