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So, what does the general public expect?

Police jumping on grenades, storming buildings filled with unknown variables, ending up with a larger death toll including police officers dying from friendly fire?

Life doesn't play out like a choreographed Die Hard or Rambo movie where only the bad guys die.

Cops are not cannon fodder to be expected to charge down the guns with no coordinated effort.

Within hours of the school shooting in Uvalde that left 19 students and two teachers dead, Texas Sen. Ted Cruz said armed police need to be stationed in elementary schools. Former President Donald Trump advocated for armed teachers and metal detectors days later in a speech at the National Rifle Association’s annual meeting. Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton dismissed the idea of stronger gun laws in lieu of arming and training citizens.

The political talking point of increasing the presence of police and armed teachers to deter mass shootings traces its origins to 2012—having been famously proposed by NRA head Wayne LaPierre following the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, where 20 children and six staff members were killed. “The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,” he said, as the nation debated tougher gun control measures.

But in the 10 years since, “good guys with guns” have been present or quickly arrived at the scene of nearly every major mass shooting and failed to stop the gunman before he was able to take multiple lives. “Good guys with guns don’t always win gunfights,” says David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center and the Harvard Youth Violence Prevention Center.

In the May 14 mass shooting at a Buffalo, New York supermarket, Aaron Salter—an armed security guard and former police officer—was hailed for his efforts at trying to protect others. At least one of his bullets hit the shooter, but the gunman was protected by an armor-plated vest and he fatally shot Salter—one of 10 victims.

Armed individuals have also been present at the site of major several mass shootings since Sandy Hook. Police and security guards were present at the Route 91 Harvest Music Festival in 2017, and in the Mandalay Bay Hotel where the gunman was located. Sixty people were killed, and more than 400 wounded. At the Pulse nightclub shooting in June 2016, an armed security guard shot at the gunman, who killed 49 people. (Although initially lauded as a hero, some victims’ family members sued the off-duty officer, alleging he remained outside of the establishment to protect himself.)

Armed guards have also failed to stop shooters in schools. In 2018, a shooter killed 10 people at Santa Fe High School in Texas even though two officers were on site and one was wounded trying to stop the gunman. Earlier that year, a school resource officer was on campus at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla.—although he was accused of hiding during the mass shooting, rather than rushing in.

The situation is even more complicated in Uvalde, where conflicting accounts of events have emerged and the police response is being widely criticized. Local police waited for more than an hour before a U.S. Border Patrol tactical team arrived and stormed the classrooms where the gunman barricaded himself—killing him. Texas Department of Public Safety head Steven McCraw said waiting was “the wrong decision, period,” and police conduct is being investigated by the U.S. Justice Department.

However, the first police officer responded to Robb Elementary School within one minute of the initial reports of a gunman with an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle—before the shooter had even entered the school.

“Sometimes having a gun is useful but a lot of times it makes things worse, even when there’s a clear bad guy,” says Hemenway. Perpetrators of mass shootings are more likely to be armed with semi-automatic weapons and high-capacity magazines, which make them capable of firing dozens of rounds. Some—like the gunman in Buffalo—also wear body armor. “Bad guys get such military-style weapons, and now wear protection so that even if you shoot them, they may not get hurt,” Hemenway adds.

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Saltine American
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Laws fail to stop crime.
 

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So, what does the general public expect?
Not sure what they do expect. Pretty sure they don't expect LEO to arrive and just wait outside for an hour while a lunatic is inside killing a bunch of kids.


Police jumping on grenades,
Didn't hear about the presence of grenades.


storming buildings filled with unknown variables, ending up with a larger death toll including police officers dying from friendly fire?

Cops are not cannon fodder to be expected to charge down the guns with no coordinated effort.
If you're making the case that they weren't up to the task. I agree.
 

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Even the cops are admitting mistakes were made. No point defending or indicting them at this point. There will be an investigation. Procedures will be rewritten. Why not wait for results to pass judgement? We may all learn from these tragedies.

I will say this, gun free zones are an open invitation to these acts. Need to learn that lesson soon.
 

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Not sure what they do expect. Pretty sure they don't expect LEO to arrive and just wait outside for an hour while a lunatic is inside killing a bunch of kids.

Didn't hear about the presence of grenades.

If you're making the case that they weren't up to the task. I agree.
O.K.... you've complained a number of times about what you think the LEO's didn't do. How about some positive feedback about what you think they should have done... and be specific please.
 

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If you've not been in a situation like that yourself, it is pretty unfair to judge the officers that were there, considering none of us have any real specific information other than what we read, hear and see on the fake news
 

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We know enough to conclude that they were wrong and did not follow procedure. They should have engaged immediately as that's what protocol specifies.

What we don't know is who in command is responsible for stopping the response. That part need investigation and accountability.

Yes, I expect every cop on scene to engage immediately when there's an active shooter in a school. That is written protocol. Any cop not willing to do that is not fit to serve.

Were you expecting that to be hard to say?
 

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The Prairie Homemaker
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So, what does the general public expect?
In the Uvalde, and most cases, how about they show up sooner than 15 minutes after the calls begin?

How about they answer the calls that came in BEFORE the guy even entered the school?

He was outside firing his gun for 12 minutes. The station is 4 minutes away.

They had just touted their swat team yet NONE of them showed up to stop the guy before he entered the school? No guys with a long gun who could have taken him out?

Really?

I agree that cops are not cannon fodder. However standing between the innocent and the bullet, knife, rock whatever is their JOB. That is the protect part of the oath they swear to.


Maybe these guys need more cadet training. I mean they had Kevlar. The dad who borrowed a gun and rushed the guy didn't.

Maybe he was better trained but he definitely was not better armed than the shooter, or the cops standing around outside.
 

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We know enough to conclude that they were wrong and did not follow procedure. They should have engaged immediately as that's what protocol specifies.
Since you "know enough", please explain how two of the three officers, whom entered the building within the first five minutes, were wounded... sounds like they must have engaged something to me.

What we don't know is who in command is responsible for stopping the response. That part need investigation and accountability.
Agreed.

We don't know much of anything... good or bad... except what is reported in the media. Maybe we should review and count how many times that information has changed since this happened???

Yes, I expect every cop on scene to engage immediately when there's an active shooter in a school. That is written protocol. Any cop not willing to do that is not fit to serve.
And with all of your training, knowledge and experience, all LEO's should follow your expectations... right?

Were you expecting that to be hard to say?
No, but I expected it to be resonable and accurate... I guess my expectations didn't count for much either.
 

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In the Uvalde, and most cases, how about they show up sooner than 15 minutes after the calls begin?

How about they answer the calls that came in BEFORE the guy even entered the school?

He was outside firing his gun for 12 minutes. The station is 4 minutes away.

They had just touted their swat team yet NONE of them showed up to stop the guy before he entered the school? No guys with a long gun who could have taken him out?

Really?

I agree that cops are not cannon fodder. However standing between the innocent and the bullet, knife, rock whatever is their JOB. That is the protect part of the oath they swear to.


Maybe these guys need more cadet training. I mean they had Kevlar. The dad who borrowed a gun and rushed the guy didn't.

Maybe he was better trained but he definitely was not better armed than the shooter, or the cops standing around outside.
SCOTUS says police have no duty to protect. sorry you are on your own that is why it is more important than ever you plan to self rescue.

 

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So, what does the general public expect?
I would disagree with the title of the OP. The same day of the Uvalde shooting there were news reports of a good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun.
If the general gun hating public is looking for a one stop fix all, they are allowing perfection to get in the way of good.
 

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The Prairie Homemaker
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SCOTUS says police have no duty to protect. sorry you are on your own that is why it is more important than ever you plan to self rescue.

Agreed, which is the purpose of the 2nd.
 

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What do I expect? Them to live up to the super commando rep they want by doing all the supposed swat style training and wearing of all the bs tacticool gear. What I dont expect is for them to stand around with their thumbs up their butts listening to children die. Simple enough. And if youre a LEO and the fear of one day being possibly shot etc deters you from doing your duty then you are a liability and need to find new work. Dont get me wrong. Anyone with common sense does not want to be shot. Its fine to worry or fear being shot. It makes you human and normal But if it stops you from doing your job you need different work. How would you feel if all the military operated in this manner. You go to send out a patrol and they refuse because theres a chance they might be shot.
 

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In the Uvalde, and most cases, how about they show up sooner than 15 minutes after the calls begin?
In Uvalde, the initial call was at 11:31. The school resource officer was on scene at 11:31. At 11:35 three Uvalde entered the school through the same door the suspect used.

I don't know about your prior experience but one officer within the same minute and three other officers entering the building within four minutes sounds like pretty good response time to me.

How about they answer the calls that came in BEFORE the guy even entered the school?
They did... maybe if they had transporters???

He was outside firing his gun for 12 minutes. The station is 4 minutes away.
False information... he crashed his truck at 11:27, fired at two civilians outside a business... jumped a fence andn entered the school by 11:32.

They had just touted their swat team yet NONE of them showed up to stop the guy before he entered the school? No guys with a long gun who could have taken him out?
Been watching too many cop shows on t.v. Most SWAT officers are on regular patrol duties until needed in their special role. If any were on actual duty at the time they were likely performing other duties. Some, if not most or even all were likely off duty and home mowing the lawn, cleaning their garage, shopping, etc. "SWAT" teams DO NOT sit around the station waiting for situations where special operations are need... that would be rediculous.

I agree that cops are not cannon fodder. However standing between the innocent and the bullet, knife, rock whatever is their JOB. That is the protect part of the oath they swear to.
Don't know what oath you've been hearing but I've not heard any that say "I swear to take a bullet and die".

Maybe these guys need more cadet training. I mean they had Kevlar. The dad who borrowed a gun and rushed the guy didn't.
Kevlar does not stop rifle bullets at that range... not to mention that a head is not protected by kevlar... nor the femoral artery... nor the jugular vein... nor the carotid artery... nor the brachial artery. All of those can get you just as dead as a shot to the torso.

Though the off duty officers actions were commendable he did not kill the gunman. He did however place himself in harms way to help rescue children from other classrooms.

Maybe he was better trained but he definitely was not better armed than the shooter, or the cops standing around outside.
He was armed with a shotgun... arguably the best weapon to have in that tactical situation.
 

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What do I expect? Them to live up to the super commando rep they want by doing all the supposed swat style training and wearing of all the bs tacticool gear.
I'ye seen that stuff on t.v. but I've not seen it in real life. You have a lot of experience round them super commando types do you?

What I dont expect is for them to stand around with their thumbs up their butts listening to children die. Simple enough.
And where did this happen?

And if youre a LEO and the fear of one day being possibly shot etc deters you from doing your duty then you are a liability and need to find new work. Dont get me wrong. Anyone with common sense does not want to be shot. Its fine to worry or fear being shot. It makes you human and normal But if it stops you from doing your job you need different work. How would you feel if all the military operated in this manner. You go to send out a patrol and they refuse because theres a chance they might be shot.
Agreed. I've know literally thousand of LEO's and military. I've found only a handful that were not fit for the job. Rank and file officers/members don't put up with that stuff at all... they know that a coworkers hesitation could get themselves killed real quick.

Gonna butcher a quote here but bravery is not lack of fear... it's doing your job despite that fear.
 

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I mean they had Kevlar
No amount of Kevlar will stop a rifle bullet. And the officers on scene, were ordered to secure the perimeter. And that is what they did. A small department like Uvalde doesn't have a stand alone SWAT Team. They will have a county wide team, made up from several agencies. If you are calling officers from around the county to a SWAT call out, it will take forty five minutes to an hour just to get them on scene. The first two or three officers on the scene, were the best hope for stopping the shooter. And they tried, two of them got shot.

The real world ain't a made for TV movie.
 
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