Questions for you Kinder folk out there

Discussion in 'Goats' started by apirlawz, Apr 21, 2005.

  1. apirlawz

    apirlawz playing in the dirt

    Messages:
    281
    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Northern MN
    Hi all,

    After a couple years of "goat study", I'm finally taking the plunge this year. I will be getting (cross your fingers, they're still "in vitro"!) a pair of Saanen doelings. I'd also decided on Kinders (higher milkfat, ideal temperment and size, good feed conversion ratio, etc.) to balance out the Saanen's low milkfat and "skinny" carcass.

    I've been able to find tons of information about Saanens from both books and breeders. But dealing with a somewhat recently developed breed, I'm having a harder time getting an idea of what the Kinder norms are. So, here goes!

    1) How long is an average lactation period for a Kinder? How many pounds over this period? What % fat and protien?

    2) At what age do you butcher culls? What do they weigh at that time? I'm asking this question specifically from the feed conversion point of view, ie - at what age does the feed conversion rate start to taper off?

    3) What are the average litter sizes you've seen? How do they fluctuate with age?

    4) Aside from registration requirements, what are the advantages/disadvantages in starting with a generation 4-5 rather than earlier generations?

    5) I know that Kinders have their own have their own registry, but are they registerable with, say, the ADGA as an experimental? The actual "paper" end of this is the last thing I've started looking into, so I'm still a bit clueless on this aspect. From what I could find with the Kinder registry (the name is escaping me right now!) I'd have to be a member to be able to research bloodlines, etc. Is this the case, or can I find this information compiled somewhere before becoming a member?

    These are very general questions, of course, and I know everyone is going to have different answers, but that's exactly what I'm hoping for...to get something of a "cross section" from folks with real hands-on experience.

    Oh yeah...anyone know of a good Kinder breeder in the upper Midwest? ;)

    Thanks!
     
  2. debitaber

    debitaber Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,061
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2003
    I thought kinder goats were are cross between a nubian, and a pygmy.
     

  3. apirlawz

    apirlawz playing in the dirt

    Messages:
    281
    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Northern MN
    Yup, that's how it all starts...the first generation kinder comes from this cross. From there, a first gen doe is bred to a 1-5 gen buck for a 2nd gen, 2nd gen doe and 2-5th gen buck for the 3rd gen, and so on. Kinders are "registerable" at the 5th generation. There is some form of documentation for the prior generations, but I'm not too up on the details. Of course, all of this is contingent on the 1st gen kid coming from registered parents, usually a nubian doe and a pygmy buck.

    I'm sure it's a bit more complicated, but again, the paperwork end of it is the part I'm still sketchy on!
     
  4. Freeholder

    Freeholder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,665
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2004
    I'm not going to try to answer all your questions right now (it's after midnight, and I should have been in bed a long time ago!), but will answer one. The ADGA won't register any goat with pygmy blood in it. Period. They also won't register goats with Boer, and I assume also no Kiko, Spanish meat goat, etc. They strictly register dairy goats (American Dairy Goat Association). So, they don't register Kinder goats. But there is a Kinder Goat Breeders Association -- have you been to the website for it? And I saw that you posted your message on the Kinder goat yahoo list also -- if you are patient for a day or two, I'm sure the folks there will be able to answer your questions, and do it gladly! I haven't had my Kinders long enough to really definitively answer all of your questions, but I can say that I am very happy with my Kinder goats. The only reasons I would want any other breed are 1. my grandmother has a hard time with highfat milk (so I'm milking an Oberhasli/Boer cross doe for milk for Grandma), and 2. if I was doing a lot of serious goatpacking, I might want larger goats for packing.

    Other than that, I think the Kinders are great. And, no, I don't have any for sale, I just like them!

    Kathleen
     
  5. apirlawz

    apirlawz playing in the dirt

    Messages:
    281
    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Northern MN
    I'd finally "self-contolled" myself into thinking I'd only stick with one breed (Saanens) instead of both Saanens and Kinders like I really wanted. So, thanks for the response, Kathleen! It's the least you could do, since you were the one who snuck the Kinder bug back in my brain...ya gotta watch her! :grump: :p

    I was able to find the new KGBA site (kindergoats.com) and access a lot of the info that was eluding me from the old (?) aol site. I could not believe the milk records!! Granted, they were only listing star milkers, but holy moses! I was expecting no more than 700-800 lbs and/or a 200 day lactation, max! Those little buggers were definitely holding their own...and with a much higher milkfat percentage!

    I question what kind of a market there would be for them in my area, should I decide to breed, or even go nuts and start from scratch to develop my own line. However, I really don't think I'd consider selling any for years, I have a thing about pawning off my "learning experiences" on an unsuspecting public. I'd feel a little slimy about selling until I felt I really knew what I was doing. But wow, the more I learn about them, the more interesting it all seems, especially with such a new and versitile breed!
     
  6. dale anne

    dale anne Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    329
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Location:
    arkansas
    Howdy april....i just had my first generation kinders[2 bucks] I made the mistake of not having the parents registered...so I will be using these boys to pack and pull carts to usearound the farm as working goats....The generations 1-4 get a paper of merrit...generation 5 can be registered..I am now looking for a reg nubian doe and a reg pygmy buck...I have went and looked up all the sanctions so that i may start my own kinder herd...the closets place to buy breeding stock kinders is in maryland and I am not even gonna tell you the prices cause ya would fall over dead!...kinder goat breeder assn..try that to get info...I believe they have a website...my boys are BEAUTIFUL!...shame I didnt have reg parents...wont make this mistake again I asure you....I have tons of folks already asking me to sell these boys...no way!....I looked at the standards and if reg I sure could have shown them both....good luck and let me know how ya make out...dale anne
     
  7. Gailann Schrader

    Gailann Schrader Green Woman

    Messages:
    1,957
    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    Location:
    Indiana - North Central
    I have two unregistered Kinder does that I will probably have to breed back to a Pygmy to see how they will freshen and kid - registered animals are difficult to obtain for reasonable prices. I also was interested in them for their dual purpose. Seems like a neat cross... I plan to have my two does bred this Fall. Past that I cannot say. However, these two does are very healthy, hardy, and friendly. Quiet also. Faun (the brown one) is very personable. Belle (black) was a "given to me" that is also a Kinder. They are smaller animals (3/4 size) and I think you would have fun with them. Good Luck!
     
  8. apirlawz

    apirlawz playing in the dirt

    Messages:
    281
    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Northern MN
    Thanks for the responses. That really does amaze me that they seem to have such a easygoing, quiet temperment, considering the more vocal and independant (?) nubian temperment. Oh well, I'll take it! ;)

    Dale ann, have you looked for breeders in Missouri? I've seen quite a few of them listed there. Of course, not sure what they would have available.
     
  9. Freeholder

    Freeholder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,665
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2004
    They aren't *always* quiet. When I bought mine, I got one milker out of a pen of three, and when we got home, she was NOT happy to find herself the only adult goat! She screamed at me for several days -- begging me to stay in the goat pen with her! She got over it, though she did cry after I left to go up to the house after chores each day. Now she's not even doing that so much. But if you buy adults, I would suggest getting two does that have been companions to one another. If you can breed your own on site, they won't ever have to go through that stress, and should be fairly quiet. They do talk to me when I go outside, though.

    My milker only gives about two quarts of milk a day, tapering off to a quart a day through the winter. She could have milked through, though, without being bred last fall. In other words, she wasn't just drying off, her lactation was holding steady. The mother of my young buck milks a little better at three quarts a day. I'm not sorry that I don't have any of the really high milkers. My Ober X Boer doe milks over a gallon a day, and with carpal tunnel, that amount of milking causes problems. Right now she's the only one in milk so it's bearable. When the Kinder doe is in milk again, hopefully it won't get a lot worse, because she's such an easy milker. But there will be times when I'll have four does in milk (I'm working on getting the yearling does bred for fall kidding, so will have a steadier supply of milk through the winter), and I'm not sure my hands will take that. I'll definitely be selecting for easy milking characteristics.

    Kathleen
     
  10. dale anne

    dale anne Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    329
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2004
    Location:
    arkansas
    howdy april no i didnt.....called the extension office and the kinder assn and no one mentioned missouri to me....do ya have the links I could look at for the info...thanks dale anne
     
  11. apirlawz

    apirlawz playing in the dirt

    Messages:
    281
    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Northern MN

    This is from the KGBA (heehee!! love that!) site - area 3 breeders. Basically, the midwest.

    http://members.aol.com/kgbassn/area3.htm

    The Guthrie Goat Farm in northern Alabama

    http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Park/4786/


    There was another site, but I can't remember where to save my life...it'll come to me...at roughly 2:30 am... :p
     
  12. sheep tamer

    sheep tamer former HT member

    Messages:
    276
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    I have to admit we are getting more interested
    in the smaller breeds, and are considering the
    mini-Nubians, Oberhasli's, and Kinders...We have
    a reg. Nubian Doe who is an excellent Milker/mom
    but is as big as a horse, and I'm wanting her off
    the place in the near future.

    My question is if you can start a herd of Kinder
    goats using semen from a reg. Pygmy buck,
    any one done this? Otherwise, I guess we'd
    need to find one out our way.

    So, if you've got a reg. buck for sale and can
    either ship or meet part way, please pm me...
    we're in the Kalispell, MT area. TIA
     
  13. Freeholder

    Freeholder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,665
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2004
    The best thing for you to do is get on the Kinder goat list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KinderGoats/?yguid=109437082 and ask Pat Showalter your question about using AI to start your Kinder goat line. Have you looked on-line for Pygmy breeders in your area? The thing is, if you want to start a good Kinder line, you need to start with the best Nubian does and Pygmy bucks that you can get ahold of. Make sure the udders are well attached, teats are a good size for hand milking, and so on. The buck should come from a line that milks well (I know Pygmies aren't usually milked, but if a doe normally has triplets or better and feeds them all herself, she's probably a pretty good milker).

    Kathleen
     
  14. apirlawz

    apirlawz playing in the dirt

    Messages:
    281
    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Northern MN
    Also, I think on the Breeder listing on the KGBA site, they specify those who have semen available...at least I think it was there... but regardless, it should give you a few good leads.
     
  15. sheep tamer

    sheep tamer former HT member

    Messages:
    276
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Thought I'd bump this thread back into
    the spotlight. :) We really want to use
    our nubians does to start a kinder herd
    and are having no luck finding anyone
    with a reg. pygmy buck near enough
    for us to afford the purchase or service.

    Maybe that elusive breeder has been
    busy with kidding lately and will come
    to our aid. <I hope>