Thinking of trying to Homestead. Need advice!

Chuck, you're not nuts. You're in a tough spot, for sure. What's enough for me may not be enough for you and your family. And it would probably be hard to make such a big adjustment unless the entire family is excited about doing it. Selling out and moving away is a life change that I wouldn't call "an escape". You need to be pretty involved.

I'm in NY State, about 1/2 hour north of Binghamton. We have a couple of large colleges here, and the usual hospital jobs. I work for the state, at the Psychiatric Center. I bought 5 undeveloped acres, put in a well, septic, driveway, and gravel pad for a mobile home. I bought an old mobile and put in a new propane furnace and hot water heater. I fenced a large yard area, built a chicken coop and bought a shed, 10' x 16'. I spent around $30K. Many folks could not live this way (think "white trash" :haha: ) I've never been happier!

I'm 46 years old. This is something I've wanted to do for most of my adult life. I waffled for years, I was afraid, what if I can't make it, blah, blah, blah........ So I hung around the homesteading forums for close to 5 years. I saved as much money as I could, and read everytning I could get my hands on concerning country living. Remember, there are a wide range of lifestyles represented amoung us. (I'll have to work full-time for close to 20 more years. I need my health insurance). Some of us live alone, some homeschool several children. Some of us actually make money from home, others have a few chickens and rabbits. Do you subscribe to Countryside Magazine? Do that, and read some of the archive material. Take enough time to really think about what you'd hope to achieve living in the country. Talk to the family. Keep us posted, 'cause I'm already feeling excited for you!

 

I am sure you will get lots of very knowledgeable advice here.

Based on what we did thirty years ago, I would say that you should get your money idea worked out first. You need to figure that out and be responsible for your own finances and level of spending. Figure out how much you can live on. Do not expect to make any money from your place at first.

For us, we had a small duplex rental in Redwood City, CA, and a three bedroom house, with a one bedroom rental in Woodside, CA. The rentals paid all expenses and gave us $300 per month income (that's like about $3,000 now). Plus we had $5,000 (more like $50,000 now - you accountants out there my be able to tell us the real inflation over 30 years). With that much our life was great! We built our on log cabin, bought 160 acres ($2,000) and had money every month for things we thought we needed. We had a big garden, and at the time hunted (previous and now we do not eat meat).

If you build your house and grow your own food, and simplify drastically, then you can figure out how much that will cost. Simplifying drastically can be regarded as wonderful or awful. If the whole gang doesn't think its wonderful to be skilful and "live-off-the-land" then maybe there will be bigger problems than working in the city. Going straight from $80K a year to nothing might be challenging at best.

First, you must have a strong romance and love for being in the country and doing for yourself (and neighbours - who you will help and get help from when needed). After that, you need secondly to have enough money every month. Once you find a way to get that money, then your life can be like a dream.

You need to compare what you can get to what you need.

Good luck,
I agree, commuting sucks - big time - much better on the land or real near your work.

Alex



Our Cabin Today

 

In answer to your question - $90K should be enough to get you set up but then what. That electric bioll comes in every month, the property tax is due every year. Do you have any workable plans past the set up stage to generate monthly income from the start? I think most of us work on or off the homestead at a nonhomestead job at least part=time to pay those every present bills.

 

I agree with everyone that if your family isn't totally on board, you'll be back in the ratrace in six months. And you have to deal with the psychology of this - on 80K and commuting to Manhattan, you've been used to a particular lifestyle, I suspect. Restaurants. Keeping up appearances. Presents for the whole family at the holiday. Not often saying, "we can't afford it." New clothes, not yard sale clothes. Your extended family is going to think that this is insane. Your kids and spouse may as well. Everyone has to be ready to *look* poor as well as be poor - they have to have the confidence to believe that this life is better than keeping up appearances.

We did something similar, but on a smaller scale. DH and I lived in Boston during graduate school, bought a house in a small urban community, and got our first academic jobs, but decided that that wasn't how we wanted to live. But we'd never really gotten into the habit of living up to our new income, and were used to being students. Our only child (at the time, we're up to 3) was 15 months old when we made the move, and so had no opinion on his clothes. And parts of my family farm, so they thought we were only moderately, as opposed to totally insane.

In a practical sense, you need to think this through. Yes, you absolutely can clear 90K and go find land and a house (I'm not sure I'd build unless you are very good at that already - there are plenty of older farmhouses that you can live in while you renovate them that don't cost much more than bare land, and the transition will be a lot nicer than life in a tent), and have some left to buy tools and have a savings, but you'll need an outside job. You aren't going to make a living on the homestead right away, if ever, and you probably won't grow that much of your own food the first year. That will be your learning period.

I would consider parts of rural NY, within driving distance of a small city or large town - St. Lawrence County, Schoharie County, Otsego and Chenango Counties. Next, think about what you are going to do for money - you are going to need benefits with four kids new to the country - someone is going to get hurt at some point, and without insurance, your savings could be gone in hours. If you want to be the farmer, and your wife has useful skills, maybe she could get a job. If not, it will have to be you. Find something not to strenuous, and don't expect to make 80K. Be happy if you get 30-40, but keep your workweek down and recognize that cost of living is as low as you want it to be - you don't *have* to have most of the stuff you've probably got now. You also don't have to be a computer professional - what other skills have you got?

Some websites to look at:

www.valleyviewrealty.com
www.farmsunlimited.com
www.countryboyrealty.com
www.odbr.com
www.northcountrytoday.com
www.krutzproperties.com

Don't get fixated on needing 50 acres. What you need is a house with some bedrooms, and 5-10 acres. That's a lot of land, and more than you'll need for a very long time. Start talking this out seriously with your family. Take them on trips up to see the areas and the properties. Do some job searching. Get your kids some age-appropriate livestock and farming books, and give your old books to your wife to read. And if they don't want to do it, consider something else. For example, you could probably find a decent job in Albany that paid 60K plus, and buy a small house on two acres about 40 minutes west. That way your family would have urban resources and a decent income, but you'd have room enough for a garden, some chickens and goats. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Sharon

 

My parents moved us from the city into the country when I was 5. It wasn't homesteading, but a run down old farm, a house with outdoor plumbing & no insulation. The first winter, my mom says, she wanted to go back... Those wonderful stories we speak / hear so much about, ie. the hardships, are REAL. If you're never lived frugally, in poverty, on the edge of financial & emotional collapse, wondering how you're gonna feed your family, heat the house, etc., homesteading and/or farming can give you first hand experience. It's a different kind of stress. Having lived in the city the first 18 years of marriage, and then moving my family into the country (still work in cities), I have a certian advantage.

What's interesting, the day to day stuff my wife and I (both from farms), grew up with, our kids are just learning. Animals come first, before we do. We grew up feeding & watering 2x a day, tending to their needs early mornings, before we ate breakfast - they were our source of income. Now that they've seen the fruits of their labor, the complaining about the daily chores has ceased! My kids learned how to raise, handle, care for and market turkeys and ducks - my wife and I gave minimal help, usually a reminder of how important the birds are... obvious to us, but they needed to experience it first hand. We coached them on how to address & sell the birds in the farmers markets, presentation, phone manners, etc.. All life skills we took for granted because we grew up with it.

Because there are TAXES, and INSURANCE, I don't see how anyone can "live off the land" in the complete sense. Either you're made your money beforehand, or you've got a product to market. I subscribe to HomePower magazine, and these guys live off the grid in the middle of nowhere. They have a product to sell - but I'll bet behind all the rosey sounding articles, they're working, sweating, agonizing, and wonder from time to time where their next meal or how the blown engine in the car is gonna get repaired/replaced. Home Remedies might carry you through the minor stuff, but if your child's appendix ruptures, who's doing the surgery, or paying for it?

The cost of liability insurance for my parent's business was near $5000 twenty years ago, it made sense to insure more than just properties, but the 95 animals we used to put food on the table (horses). One lawsuit could have ended our country living. If you're selling a food product (eggs, meat, veggies), or live animals, the prospect of losing everything through one act of negligence is very real! The bigger your operation, the bigger the target. People are less forgiving for accidents, insurance companies even less forgiving - somebody always pays. When my nephew burnt down the shop last year, it had to be replaced. It was hard to believe that little warm torch could ignite a damp rag - oil jug - car - metal building and turn it into a smouldering mess while he ran to the hardware store.

Having come FROM the country, and now returning TO the country, I envy neither city nor country dwellers. Men are usually concerned with providing the bulk of the $$ and infastructure - stressful in either case / place. The hours are LONGER on a farm and the vacations are SELDOM. We were blessed with a neighbor that took on taking care of our animals this year. But, on the ranch I was raised on, somebody stayed behind for chores. When you livelyhood depends on the care of livestock, you're gonna be REAL careful about temporary care.

To make our transition to the farm is still in progress. We grew a big garden in the city, and started buying those 'tools' to make the transition happen. Again, being raise on a farm/ranch, we have a working knowledge of what we'd need to make things work. It takes more than a chain saw to build a cordwood house, and you'll get tired of hand mixing cement in tubs - despite what the glossy magazines imply. Book / magazine knowledge might help you with the design & layout, but plain old common sense, practical experience and willing neighbors goes a long way towards bringing your dreams to fruition. I think web sites like this are helpful in thinking things through - it's helped me and my family.

Sorry, ... I have a fault for long messages, just like to write, I guess...
Bill

 

Bill, I'm not sure I agree that men end up providing the bulk of the money *and* infrastructure - I see a lot of the opposite. Men provide the money, and some "big project work" but women, often a SAHM, homeschooling Mom are the ones to do the day-to-day labor. That's why I'd be especially careful to be sure that the original poster's wife wants to do this - if she's going to be the one homeschooling the kids, she'll be the one hoeing the garden, chasing the animals back in when they get out, canning, cooking, hauling water, making sure everyone is fed and cared for.

Most of what you said is right on the money, but I would point out that I think that there's a good chance that this fantasy is going to be a lot more fun for the man than the woman, who is stuck with the day labor.

Sharon

 

The answer is yes and no to all of your questions. I left NY 20yrs. ago with everything in 2 trucks and a trailer. I am financially well behind everyone I left. Was it worth it? To me it was to others it wasn't. I have inlaws that stuck out the rat race until retirement. They have pensions and have sold their house for half a million. They can buy houses, land and everything else they want. Can they buy happiness? ,We'll have to wait and see. Meanwhile I have been happy since I left NY. I have lived the "white trash" life and it suits me fine. Having lived in the Hudson Valley and worked in Manhattan you would have a major life adjustment to do the dream that's in your head. You would probably have more of a struggle keeping your family together. I was an outcast in NY and didn't fit in. I was raised on LI by parents that basically homesteaded on a 60x100 in suburbia. Don't believe it?, I have the pictures to prove it. Goats, chickens, ducks and rabbits in the backyard and the rest was garden. This was in Nassau county about 4mi. from the city line!
I do have a friend that left NY to "homestead". It only took 100 acres, a pond and a $300,000 house to keep his wife. Oh yea, I forgot about the new Suburban so she could go shopping and visiting back in NY. And now that his kids have gotten older guess where they are?,Back in NY. His daughter lives in Manhattan and his son on the Island. So how much does it cost him now not to live in NY?

 

Thanks for filling in that gap! I was trying to word that in a general way - but you hit it right on the mark! Absolutely correct in saying the woman SAHM (like my wife), keeps everything running while I'm out building the next structure, electrical, plumbing, digging ponds, putting up fences - hence "infastructure". My wife has the daily drugery, I'm the guy that gets to troubleshoot the generator in the rain & sleet, fix the roof, keeping the heat & water going, etc.. She's also the one that gets to see the little stuff first hand, the memories... the funny kid stuff... she gets to tell me when I get home... sigh.

You know you're really in for it, when you walk up to the house, stepping over the toys, chicken poop, dog & cat fur, and she's at the door, baby in outstreached arms with that look on her face and the floor behind her is barely visable. Then you realise that chocolate, bath oil beads, massage oil, scented candles, herb tea and snuggly blanket WAS a good deal - and you should have bought it all.

Come to think of it, has any farmer's wife ever have time to watch a TV soap? :no: Correction - in the hospital, after delivery, back surgery, hip replacement..

Bill

 

Chuck, we are doing exactly what you describe right now, just on a smaller scale. We lived in Southern NH, husband had a good paying job, had the 1500 month mortgage payment, the debt etc.

We sold the house (closes in 2 weeks!) and paid off all our debt in the process. We are buying a 5 bedroom farm on 14.5 acres in N Maine and will have a very small mortgage. My husband will continue to work full time, but we will raise as much food as we can on our own and just live life simpler.

One of our biggest reasons for doing this was our children. We wanted to give them a simpler life and give them the chance, when grown, to own land and be self-sufficient. To us, working 70 hours a week to earn enough $ to pay the 1500 mortgage, car, credit card etc is not living.

We also home school our children and are believers, though we are still searching for a church here.

Good luck in your search and I wish you the best!

 

I left California six years ago and moved to the midwest. I left behind...a very stable job with good benefits and good pay, my entire extended family, a bunch of long-time friends who I was very close with. My kids were 13,11,10,9 and 3 when I moved.

I left because I was sick of the ratrace. Work, come home and do homework, baths, housework. My weekends were full of grocery shopping, errand running and more housework. I had a nice house, new cars and was miserable.

I cashed out my 401K (under $10K), sold the house, packed up a u-haul and moved. Debt free, no credit cards, no car payment.

Moving was not easy. There was a huge amount of culture shock and homesickness, both for me and my kids. We moved into a house that cost $20,000. It was adequate, but I had never even SEEN a basement, much less had to deal with a scary, wet, DIRT one!!!!! We were very, very broke for most of the first couple years. I did end up with a job that paid better than what I was making in CA, but I quit to farm full time.

Things are better now. My children no longer talk of moving "back home". My parents and I have a better relationship than we ever did living close to each other. I do not have friends like I did, but I have not put much effort into that. I have my farm, my animals and that's good enough for me.

Sit down with a calculator, your debts and your wife. Figure out what can go, what can't. Discuss this with her and see what you figure out.

Have you considered the thought that this is typically what is referred to as a mid-life crisis? I don't think that's a bad thing and the time spent in mid-life reasessing where we are can be a tool for positive change, just be sure that you think things through on an intellectual level and also deal with the feeling level as well. Don't let your feelings lead you to poor or hasty decisions.

Jena

 

Well that sounds like a bit of an easier transition, definitely. And the answer is, yes, sure you can. I admit, I still think the weakest point in your plan is building the earth sheltered /cordwood house - are you going to build it yourself? How and when? Do you have the skills? Can you build *fast?* If you are going to have someone build it, I'm not sure you can find land and build a house under 90K.

No offense, but even when you describe your "scaled back, non-consumer" lifestyle, it sounds pretty extravagant to me - and I used to live in Boston. Two newish vehicles? A house that costs 2K a year to heat? I live in a 3000 sq foot farmhouse built well before the days of insulation, and we pay less than 1/2 that *if* we use oil all winter instead of wood. And we manage with 1 1/2 (we carpool with neighbors) vehicles, neither of them new, both bought for under 3K and none with more than 1K of repairs in them. I don't mean to be discouraging, but I think it makes sense to go into this with eyes open, and to have you realize that even near NYC, 80K is a lot of money (ask all the people making far less than that - trust me, there are plenty), and that while costs of living are much lower in the country, living on 30-40K is going to involve real changes - things like giving up pricey activities for your kids, cutting back on those pizzas, getting rid of the car payments and the habit of owning cars that require expensive repairs (ie, learning to do your own simple repairs and knowing how to buy and maintain cheaply).

I'm sure you can find a job paying 30-40K - look at universities, smaller cities, school districts, hospitals. I'm sure you can find cheap land or a house. I'm sure you can grow a bigger garden. I'm sure you can live more cheaply. All of those things are feasible - many people on this board do them. It sounds like you have the right basic attitude. But the question you are asking seems like not quite the correct one - not, "how little can we live on" but "how much can we change our expectations"

Sharon

 

edgerunner2000 - I understand what you mean when you say 80K did not provide an 'extravagent' (sp?) lifestyle. I think many people don't realize exactly *how* expensive New York is. I moved from NYC in 1987. I remember paying over $300/month for heat in the winter in a studio (one room) apartment!!

I grew up in Upstate New York (Schoharie county). Taxes will kill you. You might want to consider other parts of the country, someplace with lower taxes and a more moderate climate.

I am in pretty much the same situation you are in. I was laid off from my IT job (outsourced to India) and I used to work in the World Trade Center. Stuff like that really makes you think.

You need to have some serious talks with your wife and family NOW!! The kids are old enough to understand the situation. Obviously the money you have isn't going to last forever so you have to decide what you want (and can) do. But the backing of your family is of paramount importance.

(Speaking of family, my son wants to use the computer so I'll check back in later....)

 

You're not the only one thinking like this so you might have to go a distance. I was visiting in W.Mass. about 4 hrs. from NYC. there are a lot of new houses being built in the area. When I asked my BIL he said it was all NYC workers looking to get away from the city. He's in construction so it's helped him work wise, but things are getting very expensive in any rural area around NYC. He's 4hrs. away from the city and I'm sure it's going on even furthur away.

 

the above post was mine and the quote below... i guess i typed to long and timed out..