preditor controll

Discussion in 'Homesteading Questions' started by Unregistered-1427815803, Mar 20, 2004.

  1. we have a small endangered population of marmots here, and they've been trying to stop them from disapearing.One of the main causes of the decling population is preditors- specifically wolves and eagles.So- after considerable study, the wildlife branch decided to shoot half a dozen eagles and a wolf pack that was targeting this marmot population.
    You guessed it!The very same groups of ''armchair environmentalists'' who were demanding the government''do something'' about ''saving the marmots''now is all up in arms because they did!
    Presumably they wanted a ''grant'' to teach the preditors to become vegetarians........
     
  2. Laura

    Laura Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,223
    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    Location:
    OlyPen
    I heard this on Canadian radio station the other day how they are shooting Golden Eagles because they are eating the rockchucks.
    What happened to save the eagles and save the wolves crowd!?!?

    Next on the agenda, SAVE THE NORWAY RAT
     

  3. Jeff Hathaway

    Jeff Hathaway Active Member

    Messages:
    33
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2004
    Location:
    Ontario
    I assume you're referring to the Vancouver Island marmot. Can't say I know a lot about them, other than a few facts gleaned from a quick search.

    However, if what I read is correct, it makes perfect sense to shoot the eagles as a short term measure. Golden eagles aren't endangered, or even particularly rare in western Canada. Nor are wolves, by the way.

    On the other hand, I don't see this as an effective way to manage the population for the long term. Other things would need to be done to restore their numbers and their ecosystem so that they can persist without direct human intervention, which should be the ultimate goal. Hopefully controlling the predators won't distract attention from other recovery initiatives.

    Saving the norway rat is unlikely to be an issue, except perhaps in Norway. They are an introduced species here, and around the world, which has done untold amounts of harm to other species. It'd be nice if we could find a way to endanger them!

    Jeff Hathaway
     
  4. Fact is, there are a lot more eagles and wolves than Vancouver Island marmots[ an endangered subspecies], and eagles and wolves snack on marmots.The whole thing of course shows how rediculous the environmental croud is- they would have us believe everything can be turned into vegetarians.T'aint so!
    The reasons why the populations have dwindled are pretty complex and it probably has to do something with the wolf population- when I was a kid 40 odd years ago nobody believed there were wolves on Vancouver Island at all- then something happened and the population exploded.The wolves have pretty well wiped out the blacktail deer[ 90% decline]and they have put pressure on the cougars, which are now seen frequently in the suburbs[which is where the deer retreated too]Wolves being oportunistic preditors will take anything they can kill, and with the decline in deer populations, marmots were on the menu.
    The big thing, of course, is all the animal rights groups are now screaming about killing ther wolves and eagles, when they were the ones demanding the government''do something''[ which means give them grants to''study'' the marmots]When the government actually did something- remove the preditors, they screamed even louder-of course, most of these people have never set foot in the woods anyway- they confine their ''protests'' to shopping malls and putting ''save the marmot''
    bumper stickers on cars
     
  5. i HaTe You

    i HaTe You Guest

    whoever thinks killing eagles wolves and cougers is ok you should go see how you feel when your shot to DEATH!!!!!!!!

    i dont think you'd want that
    so why is it ok to kill animals????
     
  6. Kirk

    Kirk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    376
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2003
    I hear the Golden eagle taste like a cross between a California Condor and a Great Northern Spotted Owl.


    I HaTe You,
    You stupid nabi pambi, why don't you crawl out from under your rock and realize that animals are a resorce which needs managing. Why don't you go trespass somewhere and climb a tree to "save" it. Quit burning up our natural resources using a computer and everything else you do to pollute the environment. While your at it why don't you log in and use your screen name instead of hiding, you coward!

    Kirk
     
  7. getting ''shot to death'' isn't pleasant, but I suppose in the grand scheme of things is a much better alternative than getting ripped to pieces , dying of starvation, or disease.The fact is, everything is born, lives and dies.There is a certain element in our society that would have us believe that not shooting an annimal means it lives forever- and when it's time has come, peacefully ''goes the sleep''.Or equally, killing an annimal is somehow ''wrong''but if it dies by being ripped to pieces by a preditor, starves to death, or succumbs to disease- that is ''ok'' because it is somehow ''natural''.
    What we have here is a unique situation of a small endangered species that is going to be extinct in the very near future , basically because preditors are wiping them out.I agree preditor control is and can be only a small part of the overall picture- but if not addressed immediately- no amount of other habitat factors are going to be relevent- because there will be no more Vancouver Island marmots.
    And one futher point-''cruel'' only exists in human terms- a wolf hamstringing a doe isn't being ''cruel'' it's only fulfilling it's role as a preditor.However- neither am I being '' cruel''when I shoot the same deer to feed my family.And- if one wishes to extrapolate the environmental impact- I make far less impact on the flora and fauna of the environment when I walk into the woods, shoot a deer, and leave, without disturbing any other part of the eco system.Conversly, the vegetarian/ vegan must till the ground, change and displace the whole enviroment of natural plants and annimals that used to live there, just so he can plant a crop- a major disruption of the natural eco system..
     
  8. Jeff Hathaway

    Jeff Hathaway Active Member

    Messages:
    33
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2004
    Location:
    Ontario
    Well said, Unregistered!

    Any idea on what the wolf numbers are compared to historic levels (not 40 years ago but perhaps 100), and what has caused the recent increase?

    Also, any info on what other steps are being taken, i.e. habitat restoration, setting aside of conservation reserves, etc.?

    Jeff Hathaway
     
  9. westbrook

    westbrook In Remembrance

    Messages:
    1,600
    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    "Save the Planet...Kill yourself"
     
  10. Larburlingame

    Larburlingame Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    262
    Joined:
    May 28, 2003
    Location:
    Georgia
    Why do people support evolution and then ignore the part about the survival of the fitest?

    Animals have be disappearing off the face of the earth for 1000 of years.
     
  11. signifiacant steps have bben taken to ensure suitable habitat for the marmots, but the immediate concern was stopping them all from being eaten.
    What the historic wolf populations were is unclear- they were there, but existed in small numbers for many years, and then the numbers exploded, resulting in about a 90% decline in deer populations.Logging roads were a major factor, enabling the wolves to travel widely with relative ease.
    When the Fish and Game department wanted to reduce the wolf population to rallow the deer population to recover, there were significant protests made by environmental groups.What happened was the wolves ate out their food supply and starvation was widespread.But- the marmots were also a target fotr the wolves, once the deer were gone.Hunting was not a factor in the decling deer population- the limits were reduced, but this was irrelevent- the deer simply weren't there for either wolves or hunters.
     
  12. this mornings news reported 7 more marmots being eaten,so this species may well become extinct.Funny, isn't it- people become paranoid about preditr controll- you'd think they truely believed that if a preditor wasn;t removed, they would live forever.Somehow the have the notion that starvation, disease etc are acceptable because they are ''natural'', but human intervention is ''cruel''
     
  13. bgak47

    bgak47 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    936
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Marmots are just moutain rats, or maybe rabbits.If this particular straine of moutain rat is being threatened by predators, maybe it's time that it goes away !
     
  14. Believe it or not, this is shaping up to be a big issue out here.This morning's newspaper had an editorial decrying shooting the eagles, wolves and cougars that were decimating the endangered marmots.Their proposed ''solution''was to hire ''shepards''who would protect the marmots from being supper.Nice idea, but cougars and wolves hunt mainly at night, and how you stop an eagle dropping out of the sky to scoop a marmot, I really don't know.
     
  15. Jeff Hathaway

    Jeff Hathaway Active Member

    Messages:
    33
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2004
    Location:
    Ontario
    Shepherds? Oh boy... I suppose they might help, but you're right- hard to stop those diving eagles!

    "Marmots are just moutain rats, or maybe rabbits.If this particular straine of moutain rat is being threatened by predators, maybe it's time that it goes away !" Interesting statement. By the same logic, though, eagles are just big hawks, or maybe like crows. Cougars are just oversized kittycats.

    Why should we try to save any species? Maybe we shouldn't- some people certainly feel that way.

    However, most of us think that we should take reasonable steps to ensure the survival of species, especially when it is VERY likely that the reason for their endangerment is not simply that they are naturally becoming extinct but because of significant consequences of our actions- logging, mining, road-building, urbanization, etc.

    Is it too late for the Vancouver Island marmot? Maybe. Some species have recovered from worse (not by much) circumstances after tremendous efforts by people to save them. Perhaps the most important thing though, is to learn to modify our actions to prevent this from happening to other species, so that we don't need to spend huge amounts of time and money managing them.

    Unregistered, I'm sure other steps are being taken, I'm just wondering if you knew of any specifics. I'm not very familiar with the situation, but I'm interested.

    Jeff Hathaway
     
  16. while they can't reverse logging or logging roads, they have done a number of things- including live trapping some breeding pairs and raising some young, to release back into the wild.They are attempting to re establish some additional colonies to make them less vulnerable.Also they have done a lot to create public awareness[humans- stay away, please!]But- the immediate threat is predation and they did something about that too- which is what all the fuss is about.I'm all for not artificially enhansing habitat simply to boost populations , but sometimes when a species is in immediate danger of extinction, some intervention is neccesary.
     
  17. bearkiller

    bearkiller Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    252
    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2003
    Location:
    Northern California
    Guess I did my part. Thousands of years ago when I first learned to shoot I developed those skills by shooting those rock chucks and Beechy ground squirrels. Am I single handedly responsible for the demise of those chucks????

    IN fact all this commentary about the poor endangered chucks offers great amusement to those who know how to read. Why? Very simply, you are wasting your whining and sniveling about the chucks at a time in history when "we" (meaning all of us) are part and party of the largest mass extinction in modern history. Perhaps even all of history including 65 million years ago with the death of the dinosaurs.

    Go do your homework on the extinction "problem" and you'll find the bloody marmots are the tinyest drop in the bucket.

    bearkiller
     
  18. bgak47

    bgak47 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    936
    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2003
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    I can give you a solution to the problem. Remove All humans(including you) within 100mi. Of course, we can't do that. So, we will have to be satisfied with the capture of some breeding pairs of this rodent, & Hope that they breed as well as they usually do.
     
  19. I'm a hunter , fisherman [ not''fisher''] and outdoorsman.I'm no tree hugging radical, but I also believe we were given the job of being stewards over the land, and if we can do something to keep a species from disapearing forever, we should.In this case it involves shooting a few non endangered eagles , wolves and cougars.I'm just documenting the ''conflict'' between armchair environmentalists, most of whom have never set foot in the woods.And- I was brought up to repect all life-not to kill for the sake of killing.My dad taught me that apart from vermin, ''if you shoot it, you eat it''.Pretty simple ethics.
     
  20. Jeff Hathaway

    Jeff Hathaway Active Member

    Messages:
    33
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2004
    Location:
    Ontario
    I'm with you all the way, Unregistered. While I am solidly an environmentalist (not the armchair variety), I am also a fisherman, and as of last year, a hunter. Also a paddler, SCUBA diver, hiker, etc.

    bgak has a point, but excluding humans is almost certainly not enough once things get to the stage they're at now from the sounds of things.

    bearkiller, I assure you that I know how to read. Nor am I whining or snivelling. In fact, I haven't shed a single tear, nor lost any sleep, over the marmots. However, I am interested in what's going on, and will post my generally educated views about conservation, which you can laugh at if you choose.

    I am very aware of the 'extinction' problem- more appropriately problems as there are many separate issues such as habitat loss, pollution, etc. I've done lots of homework, and know already that the marmots are just a blip in the larger picture. But, that doesn't mean that we should do nothing. And, in fact, I spend the vast majority of my time working to do things to help- educating people, promoting & doing habitat restoration projects, raising money for organizations which buy land for habitat (not animal 'protection' or 'welfare'!), reducing my fossil fuel use, etc.

    If anything that I do qualifies as wasting time, it is most certainly the time that I spend here at Homesteading Today!

    Jeff Hathaway