Panacure & fecal count

Discussion in 'Goats' started by Ellie5, Aug 20, 2005.

  1. Ellie5

    Ellie5 Well-Known Member

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    I had my vet do a fecal on one of my does. He left a message on my answering machine that the doe had 2-3 ???? per field? I couldnt understand the ???? part of his message. Can someone tell me what this is, and is this a really bad wormload?

    Also, We had wormed with Cydectin & apparently there was no change in the wormload. He recommended worming with Panacure(sp?), of which I will have to order as I have none. Is Panacure okay to give to pregnant does (Exposed mid-july). He said to dose with Panacure for 2 days in a row..

    Thank you!
     
  2. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Count the number of parasite ova in all six columns on one side of the slide then go to the other side and do the same count. ((So 2 to 3 per chamber would give you 12 to 18 per side or 24/36)))

    Add the number of ova from both sides and multiply by 50. ((24x50=1200)) ((36X50=1800)) Worm milkers when you get 1000 eggs or more, bucks and dry does worm at 2000 eggs.

    These are the basic rules for using a McMasters slide. For my farm I would not worm if these were milkers IF (and isn't there always an if with me :) these were haemoncous (barber pole worms) 300 during spring and early summer, 3000 fall and winter, are the numbers I use. If these were strongieds I wouldn't worm anyone here unless the number was in the 3000's, and we have never had numbers like that, but if I did I may choose to use Panacur...well no, honestly I would choose to use Valbazen at 1cc per 10 pounds given orally or Levamisole.

    It's important when you go to all the trouble to have a fecal ran that it includes all the information. What worm eggs were identified? What was the number now compared to the number before? How long since you used the Cydectin and did you use it orally? We have such profilactic long term residue from cydectin it's really hard to believe that any area would see resistance to Cydectin at this point and time. If you are going to use panacur, especially at a dose the vet is giving you, and hopefully a small herd with having to give it again the next day (what for?, if it works so poorly you have to dose 2 and 3 times, why use it?) but I would run another fecal in 7 to 10 days and see if it even worked to kill the eggs he was so concerned about. Panacur and safeguard have such a small window of opportunity to use, some strongides, and tapes, and both at huge doses always with instructions to use for 3 days or 2 days or repeat (rolly eyes here)) which always sounds like someone is guessing, not knowing. Valbazen is a white wormer also, it is much more broad specturm. Do not use any wormer in the first 50 days of pregnancy unless the does is so dibiliatated by worms that it is worth the risk. Any drug with liverfluke or lungworm control will and cause implantation problems, which includes all of our best wormers.

    Most vets will have your worm with any eggs on slide, which we all know is spitting into the wind. Vicki
     

  3. Ellie5

    Ellie5 Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to print your explanation of the egg counts for future use. This is the first fecal I've had done so please bear with me on this!

    I wormed all my goats with Cydectin (orally) right after the first fecal at which time he only identified a family of worms the name of which I didn't recognize. The second follow up fecal (this one) he said they were strongyles. His message said "at almost 2 weeks after the cydectin, the egg counts are right about where they were when we started, 2-3 ???? field". And that he would use Panacure for two days, then follow up in 2-3 months.

    This doe isn't pregnant, But I have two who may be and thought I should worm all of them at the same time? All their eyelids are pale, not pink, and this one doe I tested just doesn't seem to be gaining as much as her sister so I had her fecalled thinking it might be worms.

    Sooooo, if I'm reading your message correctly, this doe only has 1200-1800 count on the eggs and is such a low # that worming isn't necessary at this time? She's only 7 months old, not a milker. Perhaps my concerns about her not gaining & palness of eyelids prompted him to instruct me to worm just in case? I'm starting everyone on some iron supplements also to bring their iron level back up to normal.

    Thanks Vicki!
     
  4. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    You had a good weight on her and gave her enough orally? If the number is all strongides than it is a large number, rarely are all the eggs the same thing though. You could also have a kind of strongies that Cydectin won't work for you in your area. Panacur is also very expensive and the same drug as Safeguard, exactly the same, so why use the more expensive vet form of the same drug. And Valbazen and Levamisole are both the same drug class, so why not use them instead, that will give you a more broad specturm kill with less drug. Valbazen is 1cc per 10 pounds, I use it on my kids for their 3, 6 and 9 weeks worm, than it's 12 weeks and weaned on Cydectin than fecal counts from then on (we haven't wormed yet) they will get hit with Cydectin Oct 1st before being bred. I worm the does the day they kid, and then 10 days after kidding I do hit them with Valbazen (because Cydectin does not get the 4th stage larve of barber pole worms) and also because only the white wormes touch tapes. And once again we haven't had to worm since mid April, the girls will be rewormed beginning of Oct prebreeding though. The injectable form of Levamisole is probably one of the cheapest wormers to use....remember though you have to have good wieghts on your goats with it, too much and you will see neurological problems and slobbering, although it doesn't hurt them, but at 3cc per 100 pounds given orally out of the injectable container, it's cheap to use and works really well if you aren't resistant because of the overuse of Safeguard. It also unlike Safeguard and Panacur will help with other stomach worms.

    If you don't have any wormers but Cydectin and you are just going to get something from the vet than of course you have to do what he says.

    Using iron tonics isn't going to help until you get rid of the blood sucking parasite (usually barber pole worms)...and honestly good feed, great hay or alfalfa pellets, and a really good mineral mix works best.

    Really look into your mineral feeding program if this is a chronic problem in your herd. I would go so far as to say that most problems with cocci and worms ongoing, especially problems being seen in a 7 month old, is from nutritional stress. Are you dealing with the copper issues in your area? A good loose mineral, no added salt in any form, and a mineral they readily consume?

    Dealing with your goats as a whole rather than treating symptoms is the best kind of managment to have. One problem always means there is another underlying problem going on. Why having gal friends in your area at goat club is simply better than relying on vet assistance with things like worms and feed mangement. All of us have friends who we pick their brains when we run into a problem like this.

    Check out the FAMACHA chart, it would have you worming with the mucous color you are talking about. Because your egg population in the fecal doesn't really tell you the whole story of how many blood sucking moms are actaully in your does intestine.

    Also when you worm, worm in the early morning, and put the girls, the whole pen, not ever just one goat, worm the entire pen.....out in an area the goats don't live in, even if it's in the trailer under a shade tree. This way all the eggs and adult worms and larve they poop out won't be reinfecting their pasture and barn. Vicki
     
  5. Ellie5

    Ellie5 Well-Known Member

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    hmmmm Food for thought. No, I'm going to buy the wormer. I'll take your suggestion on the other wormers & go that route. Makes sense to me! He didn't say any other worms were present, but I'll call him tomorrow to verify.

    The goat is 50#, and we wormed for 110#'s with cydectin.

    Thanks again!
    Ellie