Teaching "OUT!" To a Hog Dog

Discussion in 'Homesteading Questions' started by Tango, Feb 15, 2004.

  1. Tango

    Tango Well-Known Member

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    Don't know if this is the right forum but I thought more people would look here than in the swine forum. I have a Catahoula Leopard Dog, that's her in my other thread "American Made." She's just over a year. Several months ago I started letting her help me round up my piglets which roam the property. They're under 20 lbs. for the most part when I let them run loose. She's got the drive and has been great help. Problems started in the past couple of months. She's more prone to be overly rough with them. She chewed down on an escaped 50 lb. gilt (these are razorbacks) and I had to treat the wounds and put the gilt on anitibiotics. Since then she's gotten a taste of hog meat and is getting more problematic with them. Yesterday she tore into the neck of a 20 lb. piglet. I could see the trachea and had to put her down due to the extensive damage. Ceniza has even bitten me (let go as soon as she realized her mistake) when I had a piglet in my arms. She gets way too excited and doesn't respond to commands when ordinarily she does. Ceniza wears an electronic collar when she's working, but she doesn't respond to it when she's after pigs. I've even brought a piglet into the house and corrected her when she nears it. I don't know Ceniza's breeding; I found her as a very young pup. She was alone, no more than 5 weeks old, and filled with parasites. Is there a way to teach her to release and leave them alone or does it sound like she's ruined and should be kept away from the pigs? Thanks in advance. Any help will be appreciated. I can't let her hurt the piglets but really enjoyed working with her before she started all this roughness.
     
  2. moopups

    moopups In Remembrance

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    Your going to have to get physical with this one, she is borderline useless now. Add a choke collar, stout leash, and muzzle when she is near the pigs. Your going to need to teach her to come out at hearing your word to do so. This must be reenforced many times through use of the collar and leash, this is a spry young person's job, been there, done that, can't now. Only after she learns to herd the pigs and follow your commands, then the muzzle can come off.
     

  3. I agree with Moopups. You are going to have to get her attention and let her know that her behavior is not acceptable. It will take you getting physical with her. But make sure and praise her and love her a lot when she does something right. Getting really excited and happy and letting it show in your voice and actions is the best way to let them know they did it right.
     
  4. NOT a choke collar!!! You will crush her trachea....you need and I stress NEED a prong collar otherwise known as a pinch. They look pretty barbaric but I assure you they are not nearly as bad as a choke in actually crushing the dogs neck. Calling a chain a choke collar is as incorrect as most peoples use of the rotton things. They are not designed to actually choke a dog, the idea behind them was an immediate pop and release, that movement giving the dog a quick controlled pinch where the live ring (the one that slides) and the chain come together, unfortunately with a driven dog they continuously pull on the chain and with no stop can and DO often crush their tracheas causing a lifetime cough...or worse.The design of the pinch collar also called the german pinch or prong collar is such that it has a stop it will not break or crush the dogs trachea, it also has the benefit that the prongs are designed to come together and "pinch" all the way around the neck as opposed to the one place where the live ring meets the chain on a correction chain collar. I train german shepards , rottweilers and dobermans in schutzhund and ring sports...I am all to familair with dogs forgetting to "out". If you need step by step details on the best way to go about fixing this problem, I'll be glad to be of what ever assistance I can thru a puter.

    Diana
     
  5. Immaculate Sublimity

    Immaculate Sublimity Seriously?

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    Ugh :rolleyes: That was me above, sometimes I stay logged in ...sometimes I dont...its the rule of the puter gods I guess. Sorry :eek:
    Diana
     
  6. Tango

    Tango Well-Known Member

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    Thanks everyone. I'm relieved to hear that there is still hope. I have both a choke and a prong collar, but prefer the choke collar for its simplicity. I know how to use it so it doesn't choke the dog- it is a simple matter of putting it on right. A friend of mine who has trained in Schutzhund is going to help me teach her to bite and release. I'm also going to get a muzzle which I didn't even think of before. After I get the fence up in the next few weeks, there will be an extra barrier between the loose piglets and the dogs, but she stills needs to learn to obey that no is no even when dealing with piglets. Yesterday she just went over there without me knowing and wreaked havoc. It was too late by the time I heard the commotion.
     
  7. big rockpile

    big rockpile If I need a Shelter

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    Hard Headed Dog :rolleyes: Maybe a 2X4!!

    big rockpile
     
  8. This dog is out of control. You will have to be very firm with it. This sounds cruel but I bet it will work. The next time she doesn't do what you say, when you say, grab it by the back leg and take a stick and beat it until it thinks you are going to kill it. Then when you speak she will listen. I did this once to a hard headed dog and it was the best dog and best friend I ever had. From that point on he would have died defending me. I wish that it wasn't this way, but some of the stronger willed dogs have to be shown for sure who the master is. In my opinion this is a trait of a good dog. You will have to get pretty rough to show this dog who the boss really is. Sorry but if you can't do it just go ahead and put the dog down. This will be a great dog that will love and obey you if you show her who is boss. It only takes one time if it is done right. They are alot tougher than you think. Make the fur fly and make a friend for a long time.
    MIKE
     
  9. Have you thought about a muzzle? or would that keep her from controlling the hogs? I haven't seen a dog yet that wasn't miserable when I put one on them. Use it for control and punishment when she gets rough and it will protect the piglets in the meantime...
     
  10. TedH71

    TedH71 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I raise catahoulas and they will only get rough on smaller pigs..not the big ones who can whoop their butts. It's consider normal for them to kill smaller pigs out in the hog hunts. They have been bred to pick on animals and make them chase them and they repeat it daily til they bring the animal to your pen or have you come and get the pig. A mad wild hog is a truly dangerous animal the equilvaent of a grizzly bear. They can stab, slash, and bite with their tusks. May I recommend that you check out this website: www.catahoulaleopard.com/ or their forum: www.catahoulaleopard.com/forum/ Most people here on the homesteading website have no idea what to do with cur dogs (blue lacys, blackmouth curs, and catahoulas) because their behavior is so different from other dogs...catahoulas are considered part red wolf because it's in their genetic make up..blackmouth curs are considered cousins of the catahoulas while blue lacys were created with greyhound/coyote/whatchamacallit crosses by the Lacy brothers who donated the pink granite that graces the Austin capitol in Texas today.

    Now the cowdog people who use them on cows carry bb guns with when in training because they get tunnel vision and won't call out. Electronic collars DON'T work! They will just make the dog more afraid of the animal you're trying to teach them not to get at. Only use those on dogs that try to hunt deer or cows(for diehard hog hunters only). What you do is wait and not say anything and stay outta sight and let the dog try to catch the pig and press the e collar and let her THINK it's the hog that causing it. But be forewarned once you get her to avoid pigs..she will NOT help you anymore. They're not stupid dogs. Back to the bb guns. What they do is shoot the dog on the butt if the dog won't stop crowding the cows or call out. You have to be a crack shot to be able to do that. There are too many people thinking that's cruel when it's not. They're just too hard headed for you to get off the horse to stop the dog...chances are she will bite you if you did that, lol.

    Check out the website and be polite and explain that you're a first time owner of a catahoula and that you need help and advice. Too many beginners are not aware and get chewed out by catahoula people but really sometimes they just never had a catahoula before and aren't aware of their behavior. Too many people like them for the wrong reasons: pretty glass blue eyes and the spots...they come in solid colors too!

    Ted
     
  11. Tango

    Tango Well-Known Member

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    There is no way that I'm going to beat the hell out of her or put her down. Are you serious? If she can't work with pigs anymore, she'll remain my companion. there's no reason to put her down.
     
  12. moopups

    moopups In Remembrance

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    Some times it is necessary for the dog to believe you are going to 'beat it to death'; this is what works, speak dog to dogs. This is what works, they are beings of lessor inteligence, you must communicate with them on thier level of understanding. This might include putting the dog on the ground, sitting on it, slapping it repeatly until it it removes its front paws from the throat protective area, this means they are submitting to you being the boss, then you can creat a good dog whom will listen to you. This might appear cruel but it is necessary for this dog to obey you, you must become the 'alpha dog in its life' for this example to work. If you give the dog slack it will take it to kill pigs, period. If you cannot do this, find a new home for the dog; it will never be satisfactory otherwise.
     
  13. She will be your pig killing worthless companion if she doesn't learn who is boss. You will be doing her a favor. Sounds like you should get a cat instead. Dogs are not humans and you can't treat them like humans. Someone is going to be the boss, you have to decide if it is the dog or you.
    Mike
     
  14. kathy H

    kathy H kathyh

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    Every animal species has there own way of talking and most of it is by body language. I myself dont belive in beating a animal either. When my horse gets to full of her self a few yanks on her lead rope works, but there are some animals that only will listen by man handling[ seen it in some horses]. I myself will yell when the dogs make me mad! five minutes of yelling followed by cold shoulder gets there attention, although there are a few out there who need a stronger hand just not my style.
     
  15. Tango

    Tango Well-Known Member

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    Ted, I responded to this yesterday but don't see my reply on the board. Thanks for the links. I was familiar with them, having read alot about this breed, but I didn't consider posting to that forum. I did last night.
     
  16. TXlightningbug

    TXlightningbug Well-Known Member

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    I had an animal that, when young, decided he was the alpha and I was beta. After a couple of unwanted fist fights where I ended up looking like I danced with a live buzz saw, I did some research. This is what I learned and what I did.
    When the next challenge was issued to my being alpha, I pinned the animal down and literally took that animal's throat in my mouth and clamped down just enough to make him know that I meant business. He submitted. I let go of him. He tried me and ended up on his back with my teeth in his throat again. After he submitted, I kept him there anyway for an extra minute or two just to let him know that I wasn't going to be suckered. Spit hair for a week, but never had another problem with who was boss after that. He didn't get hurt except for his ego and I won all around.
    Give it a try. Use praise for good work. Bellow for bad behavior and go for the throat if you think the dog needs to remember who's the alpha dog. Work him with older hogs then work back down to the younger ones after he's gotten faced down a couple of times by the older ones. Then work back up to the older ones again. It's an every day event.
    Good luck, Judi P.S. Don't forget the muzzle.
     
  17. TXlightningbug

    TXlightningbug Well-Known Member

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    Friend of mine found a catahoula pup running loose in her neighborhood with a collar too tight on him. She didn't know what kind of dog he was and adopted him, thinking he was full grown at 30#. :haha: Anyway, she named him Blue and took him to obediance class because she's only 5'-2" and Blue was tossing her around like a rag doll.
    Trainer told her that the choke collar and the pincher collar were the wrong ones for Blue. There is now a collar that has a loop that goes across the nose. Every time Blue started to do what he wanted to do instead of what he was told, all my friend had to do was pull on the leash and the loop pulled his nose down to his chest. He went where she wanted him to go. He's a rambunctious rascal off the collar, but when it goes on him, he's all business - quiet, attentive and obediant. Thought you'd like to see if you could lay your hands on one of these collars. She bought hers at Petsmart and they have a website www.petsmart.com if you don't have one in your area. You can order it from them if need be. Hope this helps. Judi :yeeha:
     
  18. Tango

    Tango Well-Known Member

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    My girl has learned to leave the pigs alone. I did it with a BB gun- took three shots to her rear. She doesn't go near the pen anymore. I won't be using her on pigs from now on. She is too rough.
     
  19. That's what they're bred for...once she gets on a wild hog she will learn to back up and bay...they fight back compared to domestic pigs.

    Ted