Thoughts on registered vs not

Discussion in 'Goats' started by wolfheart23, Jul 30, 2006.

  1. wolfheart23

    wolfheart23 Well-Known Member

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    Just wanted to get other's thoughts on having registered vs non-registered goats. I don't have any goats yet, it will unfortunately be a while, but I figure now is the time to do my research. I am not necessarily interested in showing them; mainly interested in having milk and some meat, probably would sell off "excess" babies as needed. I have read a bit about the different breeds and the ones that interest me most are the Nubians, LaManchas and Kinders. I am not against having mixed breeds either. I suppose the main qualities I would be looking for are decent milkers (I would definitely have a couple of goats as we are a large family - five kids :) ) and gentle dispositions. I realize that the breed does not guarantee the disposition, but looking for generalities. Your thoughts on the matter are appreciated! :)
     
  2. KSALguy

    KSALguy Lost in the Wiregrass Supporter

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    for the does it wouldnt probably matter much, as long as she is a good size for what you need and an adaquat milker and you wouldnt need registerd stock for that, BUT the BUCK you breed too should be the BEST available so that you KNOW what your getting, the Buck is = to Half your heard as he can Improve your herd substancially or could Hurt your herd substancially, so i would get any Doe that meets your requirments regardless of breed or registerd statas sence mixbreed does can be Great for what you want, but there is no way to be sure on a non registerd purebred buck what you will get,
     

  3. Caprice Acres

    Caprice Acres AKA "mygoat" Staff Member Supporter

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    I have unregistered pygmy goats... and most people say they don't even look like pygmy goats, but I highly preffer them that way. I kinda think purebred, registered pygmies look funny and are just undesireable to me. Also, because of thier shape, they have kidding problems. My unregistereds are unconstrained by the standards and are therefore more naturally shaped and don't have as many kidding problems.
    I am looking halfheartedly for a nubian doe. Wether registered or not doesn't matter in the least, I'm just not gonna pay an arm and a leg for it. If you aren't gonna show, your animal doesn't need papers.
     
  4. dbarjacres

    dbarjacres Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What I find is if you pay a big more for registered animals, you have offspring worth that much more. Initial investment is more, but payback is more. You can always ask a certain price for registered offspring and if it's a bad year or you have excess, drop the price a bit. Registration does not guarantee quality tho in anything!

    Lamanchas are great. We breed Nigerian Dwarfs and Mini Manchas and the minis have great temperments from the Lamanchas.
     
  5. rranch

    rranch Well-Known Member

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    I personally have both. The unregistered animals have pros and cons. There is a market for both as long as they are of good stock. Mine can be registered with alot of paperwork and for what. They are not worth any more money, not show quality, and some are just wethers that will be pets anyway. On the other hand my unr doe needs to be reg for her babies to be worth more, but its been a long process, almost 4 years. But her kids are so so nice and worth 4x the price as unr. and con go to show. I say most of the time your quality of goats are going to come from reg breeding stock with a rep breeder. Unr stock, who know what you are getting unless you know the person well.
     
  6. Blue Oak Ranch

    Blue Oak Ranch Well-Known Member

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    Since it costs just as much in fencing, housing, chore time, feed, meds, and effort for unregistered goats - and you get lower prices for unregistered offspring - I'd go with registered every time. With registered goats, you have more options for offspring - you can still sell to a pet market, but you have a wider market with your animals.

    In all reality, I've seen crossbreds selling for $150 - and registered for $175. Is the $25 difference worth it? If all things equal in the quality department, yes. Considering the cost of housing and everything else - the cost of your foundation herd will be small in comparison.

    To get milk, you have to breed and have babies - and having quality animals can mean they're sold faster (less cost to you to raise) and you have the milk free for your use. It costs a lot, feedwise, to raise an animal - do you really want $25 or $50 in remuneration for several months' work?

    I raise Mini Nubians - and love them. They're cute, give lots of rich sweet milk - and they're easier to handle. I have a lot of pet homes waiting for my kids for this reason alone.

    Cheers!

    Katherine
     
  7. collegeboundgal

    collegeboundgal -Melissa

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    When folks say "papers don't matter" I reply "then you have no idea what you’re getting". Think about it. If you have the papers you can see who the back ground stock was/is on your animal. With un-reg. you have NO idea where or who they came from. With papered stock you do have a pretty good idea how your doeling SHOULD turn out. The difference around here is a big one when comparing prices. un-reg at about $75-100 for full grown does vs. $200 for a 3 month doeling I sold 2 days ago. Big difference.

    Melissa
     
  8. Milk n' Honey

    Milk n' Honey Well-Known Member

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    OK, I say...go with registered. If you are looking for something to provide milk and meat for your family, get something that is being bred to the highest standard for that purpose. That way you are not paying for feed for twice as many animals to meet your needs. Say you buy two unregistered Sannen does for milk and you breed them. They come into milk and you are getting 2 quarts/day/goat. Great. Well, what if you can buy 1 registered Sannen doe from a reputable breeder (breeding for show or just high milk quantities) who has knowledge that her Momma gives 4 quarts (1 gallon)/day. You know the genetics are there. Plus, if they are breeding for show, the chances are that you'll have little problems with udder attachment, bad teats, etc. Milking does who are shown in ADGA have to be in milk to be shown so they are being milked at home. These breeders know what they have to offer. Plus, the health of the herd is generally kept a closer eye on since there are certain requirements of show stock. So, basically, you could spend $200 on 2 unregistered goats or $150-$200 on a registered one. Look at how many unknowns there are with the unregistered ones and how many risks are involved. You are using these animals for food for your family too. You want to healthiest animals possible, right? You don't want to have to pay feed and vet bills on twice as many animals to get the same amount of milk as you could get from 1 better quality animal who is more genetically sound. You'll have to do some research. Papers don't guarantee anything but no papers is such a gamble. The same goes for meat goats. If there aren't papers, you have no idea how many breeds are involved or what the percentages are. Background info is usually not available and if it is, is it reliable? The standard has a purpose and that is to ensure an animal that can physically meet the requirements for milk and meat production. In the long run, you'll be glad you researched breeders and bought from a reputable breeder who offers registered animals.

    As far as the breed goes...make sure you know how much milk and meat you wish to get and then figure how many animals you want to keep to fill that requirement. Kinders and any other smaller breed is going to give you less than the larger ones. It may be plenty for what you are after but you have to care for that many more animals. Yes, the food they eat might be somewhat relative to what you receive from them but you have 4 hooves per animal to trim and care for, shots, dewormer and whatever else per animal. If you have a lot of spare time to put into them and don't care about the money or the work, I'd say you could safely do whatever you want. However, if you are looking for the most practical method, go with a couple of large breed dairy does. Get registered ones. You'll have better results all the way around. Plus, you'll have no problems selling the offspring without having to dump them at the nearest auction. Once you get two does out of them, you should have your money back for your initial investment. I don't know where you live but Nubians are scarce around here so when one becomes available, it sells pretty quick. See what people like in your area and that may sway your decision about what breed to get. No offense to Lamancha breeders but most people (not including me) in my area don't like them. Now, I know they are sweet natured but if nobody else cares how sweet they are and doesn't like the way they look, how can I get any money out of my offspring? Lamanchas are known to be one of the most docile breeds. Nubians are pretty and their milk has a high fat content for more versatility (butter, ice cream, etc,) but they are noisy! Sannens are good natured also and produce a ton of milk (up to 1 gallon/day) but some people don't like that they are all white. Their milk is not quite as rich as the Nubian. I've heard that Alpines are a bit flighty but maybe that is wrong...they are very pretty. You want to like what you see because you have to look at them everyday and care for them so make sure you get what you like. You might want to taste some of the milk from the breed you choose before purchasing an animal. They don't all taste the same. Also, if you do go with unregistered animals and you see 4 or more teats, it is crossed with a Boer and you might not like the milk at all. OK, I've rambled on long enough. That is my 2 cents (maybe the whole dollar - hehehe) for what it's worth. All in all, you'll have fun with whatever you choose to do, I'm sure. Goats are wonderful!! Take care and good luck!!
     
  9. cmharris6002

    cmharris6002 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    While I agree with what has been said about registered does, I am breeding my 8 purebred, registered Nubians to non-registered Pygmy bucks. I plan to find out for myself how the resulting non-registerable Kinders pan out as far as quality and sell ability. According to my research, crosses kid easier and have better general health. I already know if I want to make good money on my Nubians I’d have to pay over $500 for an awesome buck or invest in A.I. I would also have to hit the show circuit and make myself known. I just can’t make that kind of a commitment while I still have young children.

    The prices for goats, registered and non, are close. I have seen some nice quality Nubian/Alpine crosses with excellent udders and nice width standing next to so-so pure bred Nubians.

    So I’d say get a beautiful doe, look at her kids, sire, dam, sisters, etc. Find out her kidding and health history. Look at where she lives now and examine the husbandry she has received. Because if she really is a good doe, it wont matter much if she is pure bred or not.

    Christy
     
  10. wolfheart23

    wolfheart23 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks all for your advice! I haven't made any decisions yet, still have a while before I can get some goats, but it gives me alot to think about. I am toying with the idea of doing what cmharris6002 is doing - getting a Nubian doe and crossing it with a Pygmy buck to see if I like the offspring, rather than initially buy Kinders, that way I can have more that one option for breeding. So much time to plan...... :)
     
  11. ozark_jewels

    ozark_jewels Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Registered goats: You can see what you are getting and you know where they came from. You can follow that pedigree back and see what your lines are capable of. You can show(if you so desire). You can also cater to both types of buyers. You can certainly ask higher dollar for the kids. If I have a choice, I go registered every time. Thats not to say I won't buy an unpapered doe if she is awesome and a good milker......but I *prefer* a papered doe of the same quality. :)
     
  12. caroline00

    caroline00 Well-Known Member

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    well, after careful consideration and thinking of the pros and cons, we have decided to not register our goats.

    WE are a small family farm and only looking to provide our needs. WE are against NAIS but realize that many in ADGA are for it... When NAIS happens, we dont want to be a part of ADGA since they seem to be more for it than against it. This has been a hard decision to make since we have always registered our goats and have had goats off and on (but mainly on) since about 1988.
     
  13. goatkid

    goatkid Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you think you may ever want to show your goats or you have kids interested in 4H, I'd go for the registered goats. Also, If you want decent money for your doelings, I'd use registered stock. I sometimes sell registered does at a lower price. These are the does I am culling from my herd who are healthy animals, but do not have show quality udders. They still make milk and, bred to the right buck can produce doelings who show improvements in the udder. At least where I live, if a doe is tattooed and registered, we do not have to put in scrapie tags for showing them - only for auctions. There are many of us in ADGA who are not in favor of NAIS. It would be a real pain in the butt for us as most of us have small herds and are not wealthy, nor do we need more paperwork. I also consider it a violation of my civil rights.
     
  14. KSALguy

    KSALguy Lost in the Wiregrass Supporter

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    there is always the unregisterd GOOD QUALITY does and breed them to a registerd BEST QUALITY buck, you can register the doelings as percents and work up if you want,
     
  15. ozark_jewels

    ozark_jewels Well-Known Member Supporter

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    AMEN!!!!!
     
  16. ozark_jewels

    ozark_jewels Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Exactly. I am doing so with all the grades I keep.....so I expect to have all registered stock in a few years. I have a couple of experimentals that I think I may show next year...... :)
     
  17. caroline00

    caroline00 Well-Known Member

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    actually, I wasnt talking about the general members but more about the people in the upper eschelon who have some clout.

    Already, you use your ADGA registration numbers for scrappie tags (at least that is my understanding... I have not lived in an area that demands scrappie tags)

    We dont want to be in a position where we find our farm registered because it is registered already with someone else.

    I am in favor of a *voluntary* NAIS. Even things that most people feel is good for society is usually voluntary to some extent (childhood immunizations even have exceptions with known penalties in case of epidemics) I dont see any exceptions at all allowed the way NAIS is currently written up.
     
  18. Milk n' Honey

    Milk n' Honey Well-Known Member

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    I would assume that you are referring to Boer crossed with other breeds? I don't know of any other breed besides Boer that you can register percentages. So, if this person is considering buying Boer buck than this could apply to him but if not, non-registered animals will not be of any help.

    Wolfheart23 - You said that you were wanted to raise goats for some milk and meat. Kinders will be OK for an average amount of milk but will be a terrible option for meat. You won't get much meat off a dairy goat crossed with a pygmy. You have a large family so you'll be milking 3-4 Kinders, at least, to have enough milk for that many people...that is, if you use milk often. Kinders, as far as I know, are not registerable in any case. They are more of a novelty, I believe. People buy them for pets and sometimes use them for milk. You would be narrowing your possibilities down quite a lot. You are not going to be able to market these animals as broadly as you would something full-blooded and registered. Sometimes it is difficult to get rid of excess animals because there isn't enough demand for pet homes and you don't want to find yourself dumping them at the sale barn to be butchered. I'm not trying to tell you what to do but please take these things into consideration. I've heard a lot of good opinions of Kinders but check the market in your area. Do you have a lot of demand for pet goats? You can't show them, right? How many people will want to buy a small goat who produces half the milk when they can buy a large breed and get twice the milk. Both have to be fed and cared for. Just consider all pros and cons. Take care and good luck with whatever you decide!! :)
     
  19. ozark_jewels

    ozark_jewels Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You can register dairy doe kids out of any registered ADGA recognized breed. Those are considered percentages. You can do this with every breed that I know of. You can get papers on anything in your herd as long as it follows some sort of breed standard. If another member of ADGA will come over, look at your unregistered Lamancha, as long as she fits Lamancha breed standards, you can register her as Native On Appearence and breed up from there, always using a registered buck. It won't help in the sales department, but I do believe you can show it.
     
  20. caroline00

    caroline00 Well-Known Member

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    when we first went into goats, my husband was taking a registered Nubian buck to someone who agreed to buy him. When he got home, he had no money and the homliest LaMancha doe I had ever seen. Her udder, completely full was about 5" in diameter. Supposedly she had come out of a Nubian doe but didnt have any sort of Roman Nose nor length to her ears at all. I called her *Auction*

    He talked me into breeding her once... so I registered her *native on appearance* since she did meet breed standards.. but had a tiny udder.
    Her kids took 1st in the show ring... her grandkids took best of show... It really tweaked purists that a recorded grade took BOS but as the judge said, and I believe it was Constadine.... *if the best goat of the show is recorded grade then the best goat we've got is recorded grade. You all have a lot of work to do to beat these goats*

    so if you want to register, then do it, even if it isnt a purebreed...that gives you a place to breed up from.