Sire opinions..

Discussion in 'Cattle' started by JeffNY, Apr 2, 2005.

  1. JeffNY

    JeffNY Seeking Type

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    I am curious (evermoor?) if you heard anything about any of these bulls. The bulls have high ratings for udders, good F&L, more towards "posty" tall, open rib, decent body depth. From what I've looked at, as far as quality etc, is generally a deep, open ribbed, animal, with straight legs. The udder is generally wide, high attachment, and a strong fore udder attachment. Now when you typically pick a bull, do you generally look at the pedigree of that heifer or cow? Let me use Kahlua as an example, she has a solid foundation to build off of. This is her numbers.


    PTA +441M +23F +1P 39%R
    PTA +1.6PL 3.04SCS +1.0DPR 8%DCE
    PTA +1.11T +.92UDC +.71FLC 36%R


    Considerations:

    Titanic 200HO3121
    Spy 200HO3071
    Stormatic 200HO4144

    The reason for those pics, is as stated above, open rib, deepness, udder.. Kahlua has a deep body, but her shoulders aren't sharp. Her udder will be decent, however there is room for improvement. Good Dam Good Sire.

    If I bred her to Titanic, the calf "would" have the following.

    Calf if a heifer.

    PTAT +1.89 +1.55UDC +1.78FLC

    Should "yield" a decent calf. I ask your opinion, to see if this is typically what one looks for? From the way I checked their calculations, they figure them by adding the two "scores" together, then divide by 2. It got me the numbers on the pedigree. Books are only so good.


    Jeff
     
  2. DaleK

    DaleK Well-Known Member

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    Jeff call your Semex rep ( or Select Sires, or whoever) and ask about having a mating specialist come out and do a mating recommendation on your heifers. It's usually free, they'll ask what your goals are and give you a list of 2-3 recommended bulls for each animal. They use a computer program that matches up the numbers but they also throw in some personal experiences based on seeing dozens and usually hundreds of daughters of these bulls. I have mine mated with Select Sires every six months or so, I use his recommendations about half the time and do my own thing the rest but the second opinion is useful.
     

  3. DaleK

    DaleK Well-Known Member

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    You might also notice that both Stormatic and Outside share a granddam, Comestar Laurie Sheik. I rarely like to use that much inbreeding if I can help it. You might also want to consider a bull that isn't a Storm son for comparison.
     
  4. DaleK

    DaleK Well-Known Member

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  5. DaleK

    DaleK Well-Known Member

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    I do a little bit of everything. I look at the numbers but you rarely ever hit the average in real life. I like to use a lot of variety in bloodlines so I'm using some unusual bulls, but I also use bulls with daughters I've seen and liked or who my AI tech recommends. It's still a lot more art than science.
     
  6. JeffNY

    JeffNY Seeking Type

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    Thing is, with asking those people, and sometimes getting them to come to a small operation, they tend to favor the bigger operations. For instance, we had trouble with a breeder a long while ago, he seems to like the bigger operations, as he makes it to them. Select Sires, the A.I. tech here in this area is not reliable, you call him and do not hear back, best of all the Jersey we have was missed twice, because they were never available when she was in heat. So the reason I am doing research, is so I am not relying on someone to assist me, because if I do that from my experience, you can be stuck in the rut somewhere, loosing time and money.


    The tricky part from what I am seeing, is picking the proper bull. However, it is interesting to note some places that sell semen tend to sell their high NM$ bulls, for more. Yet some sell their Udder bulls for more. For example, durham in select sires is priced up there, very nice bull. 3.10Type, 3.16UDC, 2.49FLC, high type. The previous owner's son is into the genetic thing quite a bit, and she said to have him help. One problem, he is extremely arrogant, and has a wicked ego. Sometimes people see others as competition, so you never know what direction they stear you. Maybe he wouldn't but something about him I can't trust. But what I should do, is learn how to do A.I., going to ask my vet if he knows how to, or learned how to at one point (never know). I'd like to learn, because I would be as reliable as a bull, aka I can get her bred on time, and not get her too late, like our Jersey (stuck her with the hereford anyhow, was getting WAY to frustating relying on A.I.). Anyways, just wanted to clarify things, why I am trying to figure this out..


    Jeff
     
  7. evermoor

    evermoor Well-Known Member

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    Jeff I have to admit to being a bit of a rogue breeder. You see I don't use the indexs at all, in fact I never ever use the top bulls that the Jersey assoc. says you should. For the Holsteins I review the canadain breeder, Holstein World, talk with people and see what is selling at auctions and what is winning at shows. We do not breed for index or numbers, as this seems to favor high production two year olds that blow their sacks or never breed back. I do admit a preference for show cattle and use the bulls that make these. Gennerally I use three generations of type and then one milky bull, unless milk needs to be added earlier. I use the linear traits to see what pattern the bull throws, Sickled,strong, dairy ect. Cow families are very important to us. Generally they are multiple generations of excellent or very goods with good production. Since I don't follow the Holsteints to closlyI would recommed using Stormatic, he is a popular bull with many good traits. He used to cost $50 a straw though ( i used five to get a darn bull). Titantic is a close second. I will try to post some websites later. PS Durhams are very hot right now, but damn are they mean.
     
  8. JeffNY

    JeffNY Seeking Type

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    Mean? Their sire have a nasty side? The lady whom I bought some of these guys from said she bred a couple of hers to a sire, and the calves are not friendly. But I have noticed the temperment of a calf based on either the sire, or the dam. The hereford bull we have is very very very mellow, gentle, and is at the "ill give you space" (always good). So far, 4 out of 4 calves are laid back, mild tempered, very mellow. Last year, not so. Most were skiddish, leave me alone type. But it was a different bull, he wasn't as laid back as this one. So perhaps the durham calves are ?snotty? because of "durham". See, my goals are as follows.

    Keep up on their udders, calves I want to keep. I see the lady's calves, see her animals and, since I have a piece of her genetics with 4 of these guys, I need to keep up on it. I was reading a little about picking a bull, and this one bit of info was good "Look at the sires dam, and the Maternal Granddam, to see if they missed pregnancy". Well low and behold, some of those "good" sire's dams missed some years. Some missed a year, some missed 2. Some bull's dams didn't miss, and were decent. The majority of these animals have good feet and legs, as best as I look some have slight hock in, but nothing extreme. It's tough to judge at their young age, but they are decent. Now a couple have shallow bodys, aren't open ribbed. But I guess, breed them to a bull, and see what ya get. It could be good, it could be so so. Beef cattle work out this way, some calves are awesome, grow like weeds, huge. Some grow slower, aren't as good. Using the same bull too.

    So if I understand you correctly, you tend to see their show results (daughters), popularity? and their classification? Funny you mention classification, I've seen bulls, have high traits, some daughters are 80-83 range, not to shabby, but not the 85-90 range.


    Jeff
     
  9. evermoor

    evermoor Well-Known Member

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    THe dam of Durham, Dellia is a B#$%. This has passed on to most of her progeny. Durham daughters are nervous ancy and enjoy kicking. Normal Commercial operations don't mind this as there is little contact, but tie one up and Hell's Bells. We had one in our show string and all she did was swing around, mess up the stall, and try to tramp on the neighbor's teats.
    Nowadays many cows have extended or skipped lactations due to embryo transfer, BST, and higher milk yields. Often popular cows skip the second and third lactations to fullfill contracts for bulls or embryos. This in turn causes the daughters to be popular and it continues on and on. The main criteria it seems is to score VG, make 25,000# plus, and have a positive fat protein percentages. This helps create the high index that drives up the demand.
    80-83 points is basically average for mature animals. The canadain sytems will show the percentage scored GP or better. This will give you and idea for how they actually look. For instance the bull Giprat Belles Jade has a canadain proof of
    -215 M +25 fat +0 Prt +11 FC (type) and 848 LPI and 94% GP or better
    This puts him near the top
    THe American proof is
    -1066 M -5 fat -21 Prt +.9 PTAT and 7 JPI
    This puts him near the bottom
    He was premier sire at Expo and Louisville, very popular in canada and a little here in the states. So why the differences?? Is it because the daughters are slower to mature, udders to tightly attached,ect?? Outside is very popular with breeders on both side of the border but I doubt he has ever been near the top of the Proofs here. The Laurie Sheik family has basically dominated Canadain genetics but probably would have never gotten the attention here based on the CTPI.

    As you can see cattle breeding is a tricky subject that effect some of us as much (or more) than religion. This really doesn;t effect the average homesteader other than we have genetically manipulated or milk cows to be reliate on high energy, and maintence. So go ahead and find something with some beef blood in it. On a side note Jeff breed the Heifers to a jersey for the first calf. It is so much easier on the cow and you.
     
  10. JeffNY

    JeffNY Seeking Type

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    Now in a show ring, lets say the judge asks you "Who's the sire?". If you said X is. Now would there be any bias from the judge? If he knew the bull, and he knew it wasn't high in production, but had a good line of daughters? Because it seems any animal in the show ring is liked if it has a dairy apparence, vs a nice body tone. IMO, an animal with a nice level top line, good feet and legs, (if a heifer). Of course when she is a cow, nice wide, strong, high udder, level with the hocks (I've noticed the ones scoring 95 or so have a udder that is level with the hocks). Now another interesting thing with the show ring, they like heifers with size, even though one slightly smaller might have a better top line, and all around good.


    Now I was reading about breeding, as far as what to do, in regards to size. This one person questioned "why breed so big, and then you have a higher maintainence animal?" It does make sence, because you would get a frail animal if it is toooo big. However, as I said these judges like big animals in the ring, and its why some give BST to calves to get a jump. Heck some even switch calves, call it that mothers calf, so it's bigger. Yet what this is doing is not recognizing that animal for its genetics, instead size. These people that show at different shows that I know, said they get killed because they bring something smaller than others. Because I was thinking of bringing one of the heifers born in July, the class starts June 1st. So I would be going up against animals possibly a month older. But what is interesting, these two in mind are catching up to yearlings. Those yearlings are adding more girth now, height is actually above normal (54-56", vs 50" or so for their age).

    But that temperment thing is interesting, because #6 out of 12 was born tonight (hereford calf). He is young, but exhibits the same friendlyness. There should be a section for temperment in a bulls stats. That would make for some interesting values. Because ask yourself, do you want a laid back, relaxed, not so "I hate you!" type? That type of animal will let her milk down, and won't be so ticked off at being tied up that she goes %&&%(#*$!, :). But yeah, I was thinking of breeding to a Jersey for the first calf, I will likely do something along the lines of that, and breed the others with wider hips to their breed. From my experience with those herefords, when their hips have a nice width to them, they calve out easier. The ones that were smaller, were predictable and they needed help. It's why I wait to breed them, so they calve out around 3yrs. Did this with one, and what a difference. So I will look them over, see who might have troubles (Jenel, one of the holsteins is narrow). But what I need to consider is replacements, so I will need some 100% holstein. I also plan to expand to 25-30 animals by 2008 if all goes well, so i'll need something to add in. I could breed to Norwegian reds, they seem like fairly small in stature (not as massive as holsteins). Either way, this whol breeding thing is interesting. That canadian measure is also interesting, could yield some darn good calves.


    Jeff