Wait till you try and get your prescriptions filled...I'm thinking meds will cost way way way more. Medicare Medicaid will start not covering medications made by the companies being sued. ?

 

Well, I encourage people not to use that stuff (oxycontin) except for temporary severe pain or terminal illness.
I've never taken it myself but have seen the effects of that poison, it's nothing but hillbilly heroin.

 

I have taken it for chronic back pain would take it for months at a time then like during winter when strenuous activity lessens quit taking it for months then when summer returns go back to taking it. no addiction problems.
What really ticks my goat is the way they include all the heroin over doses in with the legal pill over doses to inflate the numbers. Now theres no relief for those who suffer from chronic pain all because of a bunch of addicts. I also oppose all the tax dollars going to "cure" these drug addicts because just like an alcoholic your not going to help them until they want to help themselves. They did this to themselves and only they can fix themselves.
It has gotten to the point that locally a man and a women broke into the home of an 82 year old women tied her to a chair and beat her so bad that she was hospitalized for 2 weeks stole her valuables and was even caught driving the old womens car when the were arrested. When in court they claimed it was for money to buy heroin so the court put them in rehab for 30 days and upon 30 days completion will drop all charges. Both of them already have a long criminal history and its cases like this that proves we should still have a hanging tree by every courthouse.

 

Amen.

Preach on, D-Boone.

 

I took opioids for a MONTH after a recent surgery. Stopped taking them when I started feeling better. I was VERY thankful to have the relief! I also took tylenol and codeine for a few days after a terribly abscessed tooth was pulled. Stopped taking them when the pain wore off, didn't use the week worth I was given. So you cannot blankly say people are addicted after one week of constant use. It's just not true.

Each person is different. Some people benefit from long-term opioid use, others don't. I believe there should be better follow-up with doctors regarding pain management and opioid use instead of writing blank prescriptions. But the medication should be available for those who need and benefit from it.

 

I'm glad you only took opioids for the month you needed it. One month isn't long term.
However I didn't say anything about tylenol and codeine. I don't think codeine is an opioid, although it can be addictive.

ETA.
I was wrong about whether it's an opioid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codeine

I agree with the fact that everyone is different, but there isn't any medical research that backs up the claim that "long-term opioid use" has any benefit - to anyone.
They knew that when they changed the prescription protocols and they know it today, which is why things are changing back in the medical profession.
The sad part is that many people taking them long term either don't know it or won't believe it despite all the studies.

 

Yes, codeine is an opioid. The combination is called Tylenol 3. Great stuff for short term use for intense pain like getting a tooth pulled. Some studies are blaming the current opioid epidemic on widespread use of Tylenol 3 among teenagers after getting their wisdom teeth removed.

 

By taking pain meds away from people that use them correctly to have any productive quality of life, our government just produced millions of new street drug buyer's.

 

I have back pain, documented. I was prescribed Vicodin 500’s about five years ago, maybe more. That changed to the Norco’s when the formula changed. You do not become addicted to them that quickly unless your brain is wired towards it in the beginning. I have not changed my dosage nor have I asked for it to be increased. I use it as a tool to cut the edge when I hurt, it also helps to get a good nights sleep. That does more for my pain then the drug. But without the drug a good nights sleep is fleeting. I can take or leave them as needed. I spent a week in the hospital last summer without them and suffered no ill responses. It does matter though if one has an addiction type personality. And drugs are not the only thing one can become addicted too.

 

In a truly just world the people who are rejoicing over Purdue's troubles would wind up in constant intractable pain and be unable to find relief.

 

Now that's what I call a cruel remark.
If someone you loved was intentionally tricked into being poisoned all because Perdue wanted to get wealthier, you'd probably be wishing ill in the opposite direction.

Mish's last post nailed it, and both agree for the most part.

I will rail that what you say is false. It's people who either just want the high, or people who are genuinely in pain that blindly trust what doctors say and take whatever medication is given them without due diligence that get into genuine trouble. If you suffer from one of these chronic conditions, you've learned (often the hard way) that you have to be your own advocate, never take what a doctor says on face value, do your own research, and be very aware of how much of anything you are taking and if it's doing what it should be. Being a responsible patient, which the medical community hates and tries to curtail at every opportunity.

I'm glad your wife has found a way out, and again, I don't mean to belittle anything she's been through. But in a way, we are really talking about apples and oranges if she's found a way to function - in every sense of the word - without using pain medication.

We were indeed discussing two different uses of opioids and I should have posted the studies that divided the types of chronic pain and their causes when I relayed the results on those whom it did more harm than good.
Unfortunately that group is quite large and the very market that Perdue Pharma was anxious to sell to when they lobbied the FDA for the regulatory change 20 years ago.
Those were the people getting surgeries who should have stopped taking the pain meds when they were recovered, in weeks - not years later and still on them.
My wife was fortunate that she WAS intolerant, but it nearly killed her to figure that out, especially when the doctors insisted that it couldn't be their pills making her so sick.
When she couldn't stop vomiting all day, couldn't stop shivering in 90 degree heat under a blanket and was essentially housebound and wasting away - they denied to my face what was obvious. After 3 days in the hospital she was recovering ...........until they gave her a "small" dose (5 mg) of the same stuff and the next morning she was back to throwing fluids out of both ends again!
Pardon the graphic details, but it was a serious life and death situation.
That was just the beginning of a long road to regain her health and she never took more than prescribed, often less.
Her own body had more sense than the doctors did and rejected their poison.
Most of her clients have the same stories and history, so far about 50. Multiply that by another 10 in just one fledgling company, with hundreds others nationwide and that's not a few anecdotes anymore.
It's simply that we know two entirely different groups of people with opposite results.

 

farmrbrown, your wife and people who have similar reactions, should never be given opioids. When my husband had that reaction after being given Tylenol 3 while still in the hospital after a hernia operation the doctor told him to say that he is allergic to codeine. Serious reactions like that are indeed debilitating and are very real. But for every person that has a bad reaction to opioids there are 10 people who respond well to the medication. The restrictions on opioids harm those people whom are helped by opioid treatment.

I was offered opioids for several years for my chronic pain. I always refused them because the pain was still there but I was too loopy to care. After my surgery I was given a stronger dosage than the one in Tylenol 3. That was what I needed. The pain was relieved and I was able to sleep.

Just because a person has a bad reaction to medication does not mean it is poison. If so I can legitimately call penicillin a poison. If I take it more than a couple days it can kill me.

I am sorry your wife was injured. I am sorry she had a bad reaction and doctors which refused to believe it was harming her. I am glad she has found relief for her pain.

 

farmrbrown, your wife and people who have similar reactions, should never be given opioids. When my husband had that reaction after being given Tylenol 3 while still in the hospital after a hernia operation the doctor told him to say that he is allergic to codeine. Serious reactions like that are indeed debilitating and are very real. But for every person that has a bad reaction to opioids there are 10 people who respond well to the medication. The restrictions on opioids harm those people whom are helped by opioid treatment.

I was offered opioids for several years for my chronic pain. I always refused them because the pain was still there but I was too loopy to care. After my surgery I was given a stronger dosage than the one in Tylenol 3. That was what I needed. The pain was relieved and I was able to sleep.

Just because a person has a bad reaction to medication does not mean it is poison. If so I can legitimately call penicillin a poison. If I take it more than a couple days it can kill me.

I am sorry your wife was injured. I am sorry she had a bad reaction and doctors which refused to believe it was harming her. I am glad she has found relief for her pain.

I've been trying not to put too many details about her private info on a public forum, even with her permission, but the consensus (as I predicted) is that this was an isolated case and it was all opioids that made her sick.

She took Vicodin and Norco for the ten years of hell. It was Oxycontin that put her in the ER. ALL of them exactly as prescribed.
Today, she will take SMALL doses for a FEW days without a severe reaction, such as a broken wrist. Her cast comes off in 2 weeks.
Even 2 or 3 days of pain meds will bring back some nausea and constipation, but large doses of tylenol and acetaminophen will harm a liver in someone with Hep C.
She now has 1 script for a mild muscle relaxer and sometimes takes an antihistamine and "sleepy time tea" at bedtime. That's it.
Her health is back to normal and she thanks God every day that she finally woke up to what was causing it.
She works with a dozen people a week nationwide that have the exact same story and gets new clients every few months. There are thousands of people employed doing the same thing so keep multiplying to get the scale of the problem.

None of this would be an issue for me if it weren't for the legal documents that everyone can read for themselves.
It's a fact that Perdue paid a lot of money to get the regulatory change in how Oxycontin was prescribed.
It's a fact they knew it should not be used for chronic pain.
It's a fact that the profit and sales went thru the roof after that and millions were affected.
All of those facts came out in the court case they lost after being sued in 2006.
It's now 2019.

One of haunting memories she has was the little smile the doc had on his face when she got her 1st Rx of Oxy. he said, "You're gonna like this."
Another fact is in many states, including Florida, the DEA has busted dozens of doctors and pharmacies who were acting as nothing more than drug dealers in white coats.
Y'all can refuse to see the blame and think Perdue and it's team of dealers are innocent. That's fine. But I think you experienced the exact same thing that many people do, including the dozens that my wife has coached thru their withdrawals and learned to get relief without a lifetime of addiction........

I was offered opioids for several years for my chronic pain. I always refused them because the pain was still there but I was too loopy to care.

THIS is exactly what I'm talking about and nothing else.
The only thing in dispute are the numbers.
Some of you think these are isolated and few.
Perdue's bank account and the our country's treatment centers tell me the number is in the millions.

The only other thing I will not debate, is chemistry.
If anyone thinks they can take heavy duty opioids for months or years and NOT be addicted, then I'll make a bet with you.
Stop taking them.
By the 3rd day you'll be confined to your bathroom going at both ends. You can't sleep, your body aches and you feel like you've got the world's worst flu.
If you make it a whole month without going back to the pills, call me and tell me you still don't know what a heroin addict goes thru.
But I don't expect many calls. Most people give up after the 2nd day.

Are there 1 or 2 in the country that can quit cold turkey without those symptoms?
Maybe, but the odds are so high, I'll still take the bet without hesitation.
At $100 a pop, I'd be a millionaire before year's end.
Don't believe me?......... ask Perdue Pharma.

 

No one thinks Purdue Pharma is innocent of anything, it's been proven they deliberately made the drug look less addictive so medical professionals would prescribe it as often as possible. It's that you seem rather gleeful over a possible bankruptcy of the company that produces a medication you think is poison, and it would make the drug even harder to get for the people that really need it.

I quit cold turkey, I had to due to complications. The only withdrawal I had was a headache and irritability for a few days, definitely less than a week. I absolutely wasn't confined to the bathroom "going at both ends". I also wasn't on "heavy duty" opioids, but I was on them for decades. I believe it's been four years since I took T3. Mr. Pixie was also on opioids for years due to a work related injury that ended in spinal surgery with fusion and hardware. He also quit cold turkey, didn't need it after the surgery recovery period. He hasn't had an opioid in close to 15 years. Surely if two in one family can quit cold turkey it's not only "1 or 2 in the country" that can?

You can hold any opinion you like, but pain relief is needed for some people.

 

Okey dokey.

No one thinks Purdue Pharma is innocent of anything, it's been proven they deliberately made the drug look less addictive so medical professionals would prescribe it as often as possible. It's that you seem rather gleeful over a possible bankruptcy of the company that produces a medication you think is poison, and it would make the drug even harder to get for the people that really need it.

Well, the truth is I am a little happy about their troubles, but I have no doubt they will be back after bankruptcy, with protection from further liability.
I don't begrudge the people that need it and there are plenty of drug suppliers to fill in any gaps.

I quit cold turkey, I had to due to complications. The only withdrawal I had was a headache and irritability for a few days, definitely less than a week. I absolutely wasn't confined to the bathroom "going at both ends". I also wasn't on "heavy duty" opioids, but I was on them for decades. I believe it's been four years since I took T3. Mr. Pixie was also on opioids for years due to a work related injury that ended in spinal surgery with fusion and hardware. He also quit cold turkey, didn't need it after the surgery recovery period. He hasn't had an opioid in close to 15 years. Surely if two in one family can quit cold turkey it's not only "1 or 2 in the country" that can?

You can hold any opinion you like, but pain relief is needed for some people.

Maybe you guys are superhuman or all the others going thru withdrawals are fooling everybody.
Either way I guess we'll hold our individual opinions until we see evidence to change our respective minds.

I do find it slightly amusing/confusing that more than one person has talked about their experience with Tylenol 3 as if it was even close to the potency of these other narcotics.
I think it explains the difference in the experiences we have.

No, I don't.

I'm not a bit surprised.

 

To clarify, I was not given T3 after my surgery. I was on a strong dose of hydrocodone for a month. Did not quit cold turkey but decreased the dosage as I felt better. I took it at night for a week after 4 weeks of 4 to 6 hour doses. My surgeon would have given me another 30 day supply if I had needed it. This was not the wimpy T3 you get after having a tooth pulled.

I never said Perdue and overprescribing doctors did no wrong. I simply stated that some people need strong narcotic pain medication and it is wrong to keep those people from getting needed pain medication.

Some people cannot take any opioid pain medication and doctors should consider that fact each and every time they write a script. Your wife's doctors should have listened to her when she had problems with the medication. No, it wasn't an isolated incident. I never even hinted that it was just her. Just like any other medication, there will be people who have a bad reaction. Does that mean nobody should have those medications? No. It means drug companies and especially doctors should better monitor patients when they write prescriptions. A couple follow-up phone calls to monitor reactions would be a good place to start.

I will say it again, I was very grateful to have those medications and not have to keep going back to the surgeon every couple days to get more.

 

Interesting discussions. More or less mirror discussions in media. These are opinions, based on diverse experiences -- not facts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion -- but they are not entitled to manufacturer facts. So what are the facts?

• Addiction is a brain disease. It is estimated that 7-14% of the population is addicted. This has not changed since stats have been recorded.
• Addiction is a horrible illness that results in personal & social ruin. It must be treated or prevented.
• Addiction is associated with a variety of substances, including opioids, & certain behaviors, including gambling. The most "addictive substances" are alcohol, tobacco, methamphetamine; others include heroin, cocaine, fentanyl. Even coffee & chocolate can nurture addiction.
• Addiction is maintained, not caused, by these substances. Even removal of the offending substance does not cure the addiction. Remember there are only recovering alcoholics, not recovered alcoholics.
• Opioids are proven analgesics, pain relievers, similar to endorphins that are found naturally in the body. Regrettably there are no robust scientific studies that prove opioids are safe or effective in chronic pain. However, there also are no such studies to prove they are not effective or safe. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
• Opioids are potent bio-active substances/medications & as such have major biological consequences, good & bad. As such they are similar to almost all other bio-active substances/medications as to dependence, tolerance, morbidity & mortality. It depends on appropriate use & dosage.
• The rate of addiction in patients with pain using opioids is no greater than the rate in the general population not afflicted with pain.
• Intractable pain is also a brain disease, resulting in adverse personal & social consequences, that must be treated or prevented.
• Appropriate treatment of pain is a professional, ethical & humane obligation. This includes using opioids when indicated.
• Mandated abstinence from opioids, preventing access to patients with intractable pain in need of treatment, is tantamount to torture. It leads to illegal procurement of substances & suicide.
• Scientific facts, free of editorial opinions or propaganda, are readily available in the scientific literature, but require critical analysis.

 

My husband has a lot of arthritis and there are bone chips in his knees and hips that they keep removing. I guess as someone ages the bones rub together an can cause chips and lots of arthritis. They do surgery over and over to take out little bone splinters and fragments, but he is honestly in pain. He can't have a knee replacement due to other health issues, so they give him pain killers. And, I am utterly palled at the way some hospitals or doctors treat people with chronic pain like they are heroin addicts or something. My husband takes aspirin, tylenonl with codeine off and on and Tramadol. They did give him a few days worth of something else once when the bone had splintered so bad and they did surgery. Somehow once a pain killer gets put on the medical record it goes into a state wide file or something. He was at the ER with wheezing a few weeks back for a breathing treatment. They treated him like he was on heroin or something. Then they did a urine test which came up clear afterwords they said they had been looking for drugs. We didn't' realize what was happening at first but we knew they were acting weird. We honestly thought they were looking at his urine for sugar, we didn't realize they thought he was on heroin or something. I believe that the GOP is looking for drugs in the population so hard that they are hurting the ones who need medications. I have heard horror stories about kids with asthma being harassed for their inhalers and things because they are "drugs". I know kids are using drugs and hurting themselves. But a lot of people are not addicts. They simply need medications to help their health. I was at the ER last year, when they took a urine sample. My BP was 220/100, and I didn't relate the urine test to a drug test. The nurse walked back into the room and said, "She's clear". They are idiots, looking for demons under doorknobs. Disgusting subhuman idots that need to loose their jobs. Some people have high blood pressure. That is just a fact of life. It is not due to cocaine or whatever "flavor of the month" is being used illegally. Some people have arthritis. They are not drug addicts. They have a physical problem that needs help. Take out the stupid bone chips or give them some pain killlers to deal with the pain. Stop looking at them like they are evil doers seeking drugs. We need to back off of looking for addicts as a society and find some ways to help people without sitting in hypocritical judgement about things that we don't know about.

 

My husband has a lot of arthritis and there are bone chips in his knees and hips that they keep removing. I guess as someone ages the bones rub together an can cause chips and lots of arthritis. They do surgery over and over to take out little bone splinters and fragments, but he is honestly in pain. He can't have a knee replacement due to other health issues, so they give him pain killers. And, I am utterly palled at the way some hospitals or doctors treat people with chronic pain like they are heroin addicts or something. My husband takes aspirin, tylenonl with codeine off and on and Tramadol. They did give him a few days worth of something else once when the bone had splintered so bad and they did surgery. Somehow once a pain killer gets put on the medical record it goes into a state wide file or something. He was at the ER with wheezing a few weeks back for a breathing treatment. They treated him like he was on heroin or something. Then they did a urine test which came up clear afterwords they said they had been looking for drugs. We didn't' realize what was happening at first but we knew they were acting weird. We honestly thought they were looking at his urine for sugar, we didn't realize they thought he was on heroin or something. I believe that the GOP is looking for drugs in the population so hard that they are hurting the ones who need medications. I have heard horror stories about kids with asthma being harassed for their inhalers and things because they are "drugs". I know kids are using drugs and hurting themselves. But a lot of people are not addicts. They simply need medications to help their health. I was at the ER last year, when they took a urine sample. My BP was 220/100, and I didn't relate the urine test to a drug test. The nurse walked back into the room and said, "She's clear". They are idiots, looking for demons under doorknobs. Disgusting subhuman idots that need to loose their jobs. Some people have high blood pressure. That is just a fact of life. It is not due to cocaine or whatever "flavor of the month" is being used illegally. Some people have arthritis. They are not drug addicts. They have a physical problem that needs help. Take out the stupid bone chips or give them some pain killlers to deal with the pain. Stop looking at them like they are evil doers seeking drugs. We need to back off of looking for addicts as a society and find some ways to help people without sitting in hypocritical judgement about things that we don't know about.

The health care workers check to see what drugs/medications are in a person's system to ascertain what could be wrong, and how to treat them. Drug interactions can kill. It's part of their job, they see addicts day in and day out, although I've met some that were very rude about it.

NYS has a mandatory controlled medication reporting agency to check to see if someone has prescriptions from more than one medical professional. I'm sure it will be national soon.

 

Interesting discussions. More or less mirror discussions in media. These are opinions, based on diverse experiences -- not facts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion -- but they are not entitled to manufacturer facts. So what are the facts?

• Addiction is a brain disease. It is estimated that 7-14% of the population is addicted. This has not changed since stats have been recorded.
• Addiction is a horrible illness that results in personal & social ruin. It must be treated or prevented.
• Addiction is associated with a variety of substances, including opioids, & certain behaviors, including gambling. The most "addictive substances" are alcohol, tobacco, methamphetamine; others include heroin, cocaine, fentanyl. Even coffee & chocolate can nurture addiction.
• Addiction is maintained, not caused, by these substances. Even removal of the offending substance does not cure the addiction. Remember there are only recovering alcoholics, not recovered alcoholics.
• Opioids are proven analgesics, pain relievers, similar to endorphins that are found naturally in the body. Regrettably there are no robust scientific studies that prove opioids are safe or effective in chronic pain. However, there also are no such studies to prove they are not effective or safe. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
• Opioids are potent bio-active substances/medications & as such have major biological consequences, good & bad. As such they are similar to almost all other bio-active substances/medications as to dependence, tolerance, morbidity & mortality. It depends on appropriate use & dosage.
• The rate of addiction in patients with pain using opioids is no greater than the rate in the general population not afflicted with pain.
• Intractable pain is also a brain disease, resulting in adverse personal & social consequences, that must be treated or prevented.
• Appropriate treatment of pain is a professional, ethical & humane obligation. This includes using opioids when indicated.
• Mandated abstinence from opioids, preventing access to patients with intractable pain in need of treatment, is tantamount to torture. It leads to illegal procurement of substances & suicide.
• Scientific facts, free of editorial opinions or propaganda, are readily available in the scientific literature, but require critical analysis.

I think I see the main problem with my posts about this and why the pushback.
The first "fact" listed (7-14% addicted) caught my attention because the studies with similar low rates are what Perdue Pharma used to get the FDA to change its mind about prescribing opioids.

Ok, ya got me, I forgot the medical distinction that makes all the difference when those stats are used.
Instead of saying "addiction" I should have used "physically dependent" in making my point.
https://drugabuse.com/prescription-opiates/

Opioid dependence reflects a physiologic state wherein the user begins to require the drug in order to avoid withdrawal.
Opioid addiction is characterized as persistent, compulsive drug-seeking behaviors and thoughts, despite the adverse consequences of the associated drug use.
The lack of consensus on what constitutes opioid addiction is one of the reasons public health guidelines and physician education on this topic are so difficult to regulate.

Although physical dependence can indicate an addiction, it can also occur without the presence of psychological problems like craving and compulsive use—it may just be that a person has been using the drug therapeutically for a long time.

This occurs with many individuals who use opioids for pain—they develop a physical dependence on them but do not have the accompanying psychological symptoms that constitute an addiction. From a physician’s point of view, it is very difficult to discern who is experiencing a legitimate side effect of long-term use and who may be misusing opioids.

Since we were talking about physical pain, I didn't think the distinction between the two was necessary in order to talk about the physical symptoms, but I guess that had to made clear to avoid all the stigma attached to the term.

 

I think I see the main problem with my posts about this and why the pushback.
The first "fact" listed (7-14% addicted) caught my attention because the studies with similar low rates are what Perdue Pharma used to get the FDA to change its mind about prescribing opioids.

Ok, ya got me, I forgot the medical distinction that makes all the difference when those stats are used.
Instead of saying "addiction" I should have used "physically dependent" in making my point.
https://drugabuse.com/prescription-opiates/



Since we were talking about physical pain, I didn't think the distinction between the two was necessary in order to talk about the physical symptoms, but I guess that had to made clear to avoid all the stigma attached to the term.

 

I've been trying not to put too many details about her private info on a public forum, even with her permission, but the consensus (as I predicted) is that this was an isolated case and it was all opioids that made her sick.

She took Vicodin and Norco for the ten years of hell. It was Oxycontin that put her in the ER. ALL of them exactly as prescribed.
Today, she will take SMALL doses for a FEW days without a severe reaction, such as a broken wrist. Her cast comes off in 2 weeks.
Even 2 or 3 days of pain meds will bring back some nausea and constipation, but large doses of tylenol and acetaminophen will harm a liver in someone with Hep C.
She now has 1 script for a mild muscle relaxer and sometimes takes an antihistamine and "sleepy time tea" at bedtime. That's it.
Her health is back to normal and she thanks God every day that she finally woke up to what was causing it.
She works with a dozen people a week nationwide that have the exact same story and gets new clients every few months. There are thousands of people employed doing the same thing so keep multiplying to get the scale of the problem.

None of this would be an issue for me if it weren't for the legal documents that everyone can read for themselves.
It's a fact that Perdue paid a lot of money to get the regulatory change in how Oxycontin was prescribed.
It's a fact they knew it should not be used for chronic pain.
It's a fact that the profit and sales went thru the roof after that and millions were affected.
All of those facts came out in the court case they lost after being sued in 2006.
It's now 2019.

One of haunting memories she has was the little smile the doc had on his face when she got her 1st Rx of Oxy. he said, "You're gonna like this."
Another fact is in many states, including Florida, the DEA has busted dozens of doctors and pharmacies who were acting as nothing more than drug dealers in white coats.
Y'all can refuse to see the blame and think Perdue and it's team of dealers are innocent. That's fine. But I think you experienced the exact same thing that many people do, including the dozens that my wife has coached thru their withdrawals and learned to get relief without a lifetime of addiction........



THIS is exactly what I'm talking about and nothing else.
The only thing in dispute are the numbers.
Some of you think these are isolated and few.
Perdue's bank account and the our country's treatment centers tell me the number is in the millions.

The only other thing I will not debate, is chemistry.
If anyone thinks they can take heavy duty opioids for months or years and NOT be addicted, then I'll make a bet with you.
Stop taking them.
By the 3rd day you'll be confined to your bathroom going at both ends. You can't sleep, your body aches and you feel like you've got the world's worst flu.
If you make it a whole month without going back to the pills, call me and tell me you still don't know what a heroin addict goes thru.
But I don't expect many calls. Most people give up after the 2nd day.

Are there 1 or 2 in the country that can quit cold turkey without those symptoms?
Maybe, but the odds are so high, I'll still take the bet without hesitation.
At $100 a pop, I'd be a millionaire before year's end.
Don't believe me?......... ask Perdue Pharma.

First off, I'm sorry your wife has gone through this, I know it is terrible and no one should have to every go through that. It sounds like your wife has either a drug sensitivity or an allergy to opioids. My kid does too, which is why she doesn't take them, and I also do. We also had to learn the hard way, as many doctors are actually less versed in dangerous side effects and rare sensitivities/allergies than a diligent patient might be. People do need to be made more aware that they need to pay attention to what their bodies are telling them, even if the doctors are saying it's fine. Doctors aren't gods. I am sorry she's gone through this.

But the thing here I really want to point out that this sort of reaction or allergy or addiction isn't opioid specific. It might be in your wife - she may tolerate everything but opioids - but that isn't the fault of the opioids or the manufacturers. My daughter has had life-threatening reactions to opioids, certain antidepressants, certain anticonvulsants, and then just really bad reactions to NSAIDs, SSRIs, steroids, man I could go on and on. I myself cannot tolerate opioids (found out when given Demerol during labor, and then more recently when an anesthesiologist slipped me some fentanyl intravenously before surgery without asking, that was super fun - he also had the creepy "you will like this" smile as he's injecting it, which alerted me before I started feeling like I was going to die), and have had serious reactions to antidepressants used to try to help quit smoking. Just because we can't take these classes of medications without serious adverse reactions, it doesn't mean that no one else can't take them and not have a good result. I know lots of people who have successfully quit smoking on Zyban/Welbutrin, while if I take it I'll probably die as I lose the ability to breathe. It's not the fault of the drug, doctor, or manufacturer, I am just allergic to Buproprion.

In my opinion, it is the fault of Pharma in that they withhold information - although nowadays that can be countered by patients in doing their own research - Google and normal people on chronic pain forums have saved my daughter's life more than once. It's also the fault of doctors not being knowledgeable about side-effects, not paying attention to what the patients tell them about their reactions, not taking patients seriously when the complain about "weird" side-effects that the doctor may have never seen before. A good doctor would recognize the sensitivity/allergy and/or addiction symptoms and stop prescribing whatever med caused it. We have a serious shortage of "good" doctors lately, in my anecdotal experience - although pain management specialists do seem to be more on their game than going to a GP for pain management. Same reason you'd want to go to a psychiatrist to have mental health prescriptions rather than your family doctor - they just know more about the medications and drug interactions/reactions because they deal with it all the time.

Anyway, I get it. It's just the assumption that no one else can tolerate the drugs because my kid, me, or your wife can't, or can't take them without having the same reaction or addiction your wife did that I feel is wrong. It feels like rooting for prohibition on something genuinely helpful to a lot of people because some people can't handle it (either with bad reactions or addictions), which is not fair to those who can handle it and really need it to live.

And at some point, for the truly chronically ill pain patient, being physically dependent becomes a seriously moot point. I'd rather my daughter (assuming she could tolerate opioids) be physically dependent than dead.

 

First off, I'm sorry your wife has gone through this, I know it is terrible and no one should have to every go through that. It sounds like your wife has either a drug sensitivity or an allergy to opioids. My kid does too, which is why she doesn't take them, and I also do. We also had to learn the hard way, as many doctors are actually less versed in dangerous side effects and rare sensitivities/allergies than a diligent patient might be. People do need to be made more aware that they need to pay attention to what their bodies are telling them, even if the doctors are saying it's fine. Doctors aren't gods. I am sorry she's gone through this.

But the thing here I really want to point out that this sort of reaction or allergy or addiction isn't opioid specific. It might be in your wife - she may tolerate everything but opioids - but that isn't the fault of the opioids or the manufacturers. My daughter has had life-threatening reactions to opioids, certain antidepressants, certain anticonvulsants, and then just really bad reactions to NSAIDs, SSRIs, steroids, man I could go on and on. I myself cannot tolerate opioids (found out when given Demerol during labor, and then more recently when an anesthesiologist slipped me some fentanyl intravenously before surgery without asking, that was super fun - he also had the creepy "you will like this" smile as he's injecting it, which alerted me before I started feeling like I was going to die), and have had serious reactions to antidepressants used to try to help quit smoking. Just because we can't take these classes of medications without serious adverse reactions, it doesn't mean that no one else can't take them and not have a good result. I know lots of people who have successfully quit smoking on Zyban/Welbutrin, while if I take it I'll probably die as I lose the ability to breathe. It's not the fault of the drug, doctor, or manufacturer, I am just allergic to Buproprion.

In my opinion, it is the fault of Pharma in that they withhold information - although nowadays that can be countered by patients in doing their own research - Google and normal people on chronic pain forums have saved my daughter's life more than once. It's also the fault of doctors not being knowledgeable about side-effects, not paying attention to what the patients tell them about their reactions, not taking patients seriously when the complain about "weird" side-effects that the doctor may have never seen before. A good doctor would recognize the sensitivity/allergy and/or addiction symptoms and stop prescribing whatever med caused it. We have a serious shortage of "good" doctors lately, in my anecdotal experience - although pain management specialists do seem to be more on their game than going to a GP for pain management. Same reason you'd want to go to a psychiatrist to have mental health prescriptions rather than your family doctor - they just know more about the medications and drug interactions/reactions because they deal with it all the time.

Anyway, I get it. It's just the assumption that no one else can tolerate the drugs because my kid, me, or your wife can't, or can't take them without having the same reaction or addiction your wife did that I feel is wrong. It feels like rooting for prohibition on something genuinely helpful to a lot of people because some people can't handle it (either with bad reactions or addictions), which is not fair to those who can handle it and really need it to live.

And at some point, for the truly chronically ill pain patient, being physically dependent becomes a seriously moot point. I'd rather my daughter (assuming she could tolerate opioids) be physically dependent than dead.

Thank you, that was a well thought out and articulated post.

Yes, she is sensitive to medication in general.
One of our pet peeves is the laziness in dosages, it's like a drive thru - "You want regular or Jumbo fries with that?"
A few pounds or some different body chemistry and a "regular size" dose is WAY too much for some people.
My wife is one of those who never used to question doctors and was never good at math, especially fractions.
We started halving and quartering her pills to customize her dosages when it was apparent that less was better.

I think my posts were taken a way that wasn't intended.
It's not that I'd like to see others' lose the right to choose what meds works for them, only that they be more aware of the known side effects and there may be other options that are healthier.
The effects of withdrawal from opioids and what they do to an otherwise healthy body have been known for a few centuries now. That much isn't really a rare occurrence, it's fairly common and the symptoms are about the same all around, with only the severity that varies.
And up until 20 years ago, when opioids were generally reserved for short term severe injuries or terminal cancer, you're right, side effects of dependence were a moot point.

I do think the overprescribing was intentional, unnecessary and reckless for both the doctors and the drug manufacturers............and it was only motivated by money.

There's one fact that gets overlooked, dismissed or ignored by the many Americans taking these drugs.
Either we have a serious problem or we are experiencing 80% of the pain in the world.


https://www.cnbc.com/2016/04/27/americans-consume-almost-all-of-the-global-opioid-supply.html

 

• Intractable pain is also a brain disease, resulting in adverse personal & social consequences, that must be treated or prevented.
• Appropriate treatment of pain is a professional, ethical & humane obligation.

That sounds more like opinions than facts.

I question what REQUIRES intractable pain to be treated?

I.e., what obligates society or the government or the medical community to treat pain?

While it might be a humanitarian thing to do, I disagree that there is an obligation.

No doubt that drug manufacturers, drug sellers, drug prescribers, and drug users would agree that they are obligations.

Since I am an engineer, I think EVERYBODY is obligated to have engineering services available. Just think how deprived some folks are and how they suffer because they do not have access to an engineer.

 

That sounds more like opinions than facts.

I question what REQUIRES intractable pain to be treated?

I.e., what obligates society or the government or the medical community to treat pain?

While it might be a humanitarian thing to do, I disagree that there is an obligation.

No doubt that drug manufacturers, drug sellers, drug prescribers, and drug users would agree that they are obligations.

Since I am an engineer, I think EVERYBODY is obligated to have engineering services available. Just think how deprived some folks are and how they suffer because they do not have access to an engineer.

I'm assuming it was meant in the medical sense - "required" as they are "required" to treat someone for a heart attack, severe constipation, or a broken leg. You don't just tell someone with a heart attack, constipation, or a broken leg that they're imagining things or med seeking and put them out on the street. Again, assuming because I'm not the quoted poster, but I'm pretty sure it was not meant in the legal sense of the word. Medical obligation, for someone who makes a living treating patients.

I'm not a drug manufacturer, seller, "prescriber" or user, but I agree with the quoted post, intractable pain should be treated as any other medical condition is treated. That it is a medical obligation.

I understand we're probably just getting into the nit-picky loophole arguing phase of this thread, but I seriously hope none of you ever have someone you care about in this situation. It's not theoretical to some of us.

 

No it isn't theoretical, it's real.
Pain pathways from the brain thru the nerves to the injury area can be compared to ruts in a road. When that pathway is traveled for years on end how good is that road people?
Are you the guy that tries straddling the ditches so your car quits bottoming out?
Then you are smart enough to know what the pain specialists have figured out about chronic pain.
You have to create new neuro pathways, because eventually your pain ends up "in a rut".
My wife can give you all the $10 medical words they use, but I speak plainly, and that's the gist of it.
It's the exact same treatment that stroke victims go thru in their recovery.

The issue with opioids is that Perdue conned the FDA into just prescribing higher doses and more potent formulas to treat the real problem of pain, instead of using our heads, literally, to find ways to psychologically "retrain" our brains and reroute the worn out neuro pathways in order to get better relief without more drugs.
It really does work and 90% of the clients don't believe a word of it at the beginning of the course.
About halfway thru, this changes 180 degrees when their own lives improve dramatically.
They can eat, walk to the store, some even go back to work again, many in fact.

But the pain is real. So are the other options.
This is one example where the Western world should put away their arrogance and look towards how the rest of the world deals with it.

 

I'm assuming it was meant in the medical sense - "required" as they are "required" to treat someone for a heart attack, severe constipation, or a broken leg. You don't just tell someone with a heart attack, constipation, or a broken leg that they're imagining things or med seeking and put them out on the street. Again, assuming because I'm not the quoted poster, but I'm pretty sure it was not meant in the legal sense of the word. Medical obligation, for someone who makes a living treating patients.

I'm not a drug manufacturer, seller, "prescriber" or user, but I agree with the quoted post, intractable pain should be treated as any other medical condition is treated. That it is a medical obligation.

I understand we're probably just getting into the nit-picky loophole arguing phase of this thread, but I seriously hope none of you ever have someone you care about in this situation. It's not theoretical to some of us.

Mish hit it on the head. The prevention & treatment of human illness, which includes pain, is a professional obligation of the medical profession imposed by the Code of Ethics. There is no such legal obligation with some eceptions (see EMTALA). As to how the rest of the world manages pain consult WHO (World Health Organization).

 

Speaking of the rest of the world, whatever became of acupuncture for pain relief?

Several years ago it was in all of the news, but I have not heard of anybody being treated with acupuncture in a while.

Did the pharmaceutical companies and doctors decide it was like hanging garlic around your neck to ward off evil spirits and ailments?

Or did they just decide that it was not profitable?

Or is it still a thing?

 

Great reference.But nothing new for those in the field of algiatry (pain medicine). Intractable neuropathic pain, pain without major nociceptive input, is a neuro-pathological disorder, a brain disease, with definitive anatomical, functional, chemical, & genetic changes. Cognitive & behavioral therapy have long been regarded as one of the pillars of management of such pain.

 

First cleanup.

 

I don't think the addict/dependant words make any difference once your tolerance builds up, from there your taking more or at the original dose you have to live with the side affects no matter what. Then throw in the withdrawal symptoms too. Just watch someone that can't find there pills in the morning and by noon there at nervous breakdown stage.
Now over in the benzo aisle we have wonderful choices for anxiety issues.
Klonipin is one of the best as long as you want your life ruined, you will be an addict in weeks, and plan on a nightmarish hell for a few years in order to taper off. Of course the side effects are too numerous to list but imagine being a different human being. This one is so good it has another name.....Brain Remodeler.
Next aisle over, your anti-depressant and schizophrenia section .
Not going there, you'll have to experience that on your own.

 

I took Klonopin PRN for years. Never had any problems with it, or getting off of it, and haven't needed it/taken it for about a decade or so. Never had an increase in dosage over the 8 or so years I had a prescription. Of course I wasn't popping them like candy, either, they were saved for anxiety that I couldn't talk myself out of. Same human being I always was, life was not ruined. Klonopin helped me to learn how to control my own anxiety to the point I was able to stop taking it altogether. Completely different experience for me.

I only keep piping in to remind people: just because you had a bad reaction to/got addicted to/didn't understand tolerance doesn't mean that that is the way that drug works for everyone.