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Don't let "good enough" be the enemy of perfect.
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Statistics/information that I'd like to see:

1. The percent of folks who have received both covid vaccinations who, nevertheless, have subsequently been diagnosed with covid (either version).

2. The percent of folks who consistently wore masks who, nevertheless, have been diagnosed with covid (either version).

3. The amount of income that clinics and hospitals get from the government and insurance companies when a person is diagnosed as positive for covid vs the income they get when a person is diagnosed with the flu. Not the cost of medical care following diagnosis. I know that post diagnosis medical care varies all over the place. Just the diagnosis. Many who are diagnosed as being positive are simply sent home and never admitted to a hospital anyway.

4. We do know that diabetes and some other medical conditions make a person more likely to die from covid. I have seen some statistics on that. But is that also true of the flu?

Potential risk factors that have been identified to date include:
  • Age
  • Race/ethnicity
  • Gender
  • Some medical conditions (what medical conditions???????)
  • Use of certain medications
  • Poverty and crowding
  • Certain occupations (what occupations/?????)
  • Pregnancy
Link

I have no pre-conceived beliefs about any of this. I'd just like to see some statistics so I can figure out what I believe.
 

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Sock puppet reinstated
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Statistics/information that I'd like to see:

1. The percent of folks who have received both covid vaccinations who, nevertheless, have subsequently been diagnosed with covid (either version).

2. The percent of folks who consistently wore masks who, nevertheless, have been diagnosed with covid (either version).

3. The amount of income that clinics and hospitals get from the government and insurance companies when a person is diagnosed as positive for covid vs the income they get when a person is diagnosed with the flu. Not the cost of medical care following diagnosis. I know that post diagnosis medical care varies all over the place. Just the diagnosis. Many who are diagnosed as being positive are simply sent home and never admitted to a hospital anyway.

4. We do know that diabetes and some other medical conditions make a person more likely to die from covid. I have seen some statistics on that. But is that also true of the flu?



Link

I have no pre-conceived beliefs about any of this. I'd just like to see some statistics so I can figure out what I believe.
You don't get income for a diagnosis. You only get income for the tests performed.
 

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Inaddition to the ones listed, these are statistics I would like to see.

The actual number of people that died directly due to Covid. I believe some countries are overstating the death rate, and some are vastly understating it.

The number of people that have died from the vaccinations

The number of people that survived Covid, but have long term serious after effects. This number is more important to me than the number of people that die from it. I don't care if I get it and die, although I would like to avoid that. I care more if I will have long term issues due to Covid
 

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SM Entrepreneuraholic
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1) Here's the problem. What we are told about the vaccines is, on average, how good they supposedly are at preventing hospitalization or death. Let's use 90% as an average for all vaccines. So if you are fully vaccinated, your chance of having Covid-19 and being hospitalized and possibly dying is 1 in 10. Since that 90% is the average over all age groups, the older you are, the greater the likelihood. Same with if you have comorbidities. So if you are 85 and have hypertension and heart disease, being fully vaccinated doesn't give you the same level of protection as someone who is 40 and isn't vaccinated. We have all seen the charts, risk goes up as you get older.

When it comes to preventing Covid-19, the efficacy drops down to the 60's or 70's, plus at least some of the vaccines are not as effective on some variants. Both Israel and Britain are reporting close to 50% of new delta cases are in those fully vaccinated. They also pointed out those vaccinated tend to have less severe Covid-19 and that the Pfizer vaccine is not as effective against the delta variant.

So, my conclusion is it appears the vaccines still reduce your possibility of being hospitalized or dying from Covid-19. They also appear to reduce the severity of Covid-19 if you do get it. My guess is there is probably not a big difference in the probability of a healthy 40-year-old unvaccinated and a vaccinated 40-year-old person getting Covid-19, but the vaccinated person would probably have a less severe case which would also reduce the chance of hospitalization or death.
 

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STILL not Alice
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Two local people who got the jab died yesterday. In the hospital.

From the Wuflu.
 

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Inaddition to the ones listed, these are statistics I would like to see.

The actual number of people that died directly due to Covid. I believe some countries are overstating the death rate, and some are vastly understating it.

The number of people that have died from the vaccinations

The number of people that survived Covid, but have long term serious after effects. This number is more important to me than the number of people that die from it. I don't care if I get it and die, although I would like to avoid that. I care more if I will have long term issues due to Covid

I suspect that number is about the same as the percentage of people that have long term health issues from the flu. I've heard lots of people say they had the flu over the years who said they had issues for months after they recovered from the flu. Took my wife over 4 months to feel 'normal' after the flu a few years ago.
You don't get income for a diagnosis. You only get income for the tests performed.
 

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You don't get income for a diagnosis. You only get income for the tests performed.

But unlike the flu or anything else, government guarantees payment of medical treatment for COVID. That is a big difference. For example, if some poor person goes to the ER seeking treatment for something and has no insurance, all the hospital can do is hound him for money for a few months and finally write it off but with a COVID diagnosis also, they are sure to get paid. Add to that the fact that in many places no test is required. It is perfectly fine to 'presume' the person has COVID. Now ask yourself whether that might encourage a hospital to 'presume' a patient has COVID. You know the answer.
 

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thought this would be a good place for this - 50,000 deaths from the vaccine - know some one who might get the jab - please tell them to FORGET IT
 

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I suspect that number is about the same as the percentage of people that have long term health issues from the flu. I've heard lots of people say they had the flu over the years who said they had issues for months after they recovered from the flu. Took my wife over 4 months to feel 'normal' after the flu a few years ago.
The problem with "suspecting" it, is that it is based on nothing.
thought this would be a good place for this - 50,000 deaths from the vaccine - know some one who might get the jab - please tell them to FORGET IT
Where on earth did you get that number?
 

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Sock puppet reinstated
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But unlike the flu or anything else, government guarantees payment of medical treatment for COVID. That is a big difference. For example, if some poor person goes to the ER seeking treatment for something and has no insurance, all the hospital can do is hound him for money for a few months and finally write it off but with a COVID diagnosis also, they are sure to get paid. Add to that the fact that in many places no test is required. It is perfectly fine to 'presume' the person has COVID. Now ask yourself whether that might encourage a hospital to 'presume' a patient has COVID. You know the answer.
He made it clear he was talking about diagnosis, not treatment.
 

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SM Entrepreneuraholic
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Where on earth did you get that number?
There is supposedly a whistleblower. It remains to be seen if this report is true, but I have heard a report over a month ago from what I believe is a reliable source that the number of deaths from the vaccine is at least 4 times what is reported in the VAERS database. To me, that makes sense because I doubt if many people would voluntarily log a family member's death while they are still in mourning.
 

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Inaddition to the ones listed, these are statistics I would like to see.

The actual number of people that died directly due to Covid. I believe some countries are overstating the death rate, and some are vastly understating it.

The number of people that have died from the vaccinations

The number of people that survived Covid, but have long term serious after effects. This number is more important to me than the number of people that die from it. I don't care if I get it and die, although I would like to avoid that. I care more if I will have long term issues due to Covid
I believe most countries are counting surplus deaths as covid and I disagree with the practice because of the lack of tangible proof.

I would like to see greater transparency on the positives and negatives of the vaccines. I don't feel that people should have to take things like blood clots and heart inflammation to the media to have developers address them. The process is causing people to mistrust the information provided.
 

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There is supposedly a whistleblower. It remains to be seen if this report is true, but I have heard a report over a month ago from what I believe is a reliable source that the number of deaths from the vaccine is at least 4 times what is reported in the VAERS database. To me, that makes sense because I doubt if many people would voluntarily log a family member's death while they are still in mourning.
Firstly, as far as I know, there are no vaccine substantiated deaths on VAERS. There is the number of people that have died, that have also been vaccinated. From the site Precision Vaccinations.

"The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) confirmed on July 7, 2021, the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) had received 5,946 reports of death among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.

However, a review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines, says the CDC's website.

This CDC data indicates a vaccine fatality rate of about (0.0018%) since over 331 million vaccinations have been completed in the USA since December 2020.

The U.S. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after a COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem.

VAERS is co-sponsored by the CDC, and the FDA, agencies of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services."

Secondly, it isn't up to the family to send the report to VAERS, it is required that the provider does it, so it doesn't matter if many people would voluntarily log a family members death while they are in mourning.

What is actually known is that some people may or may not have died from the vaccine, and some unknown person may or may not have said that the death rate is 4 times the number we don't know, and that all of that somehow substantiates a person saying that the vaccines have killed 50,000 people. Maybe it's just me, but I'd like something more substantial.
 

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SM Entrepreneuraholic
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Firstly, as far as I know, there are no vaccine substantiated deaths on VAERS. There is the number of people that have died, that have also been vaccinated. From the site Precision Vaccinations.

"The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) confirmed on July 7, 2021, the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) had received 5,946 reports of death among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.

However, a review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines, says the CDC's website.

This CDC data indicates a vaccine fatality rate of about (0.0018%) since over 331 million vaccinations have been completed in the USA since December 2020.

The U.S. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after a COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem.

VAERS is co-sponsored by the CDC, and the FDA, agencies of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services."

Secondly, it isn't up to the family to send the report to VAERS, it is required that the provider does it, so it doesn't matter if many people would voluntarily log a family members death while they are in mourning.

What is actually known is that some people may or may not have died from the vaccine, and some unknown person may or may not have said that the death rate is 4 times the number we don't know, and that all of that somehow substantiates a person saying that the vaccines have killed 50,000 people. Maybe it's just me, but I'd like something more substantial.
That reads like a media fact-checker who got all their talking points from the government. While reporting may be required, it is completely voluntary. In this environment, are physicians reporting all suspected side effects and possible deaths related to the vaccines? With people getting vaccinated at clinics, how often is a primary care physician even involved? CDC supposedly is months behind in reporting. Other government agencies feed into the VAERS system and are understaffed and behind in reporting.

Your choice. Trust the government or do your research and search out sources you trust. I have mine.
 

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That reads like a media fact-checker who got all their talking points from the government. While reporting may be required, it is completely voluntary. In this environment, are physicians reporting all suspected side effects and possible deaths related to the vaccines? With people getting vaccinated at clinics, how often is a primary care physician even involved? CDC supposedly is months behind in reporting. Other government agencies feed into the VAERS system and are understaffed and behind in reporting.

Your choice. Trust the government or do your research and search out sources you trust. I have mine.
Where do you come up with this? You said took your number from VAERS, and when I pointed out where the site that you referenced gets those numbers, you, once again, accuse me of trusting the government and not doing research. We got the information from the same site, but I'm a government shill that believes everything I'm told, whereby you have "the knowledge". You meantime, got your number from a guy that took the same number from the same site and multiplied it by four, thereby making it somehow more accurate. You don't like the numbers from VAERS, so once again, where do you get numbers that you trust to decide that 50,000 people have died from the vaccines?
 

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SM Entrepreneuraholic
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Where do you come up with this? You said took your number from VAERS, and when I pointed out where the site that you referenced gets those numbers, you, once again, accuse me of trusting the government and not doing research. We got the information from the same site, but I'm a government shill that believes everything I'm told, whereby you have "the knowledge". You meantime, got your number from a guy that took the same number from the same site and multiplied it by four, thereby making it somehow more accurate. You don't like the numbers from VAERS, so once again, where do you get numbers that you trust to decide that 50,000 people have died from the vaccines?
You might want to check who said what. I don't believe I ever mentioned the number 50,000.

You don't know where I got my information from. As I said, I have sources I trust. One of them, who is a virus expert contracted to DOD, said his sources in the government said deaths caused by the vaccines are being under-reported and are at least 4 times what is reported in VAERS. I have previously posted the video where it was discussed.

I don't know if it is true or not, but the source is solid enough for me to question the governments numbers. Most of the numbers being thrown out on a daily basis by the government, just don't align with the facts.

You quoted Precision Vaccinations and I said it reads like a media fact checker that got all their talking points from the government and I say I nailed it. That is exactly what it was.
 

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You might want to check who said what. I don't believe I ever mentioned the number 50,000.

You don't know where I got my information from. As I said, I have sources I trust. One of them, who is a virus expert contracted to DOD, said his sources in the government said deaths caused by the vaccines are being under-reported and are at least 4 times what is reported in VAERS. I have previously posted the video where it was discussed.

I don't know if it is true or not, but the source is solid enough for me to question the governments numbers. Most of the numbers being thrown out on a daily basis by the government, just don't align with the facts.

You quoted Precision Vaccinations and I said it reads like a media fact checker that got all their talking points from the government and I say I nailed it. That is exactly what it was.


Well, when I asked where the 50,000 number came from, you quoted me and said where it came from. I cut and pasted for you in case you don't recall that and don't want to scroll up.

98311

98312


Instead of attacking the source I quoted, why don't you simply explain why those numbers, or anything I said, is incorrect and post your own numbers, rather than just saying everything is bull**** except the information that you got from your secret squirrel informant? It's interesting that you admit you don't know if your information is true, but you are positive mine isn't.
 

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SM Entrepreneuraholic
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You asked where it came from and I told you where I thought they had gotten it from. That didn't mean I agreed with it, and I think I made that perfectly clear.

If you look at articles similar to the one you posted, they all makes the exact same points. Coincidence or from a government source?
 
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