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Depends on your location. None of those trades make that much money here, even with the training, licensing and experience. Most start at $17 an hour with a few topping out around $30 if you work weird hours, weekends and are on-call most of the time. The benefits provide a bit more compensation than just the base pay.
$30 an hour is more than $62,000 a year, plus full benefits. That's higher than the median income for households in the US. That isn't bad money, especially compared to the minimum wage we are talking about. If a family can't live well on $62,000 a year, I think they need to examine their money management skills.
 

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Depends on your location. None of those trades make that much money here, even with the training, licensing and experience. Most start at $17 an hour with a few topping out around $30 if you work weird hours, weekends and are on-call most of the time. The benefits provide a bit more compensation than just the base pay.
Have you not heard about moving. If I made some calls and hooked up to the welding trailer I could be making $75 an hour next week. I change out water heaters faster than the old one drains. It didn't start at 17 an hour but $6.50. That was years ago but I learned!!!
 

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It depends on what value you put on my skills.
And there lies the matter of perception.
My deceased father in law's 1935 2 owner Chevrolet Coupe is worth 12k to his sons. A buyer from Texas is willing to travel 5 states to pay them 10k. The sons won't budge a nickel. No local buyers, no other offers for the year it has been for sale. It sits.
The value of that car is what it sells for. In the end it doesn't matter a bit what you think or what your buddy tells you.
In the marketplace you can market yourself for what you think your value is. You can be insulted and complain and kick and go somewhere else, but in the end, if that old Chevy sells for 10k, no one is going to step in and supplement my mother in law the difference in money for that car.
Maybe we should require that all vehicles sell for a minimum of $15000.
That would protect the buyer and the seller, right?
 

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And there lies the matter of perception.
My deceased father in law's 1935 2 owner Chevrolet Coupe is worth 12k to his sons. A buyer from Texas is willing to travel 5 states to pay them 10k. The sons won't budge a nickel. No local buyers, no other offers for the year it has been for sale. It sits.
The value of that car is what it sells for. In the end it doesn't matter a bit what you think or what your buddy tells you.
In the marketplace you can market yourself for what you think your value is. You can be insulted and complain and kick and go somewhere else, but in the end, if that old Chevy sells for 10k, no one is going to step in and supplement my mother in law the difference in money for that car.
Maybe we should require that all vehicles sell for a minimum of $15000.
That would protect the buyer and the seller, right?
I might be wrong but aren't both of you on the same page? Offer and acceptance that's a term in real estate...
 

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Have you not heard about moving. If I made some calls and hooked up to the welding trailer I could be making $75 an hour next week. I change out water heaters faster than the old one drains. It didn't start at 17 an hour but $6.50. That was years ago but I learned!!!
Moving seems to be the solution to everything. So move to California where the same jobs pay twice as much and the same house costs 5 times more. It's all about location. The median or average income in one area may be a whole lot less or more in another area. The cost of living may be a whole lot less or a whole lot more. Just like the old ads about moving to Alaska to earn more money. They didn't tell people that prices are several times what they were in the lower 48.

How much does your license, bonding and insurance to change water heaters cost? It's not worth the expense here unless you are doing a couple a week.
 

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Moving seems to be the solution to everything.
Moving has its pluses and minuses. I was away from "home" for almost 40 years. Moved back in time to spend his last three years with Dad. Luckily Mom is still with us.

Had I stayed here, I would be much poorer. I moved many times chasing a dollar. As it was, I retired in my mid 50s, bought a 150 acre farm and built a nice house. Zero debt. I started with nothing.
 

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Moving seems to be the solution to everything. So move to California where the same jobs pay twice as much and the same house costs 5 times more. It's all about location. The median or average income in one area may be a whole lot less or more in another area. The cost of living may be a whole lot less or a whole lot more. Just like the old ads about moving to Alaska to earn more money. They didn't tell people that prices are several times what they were in the lower 48.

How much does your license, bonding and insurance to change water heaters cost? It's not worth the expense here unless you are doing a couple a week.
It doesn't cost me a dime. It's on rental property. How about we go another direction? Years ago I paid a man $600 for installing 600 sq ft of floating / snap lock floors. He was gone by lunch. I never had to call him again. I watched and learned, put it down in my brother's house in October. Way better quality product but saved him 10k on installation. It's all what someone learns. I do this on rentals every week.
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Moving has its pluses and minuses. I was away from "home" for almost 40 years. Moved back in time to spend his last three years with Dad. Luckily Mom is still with us.

Had I stayed here, I would be much poorer. I moved many times chasing a dollar. As it was, I retired in my mid 50s, bought a 150 acre farm and built a nice house. Zero debt. I started with nothing.
After chasing money for a few years I simplified things by moving. I moved to Kentucky, a lovely place where being poor is socially acceptable. :)
 

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After chasing money for a few years I simplified things by moving. I moved to Kentucky, a lovely place where being poor is socially acceptable. :)
But comfortable as well?!?! That's what counts. If you're satisfied that was the plan ?
 

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Discussion Starter #172
You are only worth what you can produce. That is all. If you can produce 15 an hour then someone will hire you at that wage. If you cant, they wont. If you can produce 100 an hour then go find a job that will pay that or start your own business. Everyone wants to be paid a living wage? Then go out and produce one. Get noticed and build from there.
 

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It is literally what you get with unrestricted capitalism. Yes, it is capitalism in its rawest form.




Load of BS, and you know it.

If an employee is especially bad, they should just be fired. The real reason people are paid minimal wages and never given a raise is simply because the employer can get away with it because they've got the employee by the balls most of the time. Do not pretend it is anything but that.
There are some jobs that are only worth so much pay, no matter the worker’s experience or education. On the other hand there are a lot of jobs and employers who would really like to find good employees and pay them a fair price. In my little slice of the world I constantly hear from managers in a variety of job types that wish they could find decent help. Personally I am self employed and could easily double my business IF I COULD FIND GOOD HELP. Pay is not the issue. As it is, I sort of pick the jobs I want and can handle with the reliable help I have. There are opportunities out there, for those that wish to make a effort.
 

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Sorry to say but this seems to be one of those pointless discussions where both sides are firmly entrenched and there is no middle ground to be found. It feels like a discussion on gun control or abortion. These are debates that can't be won or lost. Everyone is presenting good information, but nobody is going to be swayed. Our whole country feels this way these days.
 

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Sorry to say but this seems to be one of those pointless discussions where both sides are firmly entrenched and there is no middle ground to be found. It feels like a discussion on gun control or abortion. These are debates that can't be won or lost. Everyone is presenting good information, but nobody is going to be swayed. Our whole country feels this way these days.
It's a struggle when people talk about how hard it is, how unfair it is, how they just can't get ahead, the system is rigged, when I can literally take them by the hand and walk them to a job that will start them at $19 an hour. Any attempt to do that is met by a myriad of excuses for why they can't do that. So yes, I think you're right that neither side will be swayed. The people that think they are victims are going to continue to talk about how unfair it all is, while the people that realize they are responsible for themselves and that no one owes them anything will continue to find these elusive good-paying jobs.
 

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We can raise the minimum wage by cutting taxes.
Actually, it is fairly simple. Supply and demand. If I have a million artichokes to sell, I'll have to steeply discount them if I'm to sell them all. If Florida has a freeze, destroying the citrus crop, prices for oranges go up. Wages and wage earners are the same concept. If you learn a skill that is in short supply, employers will need to out bid others for your skills. If there is a glut of unskilled workers, wages will remain low. If you are satisfied with that, keep working. If you want a higher wage, learn a skill or become more valuable to your employer.
The government mandated increases in wages just starts a spiral of inflation. The government can be helpful by enforcing the immigration laws. Flooding the country with unskilled laborers depresses demand for unskilled laborers, depressing wages. If 15 million illegal aliens were sent back home, the shortage of unskilled laborers would force employers to compete/attract workers with higher wages. Let the market sort it out. If you think you deserve a higher wage just because you need more money, you need a better understanding of economics. Don't push for a higher minimum wage. Push your elected officials to secure the border. Then learn a skill,
 

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haypoint is correct about the "migrant" or "undocumented" worker (illegal immigrants or resident migrants) issue. When you have people who will work all day for low pay and no benefits why would you pay minimum wage and benefits to people who won't work as hard? But there is another aspect to the story. The attitude of some, probably most, young Americans is "gimme, gimme, gimme". Most American youths today have no idea how to work, show up to work on time or even do the job they hired on to do.

I had the experience of trying to train people how to do a menial, low skill job which paid better than minimum wage. I could tell you within 2 hours if a person was going to be there and collect a check, or actually do the job. Most Americans, especially young women, thought the job was beneath them and they shouldn't have to do it the way I showed them to do it. It was just fanning through mail to make sure an address was in the envelope window and making sure the envelope was sealed then putting the mail in the proper tray. Wasn't hard, boring at times, but not rocket science. I gave my trainees all the help they asked for. I wasn't mean about it but I expected them to do the work and stay off the phone. Very few returned the next day, even fewer would come back the next month.

But maybe I'm just too hard to get along with, IDK. Several of my machine operator trainees stayed for years.
 

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We can raise the minimum wage by cutting taxes.
Actually, it is fairly simple. Supply and demand. If I have a million artichokes to sell, I'll have to steeply discount them if I'm to sell them all. If Florida has a freeze, destroying the citrus crop, prices for oranges go up. Wages and wage earners are the same concept. If you learn a skill that is in short supply, employers will need to out bid others for your skills. If there is a glut of unskilled workers, wages will remain low. If you are satisfied with that, keep working. If you want a higher wage, learn a skill or become more valuable to your employer.
The government mandated increases in wages just starts a spiral of inflation. The government can be helpful by enforcing the immigration laws. Flooding the country with unskilled laborers depresses demand for unskilled laborers, depressing wages. If 15 million illegal aliens were sent back home, the shortage of unskilled laborers would force employers to compete/attract workers with higher wages. Let the market sort it out. If you think you deserve a higher wage just because you need more money, you need a better understanding of economics. Don't push for a higher minimum wage. Push your elected officials to secure the border. Then learn a skill,
The illegal migrant and cheap labor issue is going to get worse pretty quick. The new administration has already publicly made a point that they intend to reduced the average 13 year process to become a citizen to 8 years. And plan to enable ALL illegal aliens to apply and be processed. Probably going to be the one time a government program actually gets streamlined and more effective :(
 
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