purchasing a buckling problem

Discussion in 'Goats' started by All country, May 30, 2005.

  1. All country

    All country Well-Known Member

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    I am in a bit of a dilemma. In late Feb. we put a 50% deposit down on a Oberhausli buckling & companion wether. Both were less than 2 weeks old. Both come from very fine bloodlines and we were very much looking forward to bringing them home. The agreement we had with the seller was she would leave them on their dams at least 3 months until they were weaned. She would contact us in mid/late May after they were weaned to bring them home. We were to get their papers at that time. I took notes as we were discussing things with the seller.


    It is now past the time we expected to bring home our little guys. I left a message for her (seller) to contact us so we could pick them up. I was concerned as to why she has failed to contact us.
    She returns my call and tell me a story I am very suspicious of.

    *She claims that I was to call her in April to pick them up. Well, in April they would not yet have been the 3 months before weaning that we had agreed on.(an age she advised) I also wrote the app. pick up date in my book while speaking to her and asked her to confirm it at that time to make sure there would be no misunderstanding.

    *She claims to have tried repeatedly over a 3 week period to call us and got a "this number has been disconnected and is no longer in service" message. She then said our little goats had become such a problem so she had to get rid of them. She also claims to have heard that we had filed for bankruptcy.


    We have NEVER filed bankruptcy. We have very strong opinions on the subject. We are not wealthy and have to carefully budget, but we always pay our bills and have an excellent credit rating. I think of our entire conversation this is what I found the most upsetting.

    Our phone has never been disconnected and we have had no problems with our line. I contacted several friends and family members. No one has had any problems getting thru to us. I contacted the telephone company. There is nor has been any problem with our line.

    We ourselves have had young bucks and wethers at this age and never had any problem with them. She has a really nice set up for goats. A large beautiful herd. I have a hard time imagining that 2 three month old goats could create so much of a problem for her.



    We had agreed on $150.00 for the buckling and $50.00 for the wether. We strongly suspect that she found she could get more out of them than our agreed upon price. We suspect the story was created to try and cover her butt. She has now agreed to sell us a year old buck she claims is of the same bloodlines for $150.00. She says we will get his papers with him and this is a deal for us as the other two would not have had papers. I had made sure that we were very clear on that and would be getting their papers when we first paid our deposit.


    We know that her goats are champion bloodlines are beautiful & healthy animals. This late into the season we may be hard pressed to find a quality buck to breed our girls to. We no longer have a buck and were unable to breed our girls last season so this is a major concern for us. Going ahead and purchasing this buck will assure that are girls are bred this year, but feel we have been lied to (certainly her "misunderstandings" were incorrect) We are not sure we want to have business dealing with this lady.

    How would you deal with a situation like this?
     
  2. trnubian

    trnubian Twin-Reflection Nubians

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    If it were me. I would terminate the whole thing. Ask for your money back. If she doesn't give it to you, than you she is a very unreliable person. She may have nice goats, but she obviously dosen't care too much about out them if she just wants more money out of them instead of honoring your deal in the first place. If she is dishonest anyway, how do you know this next buck is out of the same lines. It is very easy to tattoo the "wrong" letters and numbers on a goat.

    There are many nice Obs in IN. I know a lady in Bunker Hill IN who breeds very nice Obs. Her name is Mary Birkey. They usually win state fair every year. There name is Hoosier Farm. I am not sure of the email address, but if you want it, I can look it up for you.
     

  3. Jen H

    Jen H Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't have any business dealings with her. I'd ask for my money back and terminate the whole deal. There's something really fish about 2 baby goats being such a problem that she had to get rid of them, but having a really nice year old you can have.

    Exactly what is your guarantee she isn't selling you an animal she isn't happy with (for whatever reason) and wants to cull. She's already sounding less than honest.
     
  4. All country

    All country Well-Known Member

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    I would be very interested in names that we could contact. Bunker Hill is plenty close. We have seen their goats at the county fair and they seem to be nice animals. Do you know if they test their animals? Our goats haven't been tested in a while, but we limit exposure to other animals. Last time they were tested they were CAE free, and given clean bills of health. We make sure any goat we bring home has been tested and is disease free.

    The more I think about it the more uncomfortable I am at continuing to do business with this lady. My husband wants to just get our money back.
     
  5. ihedrick

    ihedrick Can't stop thinkin'

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    I don't know about the breed of goat you aretalking about; but if that is how she handled her side of the deal; I would not get into any other deal with her. This other one she is offering may be a great buck; but she is probably getting rid of it for some reason, and she may be taking you guys for gullable goat buyers. After all, she could have send you a letter stating her intentions of getting rid of them! Get your money back and look elsewhere.
     
  6. All country

    All country Well-Known Member

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    You're right. I didn't even think of that. She could have at any time sent us a letter advising us of a problem. We have lived at the same address for 17 years. There was no attempt on her part to refund our deposit. She simply suggested we take this other goat instead.
     
  7. JR05

    JR05 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for your problems, as a breeder I get very angry at people that don't honor their deals. I don't ask for a deposit on any of my goats. If you offer to pay out right then thats great but my policy is pay on pick-up. Sometimes people change their minds or have family problems and can't take the goats. I understand because I get in those positions too. I had been treated shabbily when we first started breeding so I know how you feel. If money changes hands please in the future get it in writing because so many people have a "no return" on the deposit and with this lady you might just run into that from the sounds of it. Good Luck and hope you get a good buck.

    JR05
     
  8. All country

    All country Well-Known Member

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    I spoke to the seller this evening. She is refusing to refund our money at this time. There was nothing signed stating that this was a non refundable deposit. I would not have been willing to put that much down on such young goats. I have raised enough goats to know that anything can happen especially at such a young age. I would not have risked our money. The deposit was to show good faith on our part. I did not back out of the deal. She sold our goats out from under us.

    I am not interested in the goat she is offering us in their place. One of the first things she informed me was I would have to have a Vet. out to treat him as he has horn problems. I do not want to buy her problems.
    I feel that he would end up costing us far too much.

    I am getting the bank to send me a photo copy of the check I wrote her. I believe it has the expected pick up date noted in the memo. I know I did note it in my check book, but I feel a copy of the the check she cashed would be better proof. The phone company will also send me papers I need to show that we have had no problems with our phone service. I have people willing to show that they had no trouble phoning me during this time.

    One of the things that most concern me is she has already stated that she has talked with at least 3 others about this supposed bankruptcy! I feel that this borders on slander.

    I do not understand why she would behave this way. Up until meeting her about purchasing these goats we had never met her before. We had no reason to expect problems with her, let alone her malicious gossip(lies). After seeing the kind of person she is we are not interested in having any business dealings with her at all.

    I will send her a certified letter demanding the full refund of our deposit, giving her time to refund it. I feel that under the circumstances this is more than fair.


    edited to add: If I had backed out of the deal, I would have expected to lose our full deposit and accepted it as fair.
     
  9. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like there wasn't a good contract to begin with. First it should always be in writing, even if it's a simple, keep my email as my contract and write me back with what you want, which is what I seem to do alot with internet contacts. You should have gotten it in writing, what you were giving her a deposit for. Because as of now she owes you nothing more than a kid next year. She says one thing, you say another, you have a deposit for a buckling, you didn't pick up the buckling in a timely manner in her way of thinking, so he was sold, she could absorb your deposit to feed that kid all those months. Instead she is now offering you a registered buck, take him as long as she really does have the papers in hand, and run.

    Think of it this way, one buckling here would have eaten $75 in saleable milk by weaning at 12 weeks, I wouldn't even keep a wether for anyone for 12 weeks and then only get $50 for him. Why if she is a top show herd I find it hard to believe that she would agree to keep a buck this long with no feed or milk compensation, $150 is simply way to low of a price for anything but a fresh soaking kid that you would have to feed out. Here, I would add $75 per month to raise out a kid.

    Because of the bottom line for me with my herd, during breeding season, the beginning of show season, I really do think that you and her were simply on the wrong page.

    I would not have sold the buck and wether until I had sent you a return repciept requested letter, but no if you had not picked up the buck when I had written down the date, you would not get your deposit back, unless I sold both the buck and wether for more than the money I had in them. Deposits at my farm are non-refundable if someone just changes their mind or does not pick up their animal. A deposit protects me from this, it also protects the buyer from me selling this animal to someone else. If I have to return a deposit it is because an animal was not born or I decided because of a fault that the animal would not be sold.

    Learn from this mistake, always have everything in writing. If it comes out of a breeders mouth than have them write it down. Vicki
     
  10. All country

    All country Well-Known Member

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    She had decided she didn't want to mess with milking this season. She could not legally sell the milk here anyway. She informed me that leaving the kids on the dams saved her work. I was surprised at this at the time because the reason our family has goats is for the delicious milk.

    I was willing to pay this amount for these goats because as they were to be left on their dam for a full 3 months I believed they would be a bit healthier.
     
  11. livestockmom

    livestockmom Well-Known Member

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    Im sorry you are having such trouble, we also have had dealings with a bad character too, I wouldnt take the buck and have any more conection to this person, but would send a letter like you talked about telling her if the matter of returning the money is not settled in 10 days, you have no other choice but to take her to small claims court.... Im sorry she made those upsetting comments, I dont think she really spoke to anyone about your financial situation, sounds like she just kept pulling random excuses out of a hat...ask her why she didnt contact you by mail and you will likely get more of the same strange comments....
    Gosh, you would think she would care more about her reputation.
    I know the right buck is out there for you.
    Blessings.....
     
  12. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    that doesn't guaranty you healthy kids. think about cae cl or mycoplasm. all can be prevented with heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk. i think it is important for your future herd sire
    susanne
     
  13. burfer

    burfer Well-Known Member

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    I raise Chihuahuas along with the goats, but my experience with a dog/puppy contract is more than with the goats. Anyway, when someone leaves me a deposit, it is with the understanding that it is NON-REFUNDABLE. BUT if you do not have anything in writing saying this, she is one sorry rat to keep your money. If everything you are saying is correct (I am not disputing your word, but I don't personnally know you, no offense) then dang skippy if I would get my money back AND I would NEVER buy anything from this lady. I would rather pay more money and deal with someone honest. This is the way I would look at it: she has your money, you don't have your goats, so your money needs to be returned. Sounds like she didn't try real hard to get in touch with you either. I am not a lawyer, but I would think that legally she would be responsible for giving your money back, especially since there are no signed agreements. If you had a signed agreement, I would think she would still have to have proof she tried to get in contact with you. Ask her for the dates and times she tried to call you, bet she will be thinking fast on that one. :soap:
     
  14. All country

    All country Well-Known Member

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    burfer, no offense taken

    There was no written contract. I will not be quite as trusting next time. I will demand to see all the healths and registration papers before making a deposit and will expect something in writing.

    As for phone records, I now have proof that our phone was definitely not having problems. I also looked at my phone bill(long distance)and saw where I had actually tried to contact her in April. I have copies of family members and some friends phone bills during the month of April showing when they had called me. The phone company is sending me a form showing that we have been customer with them & had uninterrupted service since 1988.
     
  15. animal_kingdom

    animal_kingdom Well-Known Member

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    No all she needs to show you is HER phone bill showing her calling you. I didn't realize it was long distance. Good for you on that one!

    Now....

    GO AT IT!

    Maybe you want to tell us all what town and state she's in so we all stear clear...(if you didn't already tell us)
     
  16. Michael W. Smith

    Michael W. Smith Well-Known Member

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    What a mess!! At least you have learned a valuable lesson - always get everything in writing!

    The lady sounds like a swindler. I would send her a certified letter stating you want your money back, and if you don't get the refund back within X number of days, you are going to the magistrate to file papers.

    Then proceed if no money is refunded. If you have the proof (as you state you do), she will end up having to pay you your refund, plus the magistrate fees and I believe you can even attach some on for your troubles.

    Be glad this deal fell through, as I wouldn't trust this lady at all! Good luck and do let us know the outcome.

    And do let us know her name so anybody here will stay clear of this dishonest lady.
     
  17. All country

    All country Well-Known Member

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    I feel uncomfortable posting her name publicly. If you are looking to purchase goats from an Oberhasli breeder in the Lucerne Indiana area you are welcome to pm me. I will be honest about my experiences. I am now aware of 2 breeders in the area that would be best to avoid. There are some very reputable goats breeders in the area.

    I guess we had always been blessed in our dealings in the past as the sellers were very upfront and honest with us. In the 8 or more years we have had goats we have never before had any problems. Yes, I have learned a valuable lesson!

    Today I did speak to a legal consultant who is a friend of ours. She is assisting me in the matter.
     
  18. TexCountryWoman

    TexCountryWoman Gig'em

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    There's always one bad apple. Most goat folks are so great. I was ripped off recently though and I remain quite steamed. It is in regards to two LaManchas. I bought two LaMancha does, one fullblood, one mixed and one fullblood unrelated buckling. I paid in full for the two does and paid 80$ for the little buckling plus worked 1 week at the dairy in the hot Texas sun, milking twenty goats day for this woman. I was supposed to get the registration papers on the buckling and on the fullblood doe. Since then, the buckling and doe have reproduced giving me a set of doelings. This is awesome stock with wonderful udders. I still don't have the papers. I have called and called, my husband has called. The woman uses "illness", or my papers are all stuffed in boxes and I'm behind", or our truck caught fire", on and on. A year and no papers. I have wonderful goats and no papers. A new generation of does and no papers. I plan to get a new Reg. buck and upgrade with him. These goats are that good. What a waste of years and effort. I am still burned up.
     
  19. lmoliver

    lmoliver Member

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    All Country:

    This sounds like some of the messes I walked into when I first got started with goats so many years ago. We could swap stories all night!! Let me just say this: I put hundreds of dollars down on bred does.....I feel your pain and frustration.

    I raise Oberhasli, too. I bought some of my first OB does from a lady named Carole Siders in Lagro, In. I'm sure if you go to her you'll be happy. I think I heard that she has a well bred buckling for sale, too. I doubt that he's quite that cheap because she has invested in some expensive herd sires.

    I live in Ohio just across the Oh/IN line off I70. If I can help you out, I'll be happy to. I don't have a buck to sell you unless you want one who is just born.

    Linda

    PS because of CAE and other diseases transmitted from dam to kid, almost all reputable breeders of breeding stock artificially raise kids on pasteurized goat milk and/or replacer.
     
  20. lmoliver

    lmoliver Member

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    Ms Tex: you got ripped off. Do they have tattoos? You may be able to go thru ADGA if they are registered. The lost papers can be duplicated and then transferred. I had a mess like this, too. By any chance did you get a bill of sale? Do you know their registered names?

    I bought a goat and got her dam's papers. I thought I would never get it straightened out but eventually after a lot of frustration, we got it straight, and I was sitting there with a beautiful set of triplet does, too. Was tempted to register them under her sister's name. Anyway, if you can get this to the point where all you ahve to do is take the info to the lady and have her sign her name to the bill of sale and transfer and she doesn't have to find anything, etc, you might not have to upgrade and you will preserve the value of these animals. Good luck.