Sudden death!!!!?????

Discussion in 'Goats' started by Milk n' Honey, Sep 11, 2006.

  1. Milk n' Honey

    Milk n' Honey Well-Known Member

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    Good grief!! When it rains, it pours. Two days ago, a doeling, about 5 months old, was acting a little slower than usual. Yesterday evening, I noticed that she didn't get up during the feeding frenzy. I went over to find her lazy and in a stoned-like state. She wouldn't get up. I noticed no other symptoms. So, I gave her a Bo/Se shot, a Vitamin B shot, some dewormer and some plain yogurt. This morning, at 8:30am, I noticed she was laying in the pasture and was gone. I have no idea what was wrong with her but it took her fast with not many symptoms. Could this have been pasteurella? I've heard it is a silent killer. I bought her from a breeder with a small herd. This breeder keeps an emmaculate barn and pasture and seemed an OK place to purchase. I know the people too. This is the only goat we purchase from him. She was a purebred doeling. What a bummer.
     
  2. Patty0315

    Patty0315 Well-Known Member

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    Please don't take my comments as anything else but wanting to help. For the last few weeks i have read post after post about the problems you are having. It shows lack of knowledge. Yes this is a place to come for help , but you are having way to many problems. You need to contact your local Cornell and see if they have someone who can come out and help you. If that does not work try 4H groups. Maybe if you post your location someone here may be close enough to stop by. You need to send the goat out to see why it died. You need to look at your feed , minerals , parasite control and over all management. If not you will continue to loose animals money and enegy. Please continue to ask for help here but you also need someone who can come out to your place and help.

    Patty
     

  3. fishhead

    fishhead Well-Known Member Supporter

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    M n H',

    Sorry to hear about your loss.

    Was this one of the goats with the cough?

    I've got mine on penicillin now and he seems to be fine although at the start of the evening browse he rattled a bit, then it quit.
     
  4. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    sorry about your loss. it is very hard to tell what happend. another silent killer could also be enerotoxemia. was she vaccinated?
     
  5. Milk n' Honey

    Milk n' Honey Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your suggestion. I have never heard of Cornell. I'll see if I can find something on it. I must admit, you do sound a bit annoyed at me for posting with so many problems. Believe me, I don't enjoy this but I don't know what I could have done to prevent this goat from dying. I was just wondering what there is that could take a goat down that fast. More than a lack of knowledge, I believe this is due to the fact that our purchasing practices haven't been great. We bought way too many goats when we didn't know what we were doing. We combined goats from all over, from different farms and I'm sure that can create problems. We learned a lot and fast b/c we had to. If I had it to do over, I would have started with less goats and grown my herd from that. However, hindsight being what it is, it doesn't matter now. We just have to try and get through this. I don't know anyone who would come out here and help us. Nobody has time to help and I can't afford $35 for every visit the vet makes plus charges for whatever she does and prescribes while she is here. That is why I come here, so I can get help and try to do it myself. To my knowledge, our feeding practices are fine. We have mineral to all the goats. We purchase Kent's pelletized feed and feed a high quality alfalfa hay plus there is lots of browse, although they are all in a small paddock right now for the treatment of pinkeye. I know I've posted on here a lot. Your message does make me feel a bit obnoxious. I try to post on here to help others, as well, so I am not just bugging everyone to death. I have also been calling my vet for just about everything but I usually post a message on here too b/c to tell you the truth, I feel more confident asking for help on here where people have been raising goats for years. They have more experience and knowledge than any one vet that I could find around here. So, I'll just keep posting and learning. I might be having a lot of problems but I'm not giving up. People are helping us on here, a lot. If anyone has any suggestions about this poor goat's death, I'd be happy to hear it. I disposed of the goat. I had to work today and did not have time to take her anywhere. I certainly didn't want to leave her in with the rest of the herd, obviously. Again, our purchasing history explains a lot. If we've learned anything, it would be to buy animals only from knowledgeable breeders who care about the health of their animals. A good number of our animals came from a sale, which BTW, are the hardiest animals on the place and are very resistant to this pinkeye. Every goat that has been seriously affected by it, are ones we paid a lot of money for and came from small farms, breeders or 4-H families. We also own some top notch show animals which is obviously a worry during times like these. We have a variety of goats. The worst thing about sale animals is, even though they may be healthy, they may carry in something from the sale facility and we don't know their history. That being said, some of my favorite goats came from a sale. I'll try to post some pictures when I get time (TIME? What that?). Actually, the biggest problem we've had is that we purchased this last bunch from a man who, though quite nice and honest, purchasing animals from wherever and whenever. He had this small herd that he was getting rid of and we bought them. None of them came from a sale barn either. They all came from farms. We didn't quarantine b/c all looked healthy to us and we knew the guy. BIG mistake. That is when all this broke loose. I kinda doubt that this goat's death had anything to do with it though. This goat went down fast and was just gone. It was really strange. We use probiotics, have a medicine cabinet full of supplements and medicines. We make sure they all have clean water, hay, minerals all the time. We deworm when they need it. I was mostly curious about the pasteurella b/c I know there is a vaccine and I was considering using it. I know a breeder who says she was losing a lot of kids to pasteurella pneumonia and she started using it and it cut way down on her problems. Ya know, sometimes, people just have terrible luck. One kid died of naval ill b/c I suppose the breeder didn't iodine the naval. I always do that. One doe died of Listeriosis (brain infection). That could be from mold in the hay but she could have had it when we purchased her. We still have her sister. That is a freakish disease and not super common, I guess. This one, who knows what she died of but there wasn't much warning and I don't like to jump to giving antibiotics unless I feel it is necessary. I treated her as I said and was going to check on her this morning. If she wasn't any better, I was going to check her temp. and treat further. I believe once we get past this, and we adjust our purchasing habits, this will all get better. Until then, I just need help through it. I'm sorry if I am annoying. Like I said, I'd rather be posting about my successful breeding season starting instead of being behind due to illness. I'm sure my buck didn't stand a chance against the pinkeye after having been lame with hoof scald. His immunity was down. I'll admit that the hoof scald outbreak was mostly our fault b/c we didn't understand the proper way to trim hooves. Most books and people don't explain the most important parts about it. Sorry for the long post but I felt I must explain our practices a little. It may seem pretty bad to everyone else but it also sounds like other people have gone through similiar things. I appreciate everyone who has helped us. We are becoming more and more knowledgeable b/c of all of you and hopefully, we'll be more able to help other people getting into goats in the future.
     
  6. Milk n' Honey

    Milk n' Honey Well-Known Member

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    fishhead - No, that is the weird thing. No other symptoms at all...just laziness...general weakness. You know when a goat doesn't get up to eat with the rest of them, something is WRONG!! Maybe I should have gone ahead and used some antibiotic last night but it might not have helped anyway. I just feel that I am using a lot of it, with the pinkeye and all. I hate using it too much. I know it isn't good for them and shouldn't be used unless necessary. Thanks for your concern.

    susanne - Yes, the breeder gave her a shot of CD/T and we gave her a booster here and were getting ready to give another one. I don't know if they were too far apart...maybe we should have started the series over?? I don't think just one shot is sufficient for a kid. Our vet recommends a CD/T at 1 wk, 1 month and 2 months. Ya know, sometimes you can look at a goat that is in that kind of shape and it could one of 20 different things. What do you do in that situation? Did I not do something I should have? She wasn't snotty and coughing and didn't seem to have labored breathing. It was just so weird. She also didn't have diarhhea b/c I looked at her fur around her rear and under her tail. She was passing berries still. Maybe she had worms but I wouldn't expect them to take her down that fast?? I am asking for opinions just to make sure that I didn't make some mistake. Sometimes, when you read what people post, you realize something you might have done different. None of us are perfect or without problems or accidents and everyone can stand to learn more each day!! Thanks for your concern. I appreciate it. It is heartbreaking to lose animals. My husband really liked this girl. He would always say, "That is one pretty goat." Now he's not happy. It is quite sad. You know, we spend a lot of time with our goats. We try out best. We are doing what we can to make this a successful goat ranch. Getting started is tough.
     
  7. murphyjamie

    murphyjamie Well-Known Member

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    I didn't want to post this at first for fear that if I ----ed off someone that they may not help me with my needs in the future. However, I am also new at raising goats. I also lost my five year old sons wether, who also was the first goat we purchased. Let me start by saying that our goats are not livestock, they are part of the family. I know how helpless it feels to have problems and not know how to fix them. This site has been a lifesaver. If I called the vet every time I was in a panic over something I wasn't sure about it would have cost me a fortune. Thank God there are good christian people here who remember what it was like to be just starting out and nervous. Alot of the info we need can be found on different websites, but it is always more reassuring to here it from experienced people like yourselves. That being said, it is really unfortunate to make someone feel like they are at fault for losing and animal. I hope your luck starts to turn around soon.
    Jamie
     
  8. lacesout

    lacesout Well-Known Member

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    Hi M n' H,

    You needed to have the goat posted. You can't be penny-wise-and-pound foolish - in other words, spend a lot of money on goats and then feel you do not have money for vet care. It sounds like you take really good care of your animals ... but it may be time to pull in someone who can do a necropsy if the animal is dead - or do tests if the animal is alive and going down hill.

    Good luck to you,

    Lynn in Mesa County, CO
     
  9. Caprice Acres

    Caprice Acres AKA "mygoat" Staff Member Supporter

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    Sounds like you did all you could to me, as well. Unless you've dealt with one of the 'silent killers' before or often, I doubt you could have done anything about it, even with vet care. And just because you post often does not mean you are irresponsible in any way or annoying, just a concerned goat owner.
     
  10. Milk n' Honey

    Milk n' Honey Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I beat myself up over every loss, thinking I wish I could've done something to prevent it. I believe the only thing I should've done was not wait till morning to take the goat's temp. I wouldn't have know whether or not to give antibiotics. However, given the fact that the goat didn't make it through the night and probably not much more that a couple of hours longer, I doubt antibiotics would have mattered either. Also, with the goats, I tend to spend more on the more expensive ones, knowing that their offspring will bring in more money also. That is a tough way to look at it. Believe me, I am compassionate and I love my goats. However, if I didn't use some judgement on when to use a vet and when not to and how much to spend on each animal, I'd be bankrupt. I wish I could have taken the goat to the vet but I was late getting my daughter to school and getting to work...my huband was at work so no help for me. The goat wouldn't fit in the fridge. I doubt it would've been good for autopsy after sitting out for possibly 12 hours. lacesout - you are right though...it would have been a great idea to get that done. It sure was Monday, I'll tell you that. Nothing and I mean, nothing, went right. Hey, the good news is...my doe with what I thought had a retained placenta, is doing OK. I think we'd know by now. She's still eating and seems fine. The pinkeye goats are all healing. One is regaining eyesight and the ulcers are gone on the pregnant one. Things are looking up. The more I think about it, the less I believe it is Chlamydia. If I have another doe abort, I'll have the placenta or fetuses checked for it. We have healthy hooves now. I just don't post many positive things in the midst of the problems!! Over half of the herd is fine. It could always be worse. Once this is over, they'll all be immune to this strain of pinkeye so that is great news. Vicki reassured me that they won't be carriers b/c even Chlamydia is curable. I knew it was in people so why not animals right? Thanks again for your concern and suggestions. I always get better and better with each thread I post and believe me I scour the other thread too...the ones I didn't start. I just want to learn everything I can but you still have to put it all into practice and make it a routine before it sticks. Thanks again folks. God bless.
     
  11. lacesout

    lacesout Well-Known Member

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    Don't beat yourself up over a loss. BUT having a post done on a dead animal when you do not know what happened could potentally save you a fortune in the long run. Even if the animal had no value, whatever it was carrying could be affecting your herd - or you may be releived to find out it was some anomoly unique to that animal so you can just move on. Not knowing what you are up against is the worst situation, IMO.

    Lynn
    Mesa County, CO
     
  12. Goatsandsheep

    Goatsandsheep Well-Known Member Supporter

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    sounds like polio to me.
     
  13. valhalladad

    valhalladad Active Member

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    I am going to add my two cents. It does sound like you are trying, but I think you should back up and do a little checking. I am quite sure you probably have CAEV. This does kill kids at about 5 month of age. I have only personnally seen it a couple of time, but it is well documented. In fact this was the first thing that brought CAE into the limelight. I don't know where you are, but here in NE PA where I live several years ago we introduce CAE testing for our fair after the 4H judge commented about it. Over 80% of the animals that were tested were positive. A good estimate for sale barn animals is probably 90+. If you bring positive animals into your herd after six month you well have a positive herd. At the outside you might make a year. The only way to tell if you have CAE is with a blood test. I would never buy an animal that wasn't tested. After buying an animal I had it tested. I told the buyer that I was going to test the animal and would bring it back if it failed. The animal was isolated at least 30 days and until the test results came back. It took me three years to get rid of CAE in my herd though the cull process. Look for a good book. I like Goat Medicine by DR. Mary Smith. It is expensive, but you need something. Wasting money on good goats until you know what you have is a total waste of money. I have been there and done that and it is cost effective. Good luck, it looks like you need it.
     
  14. TexCountryWoman

    TexCountryWoman Gig'em

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    Milk n' Honey, first of all, I am glad to see where you said that you were not going to give up! You sound like you are an incredibly intelligent person and that you are willing to post your problems openly in hopes of learning more. It is so true that many folks only post there problems and misfortunes thereby leading others to believe that that is all that is going on on the farm. But as you said, you are having great success in areas that you have not been posting about. The pinkeye is under control and the abortion issue may very well be resolved. You don't draw attention to the everyday normal going ons that are not postworthy.

    I feel like anyone who even posts on a goat forum is going in the right direction anyway. I think of all the poor animals, of any species, that could benefit greatly if their masters had the inclination to join an internet community and try to solve their animals' problems. I think of all the mistakes I have made in the past from ignorance and all I have learned from people who most likely made the same mistakes i made when they themselves were ignorant. That is what this forum is all about.

    Personally, I think you are on your way to becoming a great teacher yourself as you have a love of knowledge.
     
  15. Blue Oak Ranch

    Blue Oak Ranch Well-Known Member

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    Any time you take on that many goats in that short a time from many different herds...you're bound to have problems. Sorry yours are so extensive! Most people here have learned through trial and error too. We've all been there.

    What I've learned in goats (and livestock in general):

    1. If they're "off" or don't want to eat, something is very wrong - they're sick.

    2. The more you have, the more on top of things you have to be. Treat every case immediately.

    3. Never take a "wait and see" approach if you work another job or otherwise have a super busy schedule. You can't check every single goat every day in a big herd, and if you only check once in the morning doing chores then the beginnings of a problem can go unnoticed. It can then blossom into a huge problem.

    4. Clean, clean, clean. Clean water they can't foul, hay or pellets up off the ground where hooves can't get in it. Use waste-free feeders so the goats aren't tempted to eat off the ground.

    5. Always, ALWAYS quarantine new animals or those returning to your herd. No exceptions. Don't use this quarantine pen for an animal in your herd having and "off" day - you don't know how long some of those diseases can stay in the soil. There are people I count as friends that I won't let near my pens, let alone buy from without quarantine.

    The goats you don't have health records on - sale barn animals - may have already been exposed to the diseases and have some immunity now. Thing is, they can also serve as a reserve of infection.

    Goats that die suddenly - enterotoxemia, e-coli, and listeriosis. These things are everywhere in the environment, waiting for the right set of conditions to bloom. Even if you buy from a reputable herd, if you put that goat in with ones you're not sure of, that goat can get sick. Stress alone can make a goat susceptible. Yes, Pasteurella, but most of what I've seen involve respiratory symptoms which spread slowly but inexorably through a herd. I will vaccinate all babies for this now, because I had this go through the herd last year.

    Patty's suggestion is a good one - is there an experienced goat raiser near you that can come out and give you some tips or suggestions? If you explain to your vet you need some time for management issues, he can come out for that. He may have suggestions that would improve your management, or just what to look for to stave off problems.

    The good news is that if you get past this, then you'll do much better! Keep going on the feed-through crumbles, but be careful about overdoing - the sudden death can be from getting too much grain at once.

    Cheers!

    Katherine
     
  16. pourfolkes

    pourfolkes Well-Known Member

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    Milk n Honey, I know just exactly how you feel. Where I live, the vets focus mostly on cats, dogs, cattle, etc. There is no vet here that is really knowledgeable about goats. I lost my favorite little buck 3 weeks ago. Alot of the same symptoms you were talking about. Turned out that even though I was worming every month (I am in Mississippi), he had hookworms which then allowed coccy to set in. The vet told me to give him 5cc of Cydectin and his Albon. I came home and medicated him and 30 min later, he died in my arms. I was just beside myself, cried all day. Come to find out, the dose he gave me on the Cydectin was WAY too much for his weight! In fact, Vicky from this forum told me that the dose he suggested probably helped him right along to his death. Another thing I have run into is that alot of local breeders here are not real open with sharing their knowledge.. I don't know why, I mean, if we can't help others than what are we good for? So, that is why I come here..... because I know there are caring people here. Other than that, I am really on my own, so I can understand where you are coming from. So, yes the loss of my goats was from lack of knowledge but not for lack of trying to obtain the knowledge locally and then being given the wrong information. I am sure there are alot of places that have really good vets for goats, but there are alot of places that do not and so those of us who have no local vet to go to have to come here to glean whatever information we can get. I think that when we read these posts, we all need to keep that in mind and understand that sometimes, this forum and internet research are all we have to go by as there is no one locally who has a clue what is what with goats.... lol I am sorry for your loss. I can also tell you that the goat 911 people listed at the top of this forum are awesome people. I have had to call them several times and they are really knowledgeable and helpful.
     
  17. goatkid

    goatkid Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When I have young goats that are lethargic and off feed, I give them shots of thiamin and either Biomycin or Nuflor. I also give Probios and sodium bicarb. Since I started doing this, they have all pulled through. These are the things my vet supports me in doing.
     
  18. AllWolf

    AllWolf We love all our animals

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    Sorry to hear of your loss on your little doe. I'm not going to get on the soapbox to much but first off you needed to start out with a very few goats and know what your getting into because goats are fun to have they need to be treated as soon as they get sick or showing signs of getting sick because you can not delay it or it can cost the goats it life. Next if you have a vet that only knows about cats, dogs, cattle and horse then they do not give a HOOT about goats. They may know how to do a fecal or give a shot but when it comes to being really down right knowing you need a vet that knows everything about goats not just a guess on them. If you need help on finding a VET that knows everything about goats look into Department of Agriculture in your state and they may can tell you who will be a great VET to help with goats. You should never ever buy goats from all over because one farm may have very healthy goats when the next farm may have what to be healthy goats but have underlying problems. When you go mixing goats from different places your going to run into all kinds of problems and plus it maybe a disease that will spread to all you herd and kill them. I'm not saying this to make you upset but you need to hear this. I have known of people going to a goat market buying goats and come home and a few days or week later the goat is very sick or dies. I will never buy goats from a goat market. I will buy my goats from a clean herd and know what their records are to before purchasing a goat.

    Oh I have read on Pinkeye you need to keep treating it because sometimes it can cause blindness in goats even death because when blind they can not find their food and etc..

    Last thing I'm going to say. Do not buy anymore goats unless you know their history of their health. Because buying goats from different farms is going to cause you tons of trouble. One farm can have goats that have CAE or CL and another farm may not have none of them problems. Oh snakebite can kill fast to because I lost one to snakebite before I knew it. There is a lot of things that can kill a goat without knowing it.

    Good Luck on the rest of the herd
     
  19. trob1

    trob1 Well-Known Member

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    Milknhoney'

    I made the same mistake of getting goats from all over when I started out and ended up with pinkeye, respitory, worms, coccidiosis, and soremouth in the herd. I got everyone through this all only to find out 2 out of the 3 nubians had g6s (did blood test before breeding) and yes one was positive and one was a carrier. I finally took a step back and sold all 8 of my goats to pet homes as non breeders. I waited a few months did a lot of soul searching and internet searching and found a great breeder with alot of experience and willing to sell me some goats. I have been much more fortunate with buying all my goats from one breeder. I had my first kidding season this past spring and summer. I got one doeling out of that breeding and kept her and will keep any does from the next breeding. That is how I plan to grow my herd. Yes it takes longer but the bond I have with the doe born here is unbelievable. I wish you the best and hope things get better. I have been where you are and know how frustrating it can be. Do take a step back and see what is the best to do for you and your herd to get everyone well. I wouldnt do anymore breeding or bringing in any more goats till everyone gets on the mend.
    Teresa
     
  20. Patty0315

    Patty0315 Well-Known Member

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    I truely meant my post to help you and the animals. If it sounded a bit to the point I am sorry. It was not meant to be nasty or to get ANYONE to stop posting.

    Cornell has school or extensions all over the place. At least in NY and New England they run the 4H programs. Check them out they usually have good people or can point you to them. You need to hook up with someone NOW before you loose anymore goats.

    Do not bring any more in and do not buy from auction. Everything that comes in needs to be seperated from the resident goats until tested neg for disease , wormed , and past 21 days.

    The dead need to be sent out to find out why. If not you will just loose more. If you had a good goat person near by they could maybe tell you. Money is tight every place but by finding out why this one died you may be able to save the rest of the herd.

    You need to have fecals done. You need them now to see what you are dealing with and again after you worm to see if your herd is resistant to the wormer you are using. You need to check your hay and grain for mold or toxins. You need to use the correct minerals and correct amounts of grain. If a few goats are eating it all that increases the chance of them getting sick but also increases the chances for disease in the ones without.

    You need at min to give CD/T and the boosters. I would vacc for everything I could if I was you . Make sure you are using seperate needles for each one. You do not want to cross with a mixed herd.

    Please ask here if there is anyone near you that can help. I am going to post some links to get you started. Read the pages , print them out , put them in a note book to reread and fall back on. Most local Vets are not much help so keep them handy.

    Patty