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Regarding pit bulls...

Is a game pit bull good for anything besides fighting?

You say pit bulls are not good as pets or housedogs because they will escape the yard and kill the first animal they see. Can you train a game dog to be controllable, ie to walk on a leash in public without going after other dogs?

If not, the only use for them I can think of is if you live out in a very remote wilderness, have no other animals of your own, and want to keep wild animals off your property. It seems you couldn't even use game pits as hog or hunting dogs because they would want to kill each other rather than go after the quarry.

Do males and females fight each other? How do you breed them without a bloody mess?

I'm not thinking of getting one, mind you. I am just curious because I have been around a lot of pitbulls, and the vast majority of them have been friendly, compliant, controllable, and not overly animal aggressive. In fact, I have known some who seemed to be unusually tolerant of other dogs directing aggresion at them. I have been around police, sport and hunting dogs which have extreme drive but are trainable to the point of being under control. I would never recommend one of these dogs to an inexperienced or weak-willed owner, however.

I am aware of a program called LawDogs which trains pit bulls as sniffer dogs and they are reported to be very good at it. Whether these are gamebred dogs I don't know.

If a truly game dog cannot be used for anything other than fighting, I could understand why you would cull those that you don't want, as they likely would not fit in to any family or household as a pet. There are some shelters that automatically euthanize all pit bulls coming in for this very reason.

Having very little personal experience with game pit bulls, I am curious as to what makes them tick.

Another question having nothing to do with this: do you own any other breeds? If so, which ones and why do you like them?
 

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Is a game pit bull good for anything besides fighting?

Using the term "game" implies they are TRAINED for fighting.
A Pit Bull is like any other breed in that they are all individuals and how they behave is largely determined by how they are raised.
Anyone who says "They all" do this or do that shows little knowledge of reality
Pit Bulls can be VERY good pets if treated right
 

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Bearfootfarm said:
Using the term "game" implies they are TRAINED for fighting.
No, I'm not implying that. I use the term "game" to mean a biologically, genetically hard-wired compulsion to fight that occurs with or without training. I think Pancho knows what I mean. Not all pit bulls are truly game; I'm asking about the ones that are.
 

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Wolf Flower said:
Regarding pit bulls...

Is a game pit bull good for anything besides fighting?

You say pit bulls are not good as pets or housedogs because they will escape the yard and kill the first animal they see. Can you train a game dog to be controllable, ie to walk on a leash in public without going after other dogs?

If not, the only use for them I can think of is if you live out in a very remote wilderness, have no other animals of your own, and want to keep wild animals off your property. It seems you couldn't even use game pits as hog or hunting dogs because they would want to kill each other rather than go after the quarry.

Do males and females fight each other? How do you breed them without a bloody mess?

I'm not thinking of getting one, mind you. I am just curious because I have been around a lot of pitbulls, and the vast majority of them have been friendly, compliant, controllable, and not overly animal aggressive. In fact, I have known some who seemed to be unusually tolerant of other dogs directing aggresion at them. I have been around police, sport and hunting dogs which have extreme drive but are trainable to the point of being under control. I would never recommend one of these dogs to an inexperienced or weak-willed owner, however.

I am aware of a program called LawDogs which trains pit bulls as sniffer dogs and they are reported to be very good at it. Whether these are gamebred dogs I don't know.

If a truly game dog cannot be used for anything other than fighting, I could understand why you would cull those that you don't want, as they likely would not fit in to any family or household as a pet. There are some shelters that automatically euthanize all pit bulls coming in for this very reason.

Having very little personal experience with game pit bulls, I am curious as to what makes them tick.

Another question having nothing to do with this: do you own any other breeds? If so, which ones and why do you like them?

No, a game pit bull has many uses beside fighting. They make great catch dogs and great weight pulling dogs and can be trained for many other jobs.
Not every pit bull is game. It is really a small percentage that is game. That is the reason there are very few fighting dogs. The pit bull is more likely to be game than any other breed but just being a pit bull does not make it a game dog. Even if you breed two very game dogs together that does not guarantee there will be a single game pup. Then sometimes it is possible to breed two curs together and get a game dog.

A pit bull can be trained to do anything any other breed does. They are an aggressive breed. Many pit bulls are walked on leashs daily with no problems. With proper training they can be around other dogs on a leash. What causes much of the problem is when the dogs are left alone. The owner cannot be with the dog all the time. When the owner isn't around, being as the breed is an aggressive breed, there is a strong likelyhood they will do what they were bred for, that is attacting any animal. Very few times will they attact a human and are more likely to kill other animals. This is the rerason they have to be well contained.

I will agree completely there is not a place in the city for a pit bull. Too many chances for accidents to happen. As far as catch dogs they are great.
When they are used as catch dogs they are usually used by their selves or sometimes as a pair. There isn't much reason to use more than that as they would tend to fight and there isn't many animals that can stand up to a single dog and a pair can catch almost any animal in the U.S.

A fighting dog can be female or male. When a contract to match is signed the sex of the dog is never stated, nor the breed. The weight and the time are the most important things on the contract. Sometimes the dogs will be named but not necessarily. Males and females are matched against each other. Sometimes it is very hard to breed them and sometimes it is easy. When an aggressive female is bred it is possible to use a breeding chute. This keeps the female from attacting the male. It is used by many breeders of other dogs and other animals also.

The pit bull can be almost any size. color, and shape. What many think are pit bulls are not. There are many different breeds that are mistakenly called pit bulls. There are many crossbreds.

The people who raise fighting dogs do not usually sell to the public. That would defeat their purpose as they spend a lot of time and money breeding a dog they think will be a winner. It is not a very good idea to sell your competition a dog of your breeding as you would then be competing against yourself. It is impossible to tell if a dog is a fighting dog before it is mature. If the dog fighter sell as puppies there is no guarantee that they will not be selling the best dog of the litter. For this reason they usually keep all of the dogs until they can see if they are worth keeping.

The majority of pit bulls you see are those especially bred for the pet trade. They are not picked for any quality other than breed. There is no way to know if the puppy you are buying will be pet quality or grow into a game dog. Sometimes a person learns to late.

Just my opinion here but I do not think the pit bull should be considered when looking for a pet or a house dog. There is just too much work that needs to be done and the risks are just too high.

At this time I do not own a single pit bull. There might be a few that has my name on the registration papers but I do not own them. I now own a border collie. I have owned everything from a cockerspaniel to hunting hounds.
Years ago I quit breeding pit bulls as I could see the quality of the dogs going down very fast. Also saw how the owners was changing from men who knew the breed to women and kids that knew nothing about the breed.
There is too much risk today to own a pit bull. The benefits do not outweigh the cost.

If there is any questions I will try to answer them. I just recieved a few chapters to a book a friend of mine is thinking of publishing about the pit bull. He published a couple in the 80's but, like me, he has been disappointed in the way the breed has declined. It is very interesting reading but don't think he will ever publish it.
 

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pancho said:
Not every pit bull is game. It is really a small percentage that is game. That is the reason there are very few fighting dogs.
Right. Can those few individuals do other jobs besides fighting, and can they be trained NOT to fight? Or is the inborn drive just too powerful to control? Just to clarify. The pit bulls I have seen have been trained to do many things, but they were not game fighting dogs.

Also I was curious about something you said in another post. You said that when fighting dogs get older and have been matched to their limit, they don't care about anything and see humans as food providers only. Can you explain what you mean by that? Are you saying that they do not bond with people after a certain point?
 

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I used to breed and raise pit bulls for hog catching. Keep in mind, once they've experienced catching a hog..they constantly want to catch them. Mine were raised around cats and never did catch or try to kill them even after they were hog dogs. They would, however, catch and kill any cats that were not mine. They knew the difference. They were excellent with kids but did not like strangers but after a proper introduction they were fine. The mother dog would teach her young not to go to the bathroom in the house by grabbing the offending pup and hauling the pup outside but not before punishing the said pup. All 8 pups learned to be housebroken in 4 weeks! They were 3 months old. I never had to train the pups to be housebroke. I taught them to stop biting my hands by 8 weeks old. They were registered dogs but not ADBA registered though....they had some ancestors that were ADBA registered and were fighters. Keep in mind, a pit that has caught hogs will attempt to catch your lawn mower!! :baby04: Had to pen them up before mowing the yard. I've considered getting back into pit bulls..don't have one now.
 

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Wolf Flower said:
Right. Can those few individuals do other jobs besides fighting, and can they be trained NOT to fight? Or is the inborn drive just too powerful to control? Just to clarify. The pit bulls I have seen have been trained to do many things, but they were not game fighting dogs.

Also I was curious about something you said in another post. You said that when fighting dogs get older and have been matched to their limit, they don't care about anything and see humans as food providers only. Can you explain what you mean by that? Are you saying that they do not bond with people after a certain point?
Most fighting dogs are very easy to control around other dogs, as long as they are on a leash. They can be used for most any job as long as they are not released. A dog cannot be trained to fight or not to fight. That is an inborn trait. They can be controlled. No one wants a fighting dog that cannot be controlled. It will wear itself out before the match and would be a sure looser. Most people do not know if their pit bull is game or not. There is only one way to tell and that is against the law. It is possible for a person to have a game dog and never know as long as they contain and control the dog as they should.

There are many pit bulls that are fight crazy. They act very aggressive and are hard to handle but if given the chance are not game. They will fight only for a few minutes then quit. This is the majority of pit bulls today.

Many times, back when dog fighting was legal, a person would try out a dog and decide it wasn't what they wanted. The dog was sold to another who would try out the dog. It might work very good for the reason that person bought it for. Some people were in it, really just about all, for the money and gambling. If a dog won a few matches there wasn't that many who would match against it. For the gambler the dog was worthless. They would then sell the dog to another who would match the dog a few times. Back in the old days it wasn't unusual for a person to match a dog several dozens of times. If they lost, many times, they were picked up and sold to another person who would them match the dog into something he could handle. Not all dogs were killed in the pit, really very few. Not all were culled either. Just because your dog lost to a better dog did not mean it was not a good dog itself.
When such a dog begins to age they may have changed hands many times. They are not HA but having been through so many different hands they do not form a bond with their owners. They change hands before that is possible. Their job is to fight, they are good at their job or they would not be an older dog. They live to do their job. In some cases it is possible for a dog to loose interest in life unless they are rolled occassionally. After a roll they will come alive and be a completely different dog until a certain amount of time when they become bored.
Not all dogs are that way. It will depend on how hard the matches are.

I can tell you about a dog that won 7 matches. The dog didn't have a single tooth in his head but he was a very game dog and won 7 in a row. He was sold several times and matched by several people. He was kept chained inside an enclosure for most of his life. As he got older he was completely uninterested in anything. He could be put on a treadmill and he would run until you took him off as he knew he was being conditioned for a match. On the way to the match and up until the time he was released you would think he was half asleep. He then came alive. He won a lot of money for his owners. After the match he acted like he was half asleep again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks, Pancho. This is a very interesting facet of canine behavior.

I have to say, though... I do feel sorry for the fighting dogs. It sounds like they are not valued or cared for in and of themselves, but only for the money they bring. From what I have seen about pit bulls, they do seem to love human companionship, and not being able to bond with anyone shows in the dog losing interest in life. The only thing they have left to live for is fighting and it sounds like that is the only thing they are allowed to do, and even that could be few and far between.

If a dog is game and yet not "fight crazy" and uncontrollable, I can see a lot of uses for that animal. Thanks for clarifying that. I think I understand now what you mean when you say the breed has declined in quality.
 

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Depends if they come from a fighting line or a pet line. I brought home a 2 month old pup from a private breeder for a pet. The pup took it upon herself to guard my free roaming large livestock and poultry. She's been on the job for 5 years.

I have fencing surrounding my entire acreage. If I open the gate for some reason, I don't have to be concerned about her running out. She won't go anywhere. Fabulous dog, exceptionally smart, and learns quickly.

The American Pit Bull Terrier is the only breed of dog I'll keep. I'm planning on hitching her to a cart this winter, when the weather cools down, so we can go for drives.

I live in a Pit Bull friendly town. They're common pets here.
 

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Wolf Flower said:
Thanks, Pancho. This is a very interesting facet of canine behavior.

I have to say, though... I do feel sorry for the fighting dogs. It sounds like they are not valued or cared for in and of themselves, but only for the money they bring. From what I have seen about pit bulls, they do seem to love human companionship, and not being able to bond with anyone shows in the dog losing interest in life. The only thing they have left to live for is fighting and it sounds like that is the only thing they are allowed to do, and even that could be few and far between.

If a dog is game and yet not "fight crazy" and uncontrollable, I can see a lot of uses for that animal. Thanks for clarifying that. I think I understand now what you mean when you say the breed has declined in quality.
The life of a fighting dog was no picnic no matter what some may try to tell you. Fighting dogs was a way to make money. Years ago it was the only source of income for many families. Some fighting dogs were members of the family but that is a minority.

The pit bull can be used for many different jobs. Being a pet is not one of the best choices. Even after all of these years with the breed it is hard for me to understand why a person would choose one for a house dog or a pet. So many other breeds could be just as good without the problems.
There are many that will disagree and say they make the best house dogs and pets. We read about them every day when they make the newspapers.
 

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Before anyone takes Pancho's beliefs as the gospel I would suggest checking out this link:
http://www.animalfarmfoundation.org/index.php

Dog fighting as someone's sole income?????? Absurd! That's like saying most people gamble for a living successfully! I would like to know of ONE single person instrumental in the American Pit Bull Terrier breed who made their fortune and raised their family just on the proceeds of dog fighting! Or even one person not instrumental who did, a documented case. Many families? Hogwash!
People make money BREEDING and SELLING dogs, not fighting them!
A dog, as any animal, is the product of it's environment and breeding, it's rarely just one or the other. If you raise a "game" bred APBT to be obedient and well-behaved, you will have an obedient well-behaved dog. If you foster a "game" bred APBT's natural instinct towards dog-aggression you are going to have a dog aggressive ABPT! You reap what you sow!
Most of the "pit bulls" in the media are not registered American Pit Bull Terriers, or American Staffordshire Terriers, they are mix breeds who have "bully" features! It gets more news play and gasps when an attack is attributed to a "pit bull" than to a mutt!
For every bad news story I bet there is an equally heart-warming one attributed to a "pit bull"......but those are not as exciting or attention getting!
 

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It really don't matter to me if anyone believes a word I say. The majority of people with pit bulls nowdays get their info from books, if they have any knowledge at all. I lived the life, no books needed. I have helped research a couple and me and my dogs are in a few.

Just a few of the men who made their living with the dogs.

Earl Tudor, bred, raised, and matched some of the best. He made his living mainly from the dogs with some added by theft and bootlegging.

Pete Sparks, well known dog man. The only job he ever had besides raising and matching dogs as a carnie, sometimes ran a still.

Maurice Carver. Besides raising and matching dogs was a part time border guard and pimp.

John Pritchard. One of the first that sold dogs to anyone with the money to buy them.

Don Maloney. Spent so much time with the dogs that his wife found a new man. Don shot her and her friend and her friend shot and killed Don.

That is 5 well known dog men from the past who made their living mostly from the dogs. There were many more who traveled around with their match dog.

Even today there are still a few that make their living matching dogs. One was shot and killed just last year in Texas. He was being robbed after winning a $100,000 match. He wouldn't tell the robbers where the money was and he was shot.
 

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I gotta go with Pancho with this...I don't have the experience with the dog fighting people, but I've seen it with the chicken fighting...There are people who made livings doing nothing else.

Additionally, it ain't all about the breeding and training of a dog, they still have their natural tendencies...For example, you cannot raise and train the running instinct out of a greyhound, it just won't happen.
 

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I'll throw in that I, too, disagree STRONGLY with Pancho. I think pit bulls make great pets for people prepared to deal with the possibility (and likelihood in many lines) of dog aggression, their need for exercise, and the nasty public perception. They're fun draft dogs, most of the ones I know owned by responsible owners are good with kids, and they're a blast to train for dog sports like agility and obedience- the good ones really are very responsive to their owners and while they CAN be stubborn, if you are willing to use their drives (particularly tug and ball drive) to train, the results can be amazing- look at Diane Jessup's Lawdogs project!

For a view of this end of the spectrum, check out www.BadRap.org - it's a large pit bull rescue group in San Francisco that has been amazingly successful.

Will I ever own a pit? No. I can't deal with the dog aggression, because I like having multiple dogs- this is a dealbreaker for me. (I also prefer dogs with coat.) But I think they CAN make great pets for the right people- the problem is finding those right people who will do right by the dog, and then convincing them that this is not a child and dog eating monster with locking jaws, a brain that swells and makes them 'turn' and other crap like that.
 

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Falling back on living the life and knowing from experience...ah, like I have never heard that before...how nice to be speaking of something that is illegal so you can justify using vague references and alluding to "secret" things! You must be an old fart to have lived THE life, cause now-a-days the life means being a criminal and having to hide!
That is 5 well known dog men from the past who made their living mostly from the dogs. There were many more who traveled around with their match dog.
See, you have digressed....you now say mostly where before you asserted:
Years ago it was the only source of income for many families.
People make money BREEDING and SELLING dogs, not fighting them! PERIOD!

By living do you mean barely scraping by, or do you mean have enough to pay the bills and enjoy life....that's what I mean by living, so maybe we have differing views on that....

Every person you mentioned made his money selling the dogs he bred, not just on fighting them. And all of them are mentioned in many books, how clever to leave Colby off of John Pritchard....yes, one of the biggest peddlers of all time, yet one of the most enduring and influential lines out there, still true to type and temperment today. And no mention of Tom Garner....he's one of the most well known modern dogmen.


I asked for ONE documented case of the sole income being on JUST the matching of dogs! Because your contention is MANY families used dog fighting as their sole income, they relied on no other source....breeding and selling would be other sources!

And that case in Texas:
Hmmm, 100 grand, seems I heard it was anywhere from that to 2500 to nothing and that they never recovered any money and his family was destitute after his death.....that's not making a living fighting dogs!
And what man puts ANY amount of money over his family, who was present during all of this from the accounts I read??? An idiot, not a smart person. So, his "living" was dying....real smart, in the ground, dogs in the ground and family broke....some living.

Reptyle: Pancho said they made their sole living matching dogs, not breeding, not selling, just matching! Even in the day there were never so many "big money" matches that a person could make a living JUST MATCHING DOGS and not doing something else, they would have had to have had a whole stable of winning dogs to do that. And it's insane to believe you can take a dog and match it repeatedly with no appreciable break and win more than a couple by luck....I never said there weren't people who weren't devoted to the dogs....there are still those out there, not many but a few. They make their money breeding and selling dogs, doing dogs 24/7 and nothing else. Tom Garner is an example, dogs are his life and it's a fairly comfortable one from what I can tell, but he didn't get there soley on match money!

I didn't say you could train the instinct out of them, I said you could train them to be well-behaved and obedient.....there is a difference. You can train the Greyhound to heel and sit and to return when running....but if all you do is let it run, then all you will have is a dog who runs....if you encourage them to attack other dogs they will, without fail, but you can manage that tendency with training.
 

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5webbkids said:
Falling back on living the life and knowing from experience...ah, like I have never heard that before...how nice to be speaking of something that is illegal so you can justify using vague references and alluding to "secret" things! You must be an old fart to have lived THE life, cause now-a-days the life means being a criminal and having to hide!

See, you have digressed....you now say mostly where before you asserted:

People make money BREEDING and SELLING dogs, not fighting them! PERIOD!

By living do you mean barely scraping by, or do you mean have enough to pay the bills and enjoy life....that's what I mean by living, so maybe we have differing views on that....

Every person you mentioned made his money selling the dogs he bred, not just on fighting them. And all of them are mentioned in many books, how clever to leave Colby off of John Pritchard....yes, one of the biggest peddlers of all time, yet one of the most enduring and influential lines out there, still true to type and temperment today. And no mention of Tom Garner....he's one of the most well known modern dogmen.


I asked for ONE documented case of the sole income being on JUST the matching of dogs! Because your contention is MANY families used dog fighting as their sole income, they relied on no other source....breeding and selling would be other sources!

And that case in Texas:
Hmmm, 100 grand, seems I heard it was anywhere from that to 2500 to nothing and that they never recovered any money and his family was destitute after his death.....that's not making a living fighting dogs!
And what man puts ANY amount of money over his family, who was present during all of this from the accounts I read??? An idiot, not a smart person. So, his "living" was dying....real smart, in the ground, dogs in the ground and family broke....some living.

Reptyle: Pancho said they made their sole living matching dogs, not breeding, not selling, just matching! Even in the day there were never so many "big money" matches that a person could make a living JUST MATCHING DOGS and not doing something else, they would have had to have had a whole stable of winning dogs to do that. And it's insane to believe you can take a dog and match it repeatedly with no appreciable break and win more than a couple by luck....I never said there weren't people who weren't devoted to the dogs....there are still those out there, not many but a few. They make their money breeding and selling dogs, doing dogs 24/7 and nothing else. Tom Garner is an example, dogs are his life and it's a fairly comfortable one from what I can tell, but he didn't get there soley on match money!

I didn't say you could train the instinct out of them, I said you could train them to be well-behaved and obedient.....there is a difference. You can train the Greyhound to heel and sit and to return when running....but if all you do is let it run, then all you will have is a dog who runs....if you encourage them to attack other dogs they will, without fail, but you can manage that tendency with training.
Yes, you could say I am an old fart, I have over 50 years experience with pit bulls, during which I have breed, trained, showed, and judged them. If you were around the shows years ago you may have seen me judge but for some reason I don't think you have been around that long. I was working with the dogs when matching was legal. One of the more famous pit bull judges of today was the handeler for one of my dogs when it won its championship and its grand championship. All done legally. Also have champions in both UKC and ADBA conformation.

The men I mentioned are dead, I would rather not give out names of people still in the sport. Colby was one of the first dog peddlers. He also bred some very good dogs. To bad the bloodline has deterioated so much, now most people will not take a Colby dog if it was free. Tom Garner used to be well known, now he is well known as a puppy peddler. No one even takes him seriously nowdays and his dogs are not much in demand by anyone besides a novice. Check out his website and his forum.

There is very few secrets about the pit bulls. Plenty of media exposure has opened them up quite a bit. Just not much history of the breed is in the media.
Back years ago the top price for a match dog was $5, pups were a few dollars, stud fee to the best in the U.S. was $10 at the most. Still think they made a lot of money selling them? Winning just one match would bring in more cash than they would make all year breeding and selling dogs. Look at any of the old mags. Plenty of adds selling dogs for $5 and quite a few adds for matching dogs at much higher prices. But then you would have to study the history to know that and would had to have seen some of the old mags. For some reason I don't think you can even buy one today since to subscribe to most you have to be recommended.
For a more modern day look at the price of some dogs, take for example Gr. Ch. 35, called that because that was the price of the dog, $35. He was an 8 time winner making quite a bit more for his owner in winnings than the cost of the dog.

The murder in Texas was after a match for $100,000. The family is not destitute but his wife moved. Most of the dogs were destroyed, over 300 of them. His wife took some of the top dogs with her. The man bled to death, the robbers had already left before he died. Anyone who knew much about the dogs knew Tom and where he made his money.

Since you think highly of the Colbys, check out the number of times Pinscher was matched and his record is only for contract matches, not rolls. Also look at the number of thimes Gr. Ch. White Rock won in a single year, 5. Tudor's Black Jack, a dog that almost everyone has heard of was a 16 times winner.

From the people you mention and your speach you are one of the newer type pit bull groupie. Probably a female and probably under 20. You do not know much about the history of the dogs. It would help you a great deal if you would read a few history books on the breed, those wrote by the people that were there, not some pet dog people. If you do not know any I will be glad to point you in the right direction. I would ask you to read a few of the mags to day but, like I said, I don't think you could even buy one.
 

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5webbkids said:
Falling back on living the life and knowing from experience...ah, like I have never heard that before...how nice to be speaking of something that is illegal so you can justify using vague references and alluding to "secret" things!
I don't think Pancho has been vague at all. He's been very honest and up front about what he knows, and the experiences he's had. I for one appreciate his candor, as I've only heard anectdote, rhetoric, and propaganda about fighting dogs--never spoken to anyone who was directly involved with them and willing to talk about it.

People make money BREEDING and SELLING dogs, not fighting them! PERIOD!
What is your point? Pancho has answered some questions in very satisfying detail, and I don't know what he would have to gain by lying.
 

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I gotta call BS on some things Pancho.
Not a single one of the men you mentioned was what you might call wealthy or even upper middle class economically, the best any of them did was barely middle class. mostly because the money wasn't that big back then.
"game bred" pits (in the sense of fighting dogs) are not generally great catchdogs their naturally high dog aggression makes them as likely to grab your curdog as the hog.
dog fighting isn't the only way to prove a dogs gameness (the refusal to quit a fight). i have seen a pair of hogdog bred pits pried off the ears of a hog after being beaten to death on trees, not unconscious, not almost dead but no $#!+ dead & still hanging on the ears. in fact i have seen quite a few die in the course of hunting from injuries & refusing to quit. unfortunately proving a dog truly game usually results in it's death.
opposite sex fighting was extremely rare, not because the ***** might try to fight in breeding but because a dog that got the idea fighting bitches was okay would now be difficult to breed and would be exposed to a lot more bitches than the ***** will to dogs. easiest to avoid the problem by not letting dogs & bitches fight. now two bitches could put on a heck of a fight same as two dogs.
Pancho & Reptyle both
although most people aren't up to the task w/ such driven dogs as pits, a dog can be trained to completely ignore its instincts & drives. Pavlov proved it by teaching his dogs to starve themselves to death.
other than those things Pancho is pretty much on the money.
 

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Pops2 said:
I gotta call BS on some things Pancho.
Not a single one of the men you mentioned was what you might call wealthy or even upper middle class economically, the best any of them did was barely middle class. mostly because the money wasn't that big back then.
"game bred" pits (in the sense of fighting dogs) are not generally great catchdogs their naturally high dog aggression makes them as likely to grab your curdog as the hog.
dog fighting isn't the only way to prove a dogs gameness (the refusal to quit a fight). i have seen a pair of hogdog bred pits pried off the ears of a hog after being beaten to death on trees, not unconscious, not almost dead but no $#!+ dead & still hanging on the ears. in fact i have seen quite a few die in the course of hunting from injuries & refusing to quit. unfortunately proving a dog truly game usually results in it's death.
opposite sex fighting was extremely rare, not because the ***** might try to fight in breeding but because a dog that got the idea fighting bitches was okay would now be difficult to breed and would be exposed to a lot more bitches than the ***** will to dogs. easiest to avoid the problem by not letting dogs & bitches fight. now two bitches could put on a heck of a fight same as two dogs.
Pancho & Reptyle both
although most people aren't up to the task w/ such driven dogs as pits, a dog can be trained to completely ignore its instincts & drives. Pavlov proved it by teaching his dogs to starve themselves to death.
other than those things Pancho is pretty much on the money.

Pops, many years ago most people were not very well off. Remember the Depression and the Dust Bowl? Not a lot of money to be found back then. A lot of the Irish immigrants used their dogs to provide money for food for their families. People will gamble even when there is very little money to be found.

Ask any man who has been in the game. Catching a hog does not in any way prove gameness. There is only one way to do it. Always was that way and always will be. Those who do not have the experience will try to tell people different but that is from lack of experience in the pit.

If you have ever seen a contract you will notice there isn't a place for sex of the dog. There is a place for weight, date, and time. You can use any sex you like, as a matter of fact you do not even have to use a dog. The contract usually states a weight but not a species. There were quite a few females who made their championship, check out the record of Ch. Honeybunch. Also a few other females like Ch. Catfish, Ch. Bonnie, Ch. Whiskey, Ch. Goldie, Ch. Little Bit, and Gr. Ch. Shady Lady, Gr. Ch. Molly Bee.
 

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When I was younger I thought gameness existed, now that I am older I am a bit smarter. I KNOW I will be told I have never seen that elusive game dog...lmao. When I read this stuff I think I am reading a Richard Stratton book all over again. Gameness in the sense that dog fighters use is simply a fantasy trait that is used to try to glorify the "sport" since its only possible for a fighting dog to possess that "special" trait. When I was dumber, I entertained myself with that fantasy, now I smartened up a bit.
 
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