ready to give up

Discussion in 'Goats' started by murphyjamie, Aug 22, 2006.

  1. murphyjamie

    murphyjamie Well-Known Member

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    I know you guys are probably tired of reading my posts, however if I'm not able to relax soon, i am going to have to give up this goat thing that I was really enjoying up until now. I have had two problems,1. I grain fed my two little bucks and one got uc at 3months old. Surgery to repair and no grain was fed afterwards. I only fed bermuda hay, free choice minerals, and water. The little guy never put on much weight and last weekend he passed away. Looking back now I dont think the little guys were eating much hay. Not sure how much they should eat to judge that. With that being said, I threw out all of my old hay and bought new hay and a little doe to go with my remaining wether. I tether them up in the evenings and offer her some grain. She eats maybe about a half a cup and then gets anxious about being on the leash. Her breeder claims that she was eating three cups a day before. Now I am scared that she is going to decline and end up like the last goat. Someone please give me some peace of mind. Is it ok to keep offering her the grain for about 15 minutes and then pick it up and rely on the hay from there? My other option is to give them both a few cups of grain in the evening and leave it out till the next morning, but then I'm afraid the little wether will end up with UC again. I think I'm going to need anxiety medicine for myself soon.
     
  2. murphyjamie

    murphyjamie Well-Known Member

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    sorry, I thought my computer was frozen and didnt realize it posted twice
     

  3. Mrs_stuart

    Mrs_stuart Well-Known Member

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    I would offer the grain and if it is not gone in so long, then I would pick it up.
    If you have free choice hay out, then that should be fine. A lot of people feed nothing but hay. She may not be eating much because of the "changes" in her life, I think that is normal. Just make sure she eats something and doesnt quit eating. I would offer her some yoghurt too, to keep some good bacteria in her stomach... That is just what I would do.

    I sure understand about worrying, We moved our bedroom to the other side of the house, where I couldnt "hear" the goats and I worried about them all the time, what if dogs come around, what if they get out, and I couldn't sleep, I would get up and go check on them and such. worried myself to death and then I Just had to make a decision to check them when I could, double check the gates were locked before bed time and if all was good then I HAD to leave it at that or just move a cot out into the goat yard, lol!!!

    Needless to say, I still sleep inside and I do sleep better. things will get better with you too.

    Oh yeah, I would add some cider vinegar 5% to your goats water, about 1/4 cup to 5 gallons or so...it helps with the CA... and it is ok for both goats too...

    Belinda
     
  4. HilltopDaisy

    HilltopDaisy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Wow, you poor thing, you've had a tough time of it.

    OK, I would not feed anyone any grain or pellet feed at this point, regardless of what the doe is used to. Are you not able to fence in a grassy/pasture area for them? (Sorry but I haven't followed along, I just feel so bad for you so I wanted to respond). She is not used to being tied out, so she is very upset about it? What kind of goats? Not sure I understand why you threw away the hay you had.
     
  5. AllWolf

    AllWolf We love all our animals

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    First off murphyjamie take a very deep breath.. Try to calm down and relax.. Hate to hear you have had a hard go of it. Do not feel bad my dear because when I first started out with goats I was about ready to pull my hair out at first. I lost 3 baby goats in no time. Two of the baby goats was lost due to Cocci and the third was due to a snake bite.. I have had rough luck at first but it does get better.. Hang in there.. It will get better I promise. I know if I had rough luck and still hanging in you can do it too.

    Next
    For wethers or bucks do not give them grain because if give them to much grain it can cause UC or known as urinary calculi (A disease wethers / bucks can get from to much calcium/protein) They can have hay and grass. The medicated pellets I use for my bucks / wethers is Country Acres it has in the medicated pellets ammonium chloride. Also be sure to give them goat minerals. Which we give ours Ultralyx for goats not for sheep.
    Make sure the hay isn't moldy or wet..

    Here is what I do: For my does here is what I give them to eat> Cracked corn, oats, calf manna, alfalfa, wet molasses, soybeans and beet pulp. -Do not forget to let them have hay and goat mineral free of choice and lots of fresh drinking water. Again for my goats mineral for the Does we use Ultralyx for goats not for sheep.

    Just give enough grain to the doe and see if she will eat it.. Leave it for a little bit and see if she eats it all. Sometimes a goat in a new place will not eat as much at first but later will start to eat.

    I can not remember if you said you have wormed your goats. If not you will need to worm them because if they have worms it makes them where they do not want to eat..

    To see if they need to be wormed check their eyelids.. For my wormer I use either Ivomec or SafeGuard wormer but it depends on how old your goats are. Now for my older goats I altrade the wormers because if you keep using the same wormer it will stop working.

    Here is some stuff that may help you also.. Not trying to scare you but help you..
    Physical signs of a healthy goat are:
    Attitude - Alert and inquisitive
    Appetite - Shows interest in food. Chews cud after feeding
    Weight - Normal weight and gain as other animals
    Reproductive Organs - Normal
    Eyes - Bright and not running
    Nose - Cool and dry
    Coat/Skin - Clean, glossy and no lumps
    Droppings - Firm and pelleted
    Urine - Light brown and no blood
    Breathing - Regular and unlabored
    Gait - Steady and no limping
    Vocal - Normal

    Physical symptoms associated with certain disease or conditions
    Attitude - Depressed, hangs its head, misery, collapsed, restless, dull, weak
    Appetite - Off food, loss of appetite
    Body - Muscle twitching, bloated, swelling in flank, knees enlarged,-abscesses of lymph gland, head-shaking,-swollen red navel
    Breathing - Chronic cough, sweet smell of breath, breathing rapidly
    Coat/Skin - Pimples, watery blisters, encrusted scabs, foul smell, loss of condition, irritation, rubbing, bald patches, itching, small lumps or bag of fluid, raised and red, grey-white crusty appearance, thickened, hair thin or absent, coat tussled and standing on end
    Droppings - Diarrhea, watery, scouring with bubbles of gas, tapeworm segments, loose, straining-to pass feces,
    Eyes - Watery, cornea cloudy, white spots in cornea, reddened, pupils narrowed to slits, excess tears spilling over on skin, sensitive to the light
    Gait - Drunken behavior, stands with its back arched or with hind feet placed well back, unable to stand, lies on side making paddling movements, lameness, reluctant to walk
    Nose - runny, snotty, stopped
    Reproductive Organs - Hard udder, hot udder, udder very tender
    Urine - Bloody, unable to urinate, strains to urinate
    Vocal - Crying out, grinding teeth (sign of pain)
    Weight - Wasting, rapid weight loss, dehydration

    I'm not trying to scare you OK? This is to help you out.. I think your just worrying way to much and need to calm down. I know what it is like to be in your boots.

    Gosh I hope I didn't scare you by posting this.. If so I'm sorry just trying to help you out.

    Also here is something else to help you understand goats health more.
    Health-management Interaction: Goats

    Good Luck and try to calm down some.. I know it is hard but try to..
     
  6. goatkid

    goatkid Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why do you tether your goats? Is this just to feed them or to keep them put for the night? If you are doing this to keep them from running off, you might want to build them a goat yard. This would be safer for them. It sounds like your litttle doe is scared of her new routine. All my doelings get for grain is the medicated pellets. They can eat them right along with the wethers. They are happier eating together.
    The first year I had goats was stressful for me and we still have stressful times, like when I had a couple does with milk fever last spring. These are all learning experiences for me and I am getting better at spotting problems and treating them. Hang in there.
     
  7. goat^farmer

    goat^farmer Well-Known Member

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    Does & wethers can eat together but if have does to have babies later they needs grains not just medicated feed. Does needs to gain weigh to be able to carry babies.. Just a thought.
     
  8. murphyjamie

    murphyjamie Well-Known Member

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  9. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    I don't think infant and small goats can sustain themselves on grass hay and pasture. Like was mentioned before, I would ditch the grain you are feeding and move to a medicated goat pellet, usually for meat goats, they contain both a drug (lasaloci, decoquinate or bovatec) for cocci...but also ammonium chloride for urinary calculi. I feed all my infant and young doelings and bucklings (sorry I don't make wethers) alfalfa hay and a pellet like the above. Purina's Country Acres is fine, but they make 100's of them, find one close that gets used alot by other meat goat breeders so it stays fresh. Keep the bag in the house in rubbermaid, only bringing out what they eat each day so it stay fresher longer. Also with only 2 goats find one with decoquinate in it because it does not have the shelf life problems some of theo thers do.

    Worm your goats every month until they are well grown with Cydectin, 1cc per 25 pounds orally, buy a weigh tape so you can know how much they weigh, then about 8 months think about just taking in a fecal sample to the vet to see when you need to worm, I fecal the first of every month. Order your stuff out of the jefferspet.com catalogs or online so you save money, keep your wormer, etc.. in the fridge so you don't have to worry about it going out of date, or share a container with someone if your vet doesn't carry it...vets will sell you doses if you don't want to buy the whole amount from Jeffers.

    I am not a fan of tethering, but lots of very well taken care of animals are tethered everyday. Until your doeling gets used to it, don't leave her unattended...I lost a buckling who was tethered here, he freaked out and broke his neck and I wasn't even 100 feet from him.

    Keep it simple.....medicated meat goat pellets, the nicest hay you can find, clean water, exercise, and a clean dry place to sleep is all they need.
     
  10. AllWolf

    AllWolf We love all our animals

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    murphyjamie
    How is your goats doing today? I was just wondering because I know what it is like to feel like giving up.

    Good Luck on your goats. :)
     
  11. Faithful Heart

    Faithful Heart Well-Known Member

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    You're probably sick and tired of suggestions. :) But I just had a thought. Could you maybe tether the wether outside the pen? Or farther away from where she eats? Then not tether her? Maybe that way she can adjust to the new system, and maybe she'll eat and not be worrying about getting free from the tether.

    I would also like to have all mine trained to being tethered while eating. I can see that as being a much more relaxing experience compared to a bunch of fighting or pushing goats.
     
  12. Lizi

    Lizi Active Member

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    TSC goat chow is not medicated, but does have ammonium chloride in it. It is fairly reasonable, price wise. Also you can get a.c. to sprinkle on other feed. Sometimes you can damage the urinary system by banding to wether. Things happen, don't beat yourself up. They can live well with fresh water, good grass/alfalfa hay and sunshine and love. I would feed them seperately if you can, then let them be together. I would have a small pen for nighttime with access to a small barn/big doghouse, etc. for their safety. Enjoy your goats.
     
  13. murphyjamie

    murphyjamie Well-Known Member

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    They are doing about the same today. The little doe still hasn't started eating very much feed, but I did see her eating some hay this evening. I think I confused everyone when I said she was on grain. She is being fed the Land o Lake intimidator show goat feed with some calf manna in it. I think she picks out the calf manna more than anything else. I really appreciate all of your suggestions and help. thanks
     
  14. moonspinner

    moonspinner Well-Known Member

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    I grain my buck kids, increasing slowly the amount til they are 9 months, then taper off til a year and afterwards no grain. I don't overdo it. And very little corn. I would try isolating the wether at feeding time so the little doe is comfortable while eating and not tied. I'm assuming she's on the same diet as the former owner had her on? I don't know what it is about UC but I can't pin down why so many wethers die. I've known wethers who were castrated both early on and later, who have been grained and not been grained, on alfalfa hay and grass hay, all on ammon. chloride, all who died of UC. Vicki, maybe you can address this - why are goats prone to UC as opposed to other animals? Something to do with urethra length?
     
  15. AllWolf

    AllWolf We love all our animals

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    URINARY CALCULI IN GOATS

    This explains a lot of why goats get this.. It also states that the Does can get it to but not likely..
     
  16. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Urinary Calculi is a problem in male goats, both intact and wethered because of the diameter of the urethra, think small stirring drinking straw you get with a drink at a bar, compared to a does urethra that is about the size of a regular drinking straw. The males urethra also makes a 90 degree angle up inside, which of course further facilitates blockage and is why you really can't catheterize a buck, like you can easily do in a doe.

    We of course cause all the problems goats get into, and in this case it's because of grain....grain = phosphrous. Feeding a goat feed that contains ammonium chloride is fine, if you feed it in the amount stated on the bag...1 pound of feed per 50 pounds of body weight etc... than the buck/wether gets all the AC he needs to keep urinary calculi at bay...but you aren't just feeding that are you? You top dress with calf manna, one of the highest phosphurous products you could purchase....it also has estrogen rich protein in the form of soy, and is the highest protein you could fine, except feeding soybean meal. Sound like anything a wethered male needs? Nope. So with adding more phosphrous, protein, etc. to the diet, there now isn't enough ammonium chloride in his diet to keep urinary calculi at bay.

    Intimidator is an excellent feed, originally made by Langston University to raise out show wethers when Boers hit the states. What are you trying to improve by adding calf manna? It's guilding the lily if you look at it on paper, and in a wether, who is nothing but an eating machine, not making testosterone to become a breeding male, or having kids/milking, it's this excess that is causing the problems. Calf Manna is wonderful to put too early weaned kids on because it is made from whey, and kids love it, it also improves an all oat diet, with it's wonderful vitamin and mineral program.

    It's so hard to get your information on the internet, being new how do you desern which information to use? Take it slow, make all chages even slower. The feed you are using is fine without the supplement. Vicki
     
  17. murphyjamie

    murphyjamie Well-Known Member

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    One more question and I promise I will quit.(for now!) I am getting ready to extend the yard the goats are kept in since they have eaten the grass down to nothing. Once I extend it I will have almost a half acre fenced for these two pygmys. Another goat owner in the area told me that if I do that my goats will fill up on the johnson grass in the yard and not eat any hay. He says that the Johnson grass has no nutritional value and that I should wait until I get more weight on them to extend the fence. What do you guys think? Also to update you on the problems I'm having, the little doe is starting to eat a little more each day. I think she will be fine. Unless the wether starts losing weight, I am going to keep him away from the pellets. They are doing much better and so am I thanks to the great people on this site. It is nice to know there are still so many good people out there who help people like myself. I thank you all from the bottom of my heart and I pray God blesses you all for your concern for my family and all the help you have given me. Also my five year old son is doing much better now after the other goats death. He is in my lap ready to see any new pics that may have been posted. Again, I thank you all.
     
  18. Alice In TX/MO

    Alice In TX/MO More dharma, less drama. Supporter

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    Extend the pasture, ignore the neighbor. Johnson grass is often used for horse hay in my neck of the woods.