Silly question about a dog

Discussion in 'Homesteading Questions' started by TexasMom, Feb 20, 2004.

  1. TexasMom

    TexasMom Member

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    I don't think this is possible, but I'm not sure, so here goes. We have another 'drop off' in our front yard. :waa: She's (I think it's a she) is young and very, very timid. She's living under our old car out by the driveway and, suckers that we are, we have been putting food out trying to win her over. (Not sure what the outcome will be BTW. I have enough pets, and so does everybody I know. The shelter here usually turns down animals, due to overcrowding. She may wind up at the pound.) But meanwhile, the mailman came up to the house to deliver a certified letter. He commented to my husband that she looked like "a hela crossed with a coyote". What's a 'hela'? And can dogs cross with coyotes? That's just not possible - or is it? Tell me I'm not feeding a coyote :eek:
     
  2. Ross

    Ross Moderator Staff Member Supporter

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    Dogs can cross with coyotes but I'd think they'd be long gone. Maybe a Hela is a Heeler?
     

  3. Corgitails

    Corgitails Well-Known Member

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    Dogs *can* cross with coyotes, but I suspect a graet many 'coyote' mixes are really just husky mixed with something a little bit smaller.

    Cait
     
  4. Don Armstrong

    Don Armstrong In Remembrance

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    Probably meant "heeler", as said, but if not then your mailman may be a bit of a comic and talking about a mongrel mix - a "hellifIknow".
     
  5. Coydog is the term most used. But, like Corgitails mentioned, there is some question if there really are coydogs. I don't know, but why you couldn't have coydogs if there are wolfdogs... Is there that big of a jump between coyotes and dogs?

    -Wendy Hannum
    Secret Creek Farm
    Long Bottom, SE Ohio
     
  6. Tango

    Tango Well-Known Member

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    No big jump. Coyotes and dogs can produce offspring. When I was in Texas, there was a lot of talk of coydogs. I never saw one but that doesn't mean anything. I would think that a lot more people see a mix of some sort in the country and might call it a wolfdog or coydog without knowing for certain, but they are out there.
     
  7. Little Quacker in OR

    Little Quacker in OR Well-Known Member

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    :) Unfortunately, there are dummies who still cross wild canines with domestic dogs. If this is indeed a coydog(which, as stated already.... probably is not)there are some considerations to think about. One: There's no Rabies Vaccines for hybrid canines. Two: They are frequently anti social, shy, and fear biters. Not many can be integrated safely into the average household without danger to the family and stock.

    Please spare me all of the nonsense about your wonderful "wolf dog" or "coy dog" and what a great pet it is or was. Most of them are not as advertised, being just dogs and the bulk of the genuine articles are useless, confused creatures that make terrible "pets" and wind up in a shelter somewhere, put down after a few days or shot outright. It's a rare human who understands the needs of the these poor animals and how they think and act or re act. Most of the experts who deal with them on a professional basis recognize that to have a chance of "socializing" them you must start out a 10 days of age or so and spend 24 hours a day with them and understand what they are about. Even this doesn't work as many times the genes are just too scrambled and the result is an unbalanced critter.

    Just proceed with caution and even if this poor thing is "all dog", be careful. A scared, mentally unstable canine can be dangerous. Evaluate carefully before adopting it. Good luck, hope all goes well for you and the dog. LQ
     
  8. jillianjiggs

    jillianjiggs Well-Known Member

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    There's a rescue group out here in Sacramento that specializes in rescuing coyote/domestic dog mixes from irresponsible owners and the pound. He drives around with a trailer full of them to educate people at the fair, farmers markets, etc. It's defiantely not a cuddly lap dog breed.
     
  9. bgak47

    bgak47 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about this poor dog that is living under an old car,But I have to thank you for feeding it. I'm really sorry that you are tasked with feeding these ''drop offs'',but it really says something to me that you are willing to feed them. Somewhere, sometime, you WILL be rewarded! Coyotes & domestic dogs can breed & they do. If you can tame this coy-dog , you may find that it is the best dog that you've ever had. If not, you have the satisfaction of knowing that you did your best for an animal in need.
     
  10. TexasMom

    TexasMom Member

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    Thanks all; I'm not sure at all that the thing is a coyote cross, but she does kind of look like one from certain angles. And the poor thing is so wild. I'm assuming she was dropped off - but I don't know how anyone would have gotten her into a car in the first place.
    Bgak47, like I said we are sort of suckers for animals. (But I don't want to get older and find out I've turned into one of those collector women, with 50 feral cats running around the house or some such.) If we can tame her down enough to get rabies shots, and she doesn't pose a threat to anyone I imagine she's found a home though.
    Linda
     
  11. Lurker

    Lurker New Member

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    I think it is urban legend that the Rabies vaccines won't work on dog/coyote cross breeds.

    My sons coydog was given a rabies shot every year.

    My son had a coydog, that was half and half. My son raises sheep, and he made a prize winning sheep dog out of the coydog. People used to come around just to see the animal work sheep. It lived 15 years, always loyal and guarding the sheep.

    In my opinion socialization, with the family, is the key to any animal training routine.

    Not to flame at you, however, you may take it that way. It would be a mistake to think so, but please spare me the depth of your knowledge on a subject, you do not seem to be conversant, or knowledgable on. It isn't nonsense that any animal can be a wonderful pet.Though it may seen like nonsense to your closed mind.

    Laying at my feet, is a half German shepherd/Timber Wolf cross that I rescued from a family that said he was out of control. I know their sooo uncontrollable, but don't tell my grandaughter that. If I have a need to chastise the grandaughter, first, I lock up the Wolf/dog. He has definet ideas how children should be treated.

    It took me about a month to get the Wolf/dogs confidence. In another six months it was hard to keep him off of the bed. The animal stays one step behind me all day. If I go hunting, and get a rabbit, I had better get to the rabbit before he does, or it's down the hatch. After the first two rabbits, I get to claim the rest.

    It is my opinion about all dogs, hybrides and cross breeds, that if you see a bad animal, look for a bad owner lurking around. After all the animal we call dog, once was a wild predator too.

    I rescued a Pitt Bull that had bitten three people. They were trying to beat it, so I guess the dogs self-defense came into play. I had that mean-assed dog for fifteen years. I got 100% devotion and obedience from that "mean" animal every day. If someone else tried to pet him, he would go behind me, placing me between him and that person. After the beating I rescued him from, the only humans he trusted were my wife and I. Have you got any idea what made him that way?

    Always procede with caution when attempting to tame/socialize any animal.

    Bill
     
  12. Lurker

    Lurker New Member

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    I think it is urban legend that the Rabies vaccines won't work on dog/coyote cross breeds.

    My sons coydog was given a rabies shot every year.

    My son had a coydog, that was half and half. My son raises sheep, and he made a prize winning sheep dog out of the coydog. People used to come around just to see the animal work sheep. It lived 15 years, always loyal and guarding the sheep.

    In my opinion socialization, with the family, is the key to any animal training routine.

    Where do you get all of this experience, that causes you to be able to pronounce judgements about these topics? It isn't nonsense that any animal can be a wonderful pet. Though it may seen like nonsense to your closed mind.

    Not to flame at you, however, you may take it that way. It would be a mistake to think so, but please spare me the depth of your knowledge on a subject, you do not seem to be conversant, or knowledgable on.

    I wouldn't consider myself, or my son either, to be rare humans. But we do understand, and are able to train animals, others have pronounced untrainable.

    When I was much younger I used to "gentle break" horses for myself, and other people. I have never been bucked off of a horse I was breaking. Some were nervous when I would first climb into the saddle, but that would go away. I treat all animals with patience and kindness. I have never came across an animal that I couldn't gentle, or tame. Horse, or Dog.

    The first requirement of all, is that you have to be smarter than the animal you're working with. ;) :) I'll bet this causes flaming comments. But, it is true.

    Laying at my feet, is a half German shepherd/Timber Wolf cross that I rescued from a family that said he was out of control. I know their sooo uncontrollable, but don't tell my grandaughter that. If I have a need to chastise the grandaughter, first, I lock up the Wolf/dog. He has definet ideas how children should be treated.

    It took me about a month to get the Wolf/dogs confidence. In another six months it was hard to keep him off of the bed. This 200 pound animal stays one step behind me all day. If I go hunting, and get a rabbit, I had better get to the rabbit before he does, or it's down the hatch. After the first two rabbits, I get to claim the rest.

    It is my opinion about all dogs, hybrides and cross breeds, that if you see a bad animal, look for a bad owner lurking around. After all, the animal we call dog, once was a wild predator too.

    I rescued a Pitt Bull that had bitten three people. They were trying to beat it, so I guess the dogs self-defense came into play. I had that mean-assed dog for over fifteen years. I got 100% devotion and obedience from that "mean" animal every day. If someone else tried to pet him, he would go behind me, placing me between him and that person. After the beating I rescued him from, the only humans he trusted were my wife and I. After reading this, have you got any idea what made him that way?

    Always procede with caution when attempting to tame/socialize any animal. The animal, from your description, it seems to me is terminally afraid, but would like to be friends, or it would not stay there.

    Don't put you hand above the level of the dogs head. Approach the dog with your hand at a heighth where the dog would have to lean down to accept what ever you offer it.

    Bill
     
  13. countrygrrrl

    countrygrrrl PITA

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    Well, I'm sure Lurker possesses talents 99% of the human population only dream of.

    The sad truth is, there is a very narrow window of opportunity for socialization with dogs. If dogs fail to be properly socialized to other dogs and/or to people during that time, they suffer lifetime deficits. Doesn't mean they can't acquire some degree of peace of mind and ability to trust, and that they can't have nice lives. But it does require fairly major time and commitment, and some fairly distinct training techniques.

    I don't always agree with Quacker, but know that she's done enough work with critters (given her occupation is critter-related, although I don't remember how -- wildlife refuge or something --- ) that I trust her opinion. In fact, much as I haven't wanted to on more than a few occasions, I have often come around to agreeing with her.

    I also have a fear-aggressive dog who, from what I can piece together, received virtually no socialization to humans until he came to live with me, at about 6 mos. He was given up because of aggression at a young age. Coupled with a shy temperament, it's been a job. But he has a good life, with limitations --- specifically, I keep him by my side with strangers because he does not like people he doesn't know well. Were his innate temperament not shy, he would have much fewer limitations.

    It's as simple as this: you have to go case by case. Although there will be similarities between dogs and doggie problems, each dog will possess a unique complex of temperament and experience.
     
  14. jessandcody

    jessandcody Well-Known Member

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    We live in an area overrun with coyote's. Yes they can, and often do, "cross" with regular dogs. Anytime a dog is let to run free and is not fixed, then they are free to breed with any canine that is willing.

    In fact, last week I saw a coyote walk off into the woods and a stray "normal" dog was standing in the road with that " you-interrupted-my-love-life-look".

    If she looks part coyote - then assume she is. Some can be tamed, some will stay wild. Just depends on what traits are more dominant. Best of luck.

    - Jess
     
  15. Buffy in Dallas

    Buffy in Dallas Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I hate to put it this way but I assume you are a mom. If you love your children DO NOT take that dog in. I'm sorry but this is expirence talking here. My cousin adopted a half-wolf from a "good breeder" supposed to be socialized and all.
    Ya right. All went well until he tried to eat her 2 yr old when she put her arm through a fence to pet him. If it weren't for that fence she would be dead. This "dog" lived in the house for a year before this happened. I wouldn't trust a Dog much less a half wild ? with god knows what back ground around my children!
    Call the pound. Sounds cruel, but a dead child is worse. :waa:
     
  16. Corgitails

    Corgitails Well-Known Member

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    I don't care if they CAN be socialized. I know that 99.9% of the ones I know were ill-behaved, destructive, and unpredictable, and shy-verging-on-fear-aggressive.

    NONE of these are traits that make a good pet.

    The fact is, if these dogs end up in a shelter, they have a more-or-less automatic death sentence.

    The fact is, if coyotes and wolves made good pets, no one would have bothered domesticating them!

    If you really think you want a wolf, or a wolf-dog, spend a session volunteering at Wolf Park in Indiana. They have a terrific internship program, and you'll learn a ton about wolf (and to an extent canine, but not a whole lot- the more time I spent watching wolves, the more I realized how DIFFERENT they were behaviorally from dogs!)

    There was an attempt (two, actually, but I haven't met any of the second breed) to cross dogs and wolves (German Shepherds and an eastern European species of wolf) in an attempt to create a better police dog, with higher intelligence and incredibly loyal- that's one of the traits wolfdog owners tout, after all, is how bonded they are to their individual dog. They discovered that the wolfdogs are not as trainable, and were too shy to be safe police dogs. The breed that evolved out of this experiement? The Saarlos Wolfdog. A second attempt, using the more pack-oriented Grey Timberwolf as the cross, created the Czech Wolfdog, and aws about as sucessful.

    Wolfdogs are a decent pet for an infintesimal fraction of the dog owning public. The number of people breeding them and buying them is MUCH higher.

    This is true of any breed of dog, and doubly true for anything as high maintance as a wolfdog.

    Cait *putting the soap box away*
     
  17. Terri

    Terri Singletree & Weight Loss & Permaculture Moderator Staff Member Supporter

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    I have heard from more than one source that the Native Americans in the arctic have been crossing the sled dogs with wolves for centuries, and have had good results. The dogs are stronger, and the wolves have more endurance for the long runs.

    Of course, they ALSO traditionally put down ANY canine, wolf dog or not, that showed aggression towards any human. They had families, too, and wouldn't tolerate an animal that was not safe around their kids. Those sled dogs would fight with each other, but not with humans.

    I don't know if they STILL do this, but they DID when the books were written umpteen decades ago. It would apper at least SOME wolf/dog crosses are safe.

    Coydog? All dog? I don't know. I don't really think that bloodlines matter. Every critter is what it is, and only you can decide what it's temprament is like. :confused:
     
  18. TexasMom

    TexasMom Member

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    :) Well, thanks for all of the replies - I love this site, it's a wonderful source of information and opinions on 'bout anything.
    I'm thinking she's just a mutt. The possible coyotes origins do give her an excuse for her otherwise unexplainable sheer ugly looks. But she grows on you; she's put on weight and become almost friendly. Lets me pet her some. She gets that eternally grateful, tail thumping, absolutely thrilled look over the simple kindnes of a regular meal. She's moved from under the old car to under the house. She's a small dog and not at all agressive; I'll have to figure out how to transport her to the vet soon for shots and neutering. Ha - wish me luck there!
    Linda
     
  19. jack_c-ville

    jack_c-ville Well-Known Member

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    Terri,

    Are you talking about Inuit sled dogs? Those are absolutely great dogs, but not for 99% of dog owners. Daniel Pinkwater, dog-trainer and writer of childrens books, has written a lot about his experiences with sled dogs. From what I gather, they are very high-energy and playful, very loyal and a lot of fun. But they instinctively play very rough and tend to test the hierarchy of the family 'pack' much more frequently and violently than most dogs. Most other dogs and people are not prepared for the discipline needed to live with them. It takes a special kind of person to give these dogs the kind of home that they need.

    I have 3 dogs, all of which are mixed breed strays and 2 of whom I have had to help overcome certain character defects that they showed up with. But I know that I am not the right person to handle a wolf-dominant mix or an Inuit sled dog. So many of the dogs that end up in shelters or are put down every year found themselves in that situation because some well-meaning family bought a dog of a breed that was simply inappropriate for them. All dogs are great in their own ways, but all people are not right for those dogs.
     
  20. Tango

    Tango Well-Known Member

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    This is a great thread- such a good example of the diversity of people and experience we have here. I've had two wolfdogs- possibly three although the third might have been a feral long -haired German Shepherd (she was trapped and turned over to Animal Control where I adopted her). Each one was unique. Behaviorally there was not one standard I could apply to all three of them, other than a strong pack attachment. The F1 50/50 was raised with my son who was one year when I got Aries. There was never any aggression toward my son, who shared his dog house as a playhouse. When I started dating agin, Aries would have no part of my dates. Very strong aggression there. The second was a supposedly higher percentage wolf (but we know the percentages after F1 are only on paper), she was very shy but not aggressive. Her shyness led her back into the house after she was removed during a fire. She died of smoke inhalation in her favorite spot :waa: The feral dog was also very attached to the pack and especially to my children but she would not tolerate any other children AT ALL. Given my personal experiences with wolfdogs, I would introduce another one to my home if I had the time to devote. It is unfortunate that these animals attract ego trippers and in that sense they have been very much ruined both by breeding and by publicity by the same folks who brought you today's street bred Pit, Rottie, and Dobie. And last I checked, dogs and wolves are co-specific. While no rabies vaccine is approved for wolves, wolf dogs (wolves and dogs together do not produce hybrids) are required to be vaccinated for rabies just like dogs. I've never heard of a problem in that respect and I've corresponded with each state vet in the fifty states on this very subject. I always made sure mine recieved their annual.