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There is only so much you can do to protect yourself. Saying that people who contracted covid have only themselves to blame is like saying innocent bystanders killed by drunk drivers have only themselves to blame. You can't do much when a drunk going 90 mph suddenly veers into your lane and hits you head on any more than you can prevent a covid infected person from jumping in front of you and coughing directly in your face.

The majority of the people infected on that first quarantined cruise ship did nothing to put themselves at risk. The majority of patients infected at nursing homes did nothing to put themselves at risk.
If you are wearing your mask and glasses then a cough to your face should not be a covid issue.

A drunk at 90 mph is already breaking many laws that were created to prevent the problem. Your best hope in dealing with such a wreck is trying for whatever avoidance you can and in having selected a vehicle to drive that enhances your chances.

Those on the ship seemed to have failed in a variety of things they could have done to help them self’s.

I agree those in the nursing homes were victims. Just as they would have been when catching the flue or other illness from CAREGIVERS improperly doing their job and failing to follow already existing rules.
 

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According to everything the current swing is saying, your mask won't protect YOU. You wear a mask to protect others from getting your germs. If masks worked, the states where they are mandatory would not have increasing case numbers.

Just like the drunk drivers, people who know they are infected and go out into the public anyway, are putting others at risk. At least the drunks have the argument of having impaired judgement on their side.

But you believe what you want to believe. I have worthwhile things to accomplish.
 

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According to everything the current swing is saying, your mask won't protect YOU. You wear a mask to protect others from getting your germs. If masks worked, the states where they are mandatory would not have increasing case numbers.

Just like the drunk drivers, people who know they are infected and go out into the public anyway, are putting others at risk. At least the drunks have the argument of having impaired judgement on their side.

But you believe what you want to believe. I have worthwhile things to accomplish.
I still haven't received an answer on where I can purchase that special 1 way fabric.

Logically, if something can sneak through the fabric of a mask from the outside, they should be able to sneak out from the inside.

I see masks often being discussed as a positive way to control the virus but our two major cities that have very rigid mask laws are seeing a strong increase in infections and communities who are relying more on social distancing and hand santizer at the doors are seeing declines or no new infections.

Perhaps rural logic is more effective than random, ill conceived laws.
 

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Too simple.

When the business or living causes damage to more than it helps.
I wouldn't consider that humane because that also includes those who have committed suicide, homes lost and a direct lack of concern for those seniors that don't want to be locked away from the comfort of family or to die alone.

Collateral damage would be a much better term than humane.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
I wouldn't consider that humane because that also includes those who have committed suicide, homes lost and a direct lack of concern for those seniors that don't want to be locked away from the comfort of family or to die alone.

Collateral damage would be a much better term than humane.
I consider it humane to protect someone from something that will shorten their life. There is always a tipping point between where the good outweighs the bad. Ways have been found to address the need to protect them from the virus and still provide family comfort and prevent people from dying alone. Seems that your area is not doing well in that respect and you are railing at that. Here they are using the lessons learned since the advent of the virus. PPP, testing, masks, and social distancing.

Then of course I may have a different perspective than you do because I have in the past experienced the need for all those things with sick family. Where we could not touch because of contagions and had to make do with other ways of keeping close. Our tipping point was to enable our loved ones to live a longer life with some short term loss of closeness. I can say it was worth it.
 

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In your world, we don't need, food inspectors or laws about no arsenic in your flour.
No one but you has said any such thing.

I could give a thousand but it wont matter to you so I won't bother.
You use that line a lot too.

Then of course I may have a different perspective than you do because I have in the past experienced the need for all those things with sick family.
You do love to think you are "special". :)

Divert and distract.
It's what you do when you run out of facts pertaining to the real topic.
Patterns...........
 

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I consider it humane to protect someone from something that will shorten their life. There is always a tipping point between where the good outweighs the bad. Ways have been found to address the need to protect them from the virus and still provide family comfort and prevent people from dying alone. Seems that your area is not doing well in that respect and you are railing at that. Here they are using the lessons learned since the advent of the virus. PPP, testing, masks, and social distancing.

Then of course I may have a different perspective than you do because I have in the past experienced the need for all those things with sick family. Where we could not touch because of contagions and had to make do with other ways of keeping close. Our tipping point was to enable our loved ones to live a longer life with some short term loss of closeness. I can say it was worth it.
My area is no different than anyplace else. We are certainly allowed to see our family member if they are within a certain number of days of death with no restrictions but what about the months before? Family visits to people in extended care facilities are restricted to a certain number of very specific family members so those from larger families have to pick and chose who can't visit but that doesn't account for the collateral damage from the last several months does it?

Not everybody in extended care declines before they die and I know quite a few that have died alone in the last several months. I call the collateral damage and I really don't feel it was humane, even if it can be justified in some manner.

You also neglected to address the other collateral damages I mentioned. Do you truly feel those who lost businesses and the families of those who committed suicide look upon the experiment as humane? I don't think they do.

I accept that you think it was justified and mabe it was but I don't accept the idea that it was as humane as you claim.
 

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I think it's inhumane to try to dictate to someone else what they can and cant be doing with their own life. Within reason, I suppose serial killers shouldn't be allowed to run free but most of the rest is a bunch of BS. I just LOVE it when some elitist thinks they know what's best for me.....
 

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Discussion Starter #72
I don't believe any collateral damage is justified nor did I ever say that. I however am realistic. Collateral damage will happen no matter what choice is made. No shutdowns and people in those jobs and businesses will also die because they get infected. Medical staff will be overwhelmed and face PSTD because they can't save people and see them die without their loved ones. Medical staff have already committed suicide because of what they were faced with and went through. Businesses will be lost because of the deaths of the owners.

There is a tipping point and everyone is working on solutions to balance the good with the bad. Mistakes are made on both sides. You post like you think that others are inhumane because they are struggling to find the path that does the least damage. No, they are just human and don't have all the answers.
 

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I don't believe any collateral damage is justified nor did I ever say that. I however am realistic. Collateral damage will happen no matter what choice is made. No shutdowns and people in those jobs and businesses will also die because they get infected. Medical staff will be overwhelmed and face PSTD because they can't save people and see them die without their loved ones. Medical staff have already committed suicide because of what they were faced with and went through. Businesses will be lost because of the deaths of the owners.

There is a tipping point and everyone is working on solutions to balance the good with the bad. Mistakes are made on both sides. You post like you think that others are inhumane because they are struggling to find the path that does the least damage. No, they are just human and don't have all the answers.
I understand collateral damage and the only reason we headed down this path was because I asked you for clarification on your comment indicating that these and other issues were in your opinion, humane.

I consider them all casualties of ill conceived notions and knee jerk reactions by officials trying to prove to the public they are somehow safer with complex rules that punish some at the expense of a perceived greater good.
 

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I understand collateral damage and the only reason we headed down this path was because I asked you for clarification on your comment indicating that these and other issues were in your opinion, humane.

I consider them all casualties of ill conceived notions and knee jerk reactions by officials trying to prove to the public they are somehow safer with complex rules that punish some at the expense of a perceived greater good.
Nothing too complex about wearing a mask and keeping six feet away from people. Kansas has stats that show

when Laura, our governor, implemented those rules the infection rate went down. Problem is with the whiners

that think they no better than the scientists and Doctors. A brand new deadly disease and the medical community

has had their ups and downs on presenting good data. Because they couldn't come out with the definitive answers

right off the bat, some people declared they didn't know what they were talking about. Such ignorance..
 

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Wr wrote “Because they couldn't come out with the definitive answers
right off the bat, some people declared they didn't know what they were talking about.”

Respectfully, “Not having the definitive answers,” flip flopping recommendations, and abusing the elderly by sequestering them indicated that “they didn't know what they were talking about.”
 

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I however am realistic.
91516


No shutdowns and people in those jobs and businesses will also die because they get infected
That's simply ridiculous.
97% of those infected survive

There is a tipping point
Get a new catch phrase.
You've pushed this one past it's tipping point.

You post like you think that others are inhumane because they are struggling to find the path that does the least damage. No, they are just human and don't have all the answers.
Same old empty, melodramatic rhetoric.

The "experts" say our response has been very good.
I'm still waiting to see some real facts from you. :)
 

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I still haven't received an answer on where I can purchase that special 1 way fabric.

Logically, if something can sneak through the fabric of a mask from the outside, they should be able to sneak out from the inside.

I see masks often being discussed as a positive way to control the virus but our two major cities that have very rigid mask laws are seeing a strong increase in infections and communities who are relying more on social distancing and hand santizer at the doors are seeing declines or no new infections.

Perhaps rural logic is more effective than random, ill conceived laws.
I have said repeatedly that if masks worked the covid cases would be dropping, not rising, in areas where mask use is required.

But then, maybe masks would work if people wore them properly. Hand washing might work if done properly. Social distancing might work if done properly.
 

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I don't believe any collateral damage is justified nor did I ever say that. I however am realistic. Collateral damage will happen no matter what choice is made. No shutdowns and people in those jobs and businesses will also die because they get infected. Medical staff will be overwhelmed and face PSTD because they can't save people and see them die without their loved ones. Medical staff have already committed suicide because of what they were faced with and went through. Businesses will be lost because of the deaths of the owners.

There is a tipping point and everyone is working on solutions to balance the good with the bad. Mistakes are made on both sides. You post like you think that others are inhumane because they are struggling to find the path that does the least damage. No, they are just human and don't have all the answers.
Those that go to their job or business by choice and die as a result, no problem whatsoever.

Medical staff that might have to deal with PSTD because they went to work of their on free will? It’s their choice and they should own it. As in many professions, if they do not wish to deal with the possible problems, then they should do something else. If they went to work of their on free will trying to help others, and they could not handle it, then perhaps they should be given some assistance to deal with it. The medical field does not deserve anymore than the military or law enforcment for a couple examples. End of sympathy.
 

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If the mask issue is so important then why after all of this time are mask of actual use to the person WEARING them not commonly available for the public after all of this time? Why are the documents about the mask we have available so full of terms such as could, should, probably, etc. Many do not seem to realize they are being played.
 

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Nothing too complex about wearing a mask and keeping six feet away from people. Kansas has stats that show

when Laura, our governor, implemented those rules the infection rate went down. Problem is with the whiners

that think they no better than the scientists and Doctors. A brand new deadly disease and the medical community

has had their ups and downs on presenting good data. Because they couldn't come out with the definitive answers

right off the bat, some people declared they didn't know what they were talking about. Such ignorance..
I don't find the laws consistent and that's what bothers me. If could explain why restaurants reopened before playgrounds, golf courses opened before people in extended care facitlites were allowed out for a breath of fresh air or why a bar can host more people than a funeral or church service, I'd be grateful.

I've asked several times and nobody has been able to answer my question about masks. Can you explain the special qualities of the cheap masks that most are relying on for safety. Any science I've read indicates that they don't keep the virus in or out.

Perhaps the news is different in the US but we have daily reports of major outbreaks and last I heard, we have as many people in ER now as we did when we were locked down but oddly the same mess is considered under control now but not under control in March. What is the difference?

Additionally, I would ask why, you feel the need to insult anyone who finds fault in policies or decisions that make no sense?
 
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