It all depends on location and family size, I think, hoggie. If you had the room and several children, a cow would be a much better choice than a goat for milk due to quantity, for example.

I've actually been thinking of this quite a lot lately. Now that the children are virtually all on their own (just one more at home and ready to take flight), I reckon if we had the following, we could nearly be self-sufficient:

*A Shetland ewe for fiber and baby-making ability, small and relatively quiet
*A Saanen or Alpine doe for milk and baby-making ability (I prefer those two breeds) or a reasonable facsimile
*A wether, preferably Shetland or other fiber sheep for fiber and for company for the ladies
*(Borrow a male of either species at proper time for baby-making)
*(male offspring raised for freezer or barter)
*Dozen or so chickens for eggs, replacement chicks and meat as well as bug control
*Half dozen to dozen ducks, same use as chickens
*Rabbits optional
*Substantial garden of vegetables to preserve/can/eat fresh
*Plot of grain (oats would be nice but more practically, wheat) for breads
*Fruit assortment (including trees) to preserve/can/eat fresh
*Medicinal herb beds, self-explanatory
*Flowers to lift the spirits

Now, all this I could do on our 2/3 acre. Once (hopefully) the town decides to lift the moratorium on having animals inside city limits, I plan to start implementing the plan. It'll take a while, but well worth the effort.

~Falcon

 

In the old days....

Well, I've known a lot of old-timers in my life. I've always liked to listen to the old stories of how things were done. Of course, the old days may not be so long ago for many where I live, since we didn't get electricity until the 1950's and we didn't get a paved road until the 1960's.

Typically, most folks down here would have a few hogs, some chickens, and a milk cow. The milk cow would be bred, and any bull calves were cut and used for beeves. Everybody had a substantial garden, and most people raised all of their own feed and hay. Everyone had a few fruit trees of one kind or another, figs and pears being quite popular down here.

Folks went to town maybe twice a year, but purchases for "essentials" - flour, coffee, salt, sugar - were made at a local country store.

 

It does depend greatly upon your area and your family.

Look to the 19th century to see what was needed to keep a family alive,nothing has changed much regarding people in that time,well except for their seeming inability to do without...

Rabbits while easy to keep are also easy to catch in the wild,if the Channel Islands are anything like the rest of the UK you should have a LOT of wild rabbits.

 

OOOOHhh Yeeeeees - we have rabbits LOL. I am considering keeping domesticated ones as well but am still thinking it through.

I have a book written in 1820 called "cottage economy" and it is amazing howmany of the same questions were being raised then.

The book was written to help the "labouring classes" augment their living by growing their own food. He talks at some length how all girls should be taught to make bread and what a difference this makes to the economy of a household. Thinks it is more important to be able to brew beer than tea as beer has a food value where tea doesn't. Talks at some length about keeping different kinds of animal. Gives instructions on building an ice house. Making yeast cakes. The list goes on - but what I find interesting is that, even in 1821, they needed a book to teach them these things.

It is surprising that even at that point people (even labourers) were buying in large amounts of their produce.

I will have to get out the history books to see what was done here in the CI.

I suppose we should consider ourselves priviledged to have a head start on some of this stuff. I grew up with a large veg garden and chickens and ducks and horses. I know people that have never grown a houseplant.

hoggie

 

OK - warning - I am not sure where my thoughts are going on this one so it may be a bit disjointed

I have been thinking a lot recently about which direction to expand my operations. I am trying to figure out what is the most usesful animals/crops to manage for the highest degree of self-sufficiency.

So what did the real small one-family farms do? What did cottagers grow and rear?

There seems to be a lot of pork and bean type recipes out there which makes me wonder if they were considered essentials. Even here in the islands the "real" local dish is called a bean crock and consists of pork feet, shin of beef and lots and lots of beans.

Are the vegetables in which the crop that you harvest is also next years seeds (think potatoes, shallots, beans) "safer" than those crops which need a second year to seed like onions, root veg etc.

Versatility and hardiness must play a huge part in this. Obviously the answers vary from region to region but I was wondering if there was a theme that ran through the same for everyone. How did cows become "the" dairy animal? Kill a grown steer and you have far too much meat to use - I suppose you can trade some but families out in the middle of nowhere wouldn't have had that luxury so why cows and not goats?

Sheep - why don't more people keep sheep? Wool, sheepskins, AND meat how come they aren't every smallholder's animal?

I am rambling a bit I know (I think I got too much swimming pool water in my ears ) but i keep coming back to these questions. Not so much looking for answer/solutions as trying to open up a general discussion

hoggie

these are very good questions. I am at the stage in my operation, and life, that I am asking, and thinking about the same things.

My plan is a dozen brood sows, a dozen brood beef cows, a dozen milk cows,a couple dozen heavy bodied egg laying chickens and make maple syrup. O want to graze all the animals as much as possible to reduce feed harvesting costs, and feed pirchasing costs. I plan on eventually not buying any feed at all, but producing it all on my land

 

Used to be that folks could keep a cow or two or three and sell milk and butter to the folks in the nearby small town. Try doing that now and see how much trouble you can get into! Bull calves could be cut and used for meat or trained to pull a plow and cart.

As for beans, most folks that were not wealthy have always eaten more beans than meat. Doesn't matter where in the world they lived, as long as they were able to grow something they could usually grow some kind of legume.

 

beans keep well and last a long time and lots of ways you can fix them.
I prefer goats as they eat anything if things got bad i dont have to feed them properly they are good foragers. Goats can provide milk and meat.
chickens are tough and resilient to let them loose and they forage for themselves pretty well.
They also provide meat and eggs.
Asparagus fruit trees, nut trees, berry bushes all are permanent agriculture so I pant lots of apples, pears, almonds, hazel nuts, elderberrys, and more I am working toward permaculture and edible forest gardening. Alot of the plants take little care and provide me with food every year.

 

How did cows become "the" dairy animal?

Probably by doing double duty as a draft animal.

Lynda

 

I once read a theory that Celtic pioneers tended to raise livestock that didn't need much tending, while Germanic pioneers were busy bees and had more labor intensive livestock. I would like to thank my Celtic ancestors for inventing the porch and rocker (LOL).

 

Generally, you get more nutrients and calories per acre by eating plant material than by feeding the plant to animals and then eating the meat. So I would say that if you want to survive on the produce of small acreage, grow legumes, grains, fruits and vegetables.

 

Yep - I have a huge amount of elder trees planted around my boundary - they are one of the few trees that will grow here due to the winds - and once they get a little taller I will be planting an orchard. Apart from the wind, fruit grows well here!! I also have hazel planted but I have no idea how long it will be before I see any nuts - I know of quite a few hazel trees locally but I don't know of ANY that produce nuts

My veg garden is a fair size and I have a space put aside for artichokes (nobody's favourite but they would see you through a rough winter if nothing else did). Soft fruit I am hoping to get planted this Autumnn - money and weather permitting.

I am not sure about relying on veg to live - although I know that meat is not essential, I would much rather have it if possible. Added to which - animals like goats can make use of land which would not support crops satisfactorily.

I am quite taken by the idea of a few sheep to add to the mix. I think I might have to start frequenting the sheep forum to find out a bit more about it - it seems to me that wool is the only material that a smallholder can provide for themselves? Although I did have a notion about trying to grow flax for linen

How small an area of any grain crop is viable?

hoggie

 

I once read a theory that Celtic pioneers tended to raise livestock that didn't need much tending, while Germanic pioneers were busy bees and had more labor intensive livestock. I would like to thank my Celtic ancestors for inventing the porch and rocker (LOL).

Oh, that's why I am so conflicted - I am about half and half!!!

Don't know whether to rock or work.

So I usually rock and think about working.

When I was a kid, I had this favorite aunt who thought her children should have fresh milk. She lived in a, really a small town, but they took exception to her having a milk cow in her back yard. That problem went back and forth for at least 10 years. The city didn't win, but they eventually moved to the country - and she kept her cow.

 

I think back when, that ducks were the first animal that people used semidomesticated. You could have a couple of chickens or ducks even in town. An egg is the perfect food, so if you had a source of fresh eggs, you only needed to think about fruits and vegetables. A bull calf was often killed before his mother could lick him off (so she wouldn't become attached to him). A bull calf was considered a waste, and a farmer did not want to share the milk with him. Even if you let a bull calf nurse, he could still be butchered at the end of the summer when he was weaned and still relatively small.

In days gone by, I think those that ate a lot of meat were those that hunted. And, let's not forget fishing. Anyone who lived near a river or pond or lake depended on fish and eels as a source of food. Also, wild growing root vegetables, like cattails, and wild growing fruit.

 

Falcon dance - you seem to have your plan well thought out. That's the stage I want to get to - just being sure of my plan. I am a fair way down the self-sufficiency road but have never really had a plan - just that one day I want to be self sufficient. I was very nearly self sufficient before my daughter was born with a huge veg garden, breeding pigs for the table and a milking goat, and chickens and ducks. Being on my own that was fine for me.

Now I have not such a big veg garden (but I am taking a bit more back in each year) I buy weaners to raise for pork, still have chickens and ducks and have two young goats who hopefully next year will provide us with some milk.

I have thought about a cow but am just not sure. Think that may be something for waaay in the future LOL

Am seriously looking at sheep as maybe the next project. Have never kept sheep. This could get exciting!!

Looks like beans might be one of the keys (sigh - really doesn't like dried beans). They do grow well here and this year I intend to plant field beans for feeding the animals (one less thing to buy in hopefully).

I can always remember reading "The Children of the New Forest" over and over as a kid - I think it was one of the things that tuned me n to self-sufficiency - and one of the things that struck me was that even then (it was set in the 17th century - they still had to go to the town for flour and things. Took venison or chickens to sell and bought whatever it was they needed back with them.

I sort of have a vague feeling that maybe it was different in the US just because of the distances involved - people would have had to produce EVERYTHING maybe if they couldn't get to a town?

Head whizzing in circles at the moment and am finding it dificult to do anything constructive . Just have to let the thoughts come I guess.

hoggie

 

Growing up, dirt poor, in the southern US, we always had a big garden, pigs and chickens. Got most of our milk from an uncle who had milk cows. I remember that we almost never ate beef, it was a real rarity. Beeves were sold for the $.
Only bought essentials; sugar, salt, flour, etc. Corn meal and Grits were purchased at a local grist mill.
Like your idea of a few sheep to go with your goats. If, when, I get more land I hope to do basically what you are doing.
Good luck.

galump

 

One thing that I have noticed is, having only the animals that you need is wise.

4 hens will give you 1-2 dozen eggs a week, and a significant part of their diet can come from the table scraps. Yes, feed is needed, but those noodles that your child left on her plate can be scraped into their dish, so that they need less bought feed.

By way of contrast, if you have 25 hens you will get 10 dozen eggs a week, and either need to sell some of the eggs or feed them to a pig or something. Also, even if you scrape the plates into the feed dish no hen will get more than a mouthfull so virtually all of their feed will need to be bought.

 

Late 1800s:
My maternal grandparents started married life on "the family farm", inherited from grandpa's father. Small farm, upper end of a coulee (that's a sort of valley that only has one outlet).

there was a spring and plenty of trees. A few apple and pear trees. Fair sized garden for tomatoes, green beans, navy type beans, root veggies (LOTS of root veggies), squash, potatoes, onions, corn (which when picked young is sweet, left to dry is used for feed for cow)
*after canning was introduced they grew more beans/tomatoes/corn for canning.

Hunting was a BIG part of feeding the family. Turkeys, rabbits, geese, ducks, deer, bear.

LARGE root cellar. That's where everything that could be stored was stored.

Farm animals: 2 horses or mules; 1 milk cow(milk, butter, cheese); 1 calf (from the milk cow) (if the calf was female, she could be traded for lots of stuff from town); chickens..free range, with a coop..(fed corn and oats in winter); and hogs. as many hogs as they could breed.

the hogs tilled the garden in the fall (rooting around); they were fed all the scraps, the extra milk, eggs, whatever was around. The hogs gave the family meat but also money. didn't cost anything to raise during summer, butchered late fall; traded for flour, nails, material for clothes...

They rarely went to town. Spent time with neighbors after church on Sunday...usually a day spent talking, bartering, praying, eating. (the women always brought what they could afford and put on a big meal early afternoon)

Lot of the building/plowing/harvesting was done with the help of neighbors. Everyone would show up 1 day at the Skoy farm, next day at Johnson's, next day at Olsen's....and so on.

 

As for grain, I once made a patch of grain that was only 3' by 4'.

When I made bread, I would put the water into the blender with the wheat berries and blend it until it was fine enough for cracked-wheat bread. Then I let it sit for some hours to allow the grain to soak up water and soften. I DID need to add more water when I made the bread, though!

I added bought flour, salt and yeast to make the bread.

 

One thing that I have noticed is, having only the animals that you need is wise.

4 hens will give you 1-2 dozen eggs a week, and a significant part of their diet can come from the table scraps. Yes, feed is needed, but those noodles that your child left on her plate can be scraped into their dish, so that they need less bought feed.

By way of contrast, if you have 25 hens you will get 10 dozen eggs a week, and either need to sell some of the eggs or feed them to a pig or something. Also, even if you scrape the plates into the feed dish no hen will get more than a mouthfull so virtually all of their feed will need to be bought.

my thought about having extra animals is the ability to trade the extra. Also in states with property taxes you will need to have something to sell to earn some cash to at least pay property taxes to keep your land.

 

Late 1800s:
My maternal grandparents started married life on "the family farm", inherited from grandpa's father. Small farm, upper end of a coulee (that's a sort of valley that only has one outlet).

there was a spring and plenty of trees. A few apple and pear trees. Fair sized garden for tomatoes, green beans, navy type beans, root veggies (LOTS of root veggies), squash, potatoes, onions, corn (which when picked young is sweet, left to dry is used for feed for cow)
*after canning was introduced they grew more beans/tomatoes/corn for canning.

Hunting was a BIG part of feeding the family. Turkeys, rabbits, geese, ducks, deer, bear.

LARGE root cellar. That's where everything that could be stored was stored.

Farm animals: 2 horses or mules; 1 milk cow(milk, butter, cheese); 1 calf (from the milk cow) (if the calf was female, she could be traded for lots of stuff from town); chickens..free range, with a coop..(fed corn and oats in winter); and hogs. as many hogs as they could breed.

the hogs tilled the garden in the fall (rooting around); they were fed all the scraps, the extra milk, eggs, whatever was around. The hogs gave the family meat but also money. didn't cost anything to raise during summer, butchered late fall; traded for flour, nails, material for clothes...

They rarely went to town. Spent time with neighbors after church on Sunday...usually a day spent talking, bartering, praying, eating. (the women always brought what they could afford and put on a big meal early afternoon)

Lot of the building/plowing/harvesting was done with the help of neighbors. Everyone would show up 1 day at the Skoy farm, next day at Johnson's, next day at Olsen's....and so on.

that sounds wonderfull!

I hope I can get to that point someday

 

As for grain, I once made a patch of grain that was only 3' by 4'.

When I made bread, I would put the water into the blender with the wheat berries and blend it until it was fine enough for cracked-wheat bread. Then I let it sit for some hours to allow the grain to soak up water and soften. I DID need to add more water when I made the bread, though!

I added bought flour, salt and yeast to make the bread.

Cant you make bread without adding bought flour?

 

The last post was long, but that's the way my grandparents and greatgrandparents lived.

Now...answers to some questions...

sheep: didn't keep sheep because they needed shearing (no time), skittish, and well...there are easier animals to keep.

Cow vs goat: cow gives more milk for a single animal and tends not to wander far. The milk was not just for drinking, but butter and very importantly: cheese. The whey was fed to the pigs. Drink buttermilk....It was just more econmical (for them) to keep a cow.
Beef: They didn't keep the bull calves for meat very often. They were traded for $$ or stuff. Meat was generally pork or wild game.

I know a few families that still live that way. Not Amish. Just haven't wanted to move into "modern" society. Most have a skill that they market: horseshoer; forgework; carpentry; butchering.

the kids...well, some stay. some don't.

Oh yah...I forgot about the spring house. Stone building around the spring. Cheese, milk, butter was stored in the spring house. (And apparently Grandpa could be found there on a hot summer day )

 

Oh yah...I forgot about the spring house. Stone building around the spring. Cheese, milk, butter was stored in the spring house. (And apparently Grandpa could be found there on a hot summer day )

My dad grew up on a dairy farm in the 50s. His family knew, and traded with the amish. Dad told me that people would build their dairy barn over a creek, and would cool their milk by storing it in cream cans, and sitting it in the creek.

I think that is an awsome idea!

 

Cant you make bread without adding bought flour?

Grind your grain, use it like store bought. different types of wheat(grain) need more or less liquid. 3'x4' wouldn't give you enough grain for a lot of bread tho,...more an experiment?

Can also make a sourdough starter. Real easy. Use it for bread, pancakes(waffles), biscuits. Once you start using sourdough starter, you don't need to add yeast...just a cup of flour and water once in a while.

 

There is a book about some Americans who went to live in Ireland that I vaguely recall...something like "White Goats and Black Bees"....they had Muscovy ducks and goats and bees and geese to weed the orchard...and little money for much else.

I have goats and raise meat from the milk...
Hulless oats are on my list of things to try to grow...

I think subsistence farming is going to make a Huge! comeback if the economy and taxes dont change direction.....those of us who have practice and knowledge will be far better off either way.