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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a boer doe that has kidded twin girls that have parrots mouth i.e. longer top lips and short lower lip.

I know the reason to this is because I experimented with line breeding or inbreeding depending on how one looks at it, but basically I bred a father to her daughter. So this had revealed to me that the buck must have a recesive gene for parrot mouth since he is the one presenting 75% of the gene in the offsprings.

My questions are:
1. If for example these kids make it to adulthood and I cross them to a different boer buck or another breed altogether will this result in kids that will be without parrot mouth?
2. How bad can parrot mouth affect the animals? Will they fail to eat and need to be hand fed all the time?
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I had a filly that ended up with a parrot mouth due to an accident. She was unable to bite grass off to eat it. My vet gave me a letter stating her parrot mouth was not genetic so she could be bred.

Please, do not breed them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
What do you mean entire genetic line?
Do you mean that I get rid of the dam and sire and also the parents of the dam? Of course the common denominator is the sire of the parrot mouth kids who is also the father of the sire of their mother but if be has that as his only bad trait should I get rid of him while he has produced me very healthy and faultless kids before? And any new buck that I bring in how will I know it does not have rececive gene for bad trait?

Below are pictures of kids born by this buck.
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Yes, the entire genetic line. The dam also, as she is related to the original faulty buck. What you have done here is take a gene that shows up only occasionally, and by inbreeding you have concentrated it so that it shows up much more often. You have effectively bred this trait into your goats and you will have a high rate of defective babies from now on. If you keep more of the same lineage they will produce more of the same defect. Get rid of the entire lineage, once again.
 

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I vote for not repeating that breeding for sure. Keep an eye on the pedigrees and add an outcross.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yes, the entire genetic line. The dam also, as she is related to the original faulty buck. What you have done here is take a gene that shows up only occasionally, and by inbreeding you have concentrated it so that it shows up much more often. You have effectively bred this trait into your goats and you will have a high rate of defective babies from now on. If you keep more of the same lineage they will produce more of the same defect. Get rid of the entire lineage, once again.
But the only instance of inbreeding we have done is one, so I have effectively only conccentrated the gene with bad trait only on the inbred kids. So why remove the entire linage? What if for example its only the buck that has this defect and the inbred kids got it because of that yet on the non inbred kids maybe the gene is reduced cause their mother does not have the same gene?

And what the use of crossbreeding it can not be used to correct such defects? I have heard many times people talk about using outcrossing for correcting a defect in animals. Whats your take on that?

And the link you shared does I did not see the % heritability of parrot mouth. Could you kindly share?
 

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I have heard many times people talk about using outcrossing for correcting a defect in animals
The best way to "correct" defects is to not breed animals with known defects.

And any new buck that I bring in how will I know it does not have rececive gene for bad trait?
You won't know it doesn't.
You do know the one you have now does.
You know those kids do too.

It's ultimately your choice to make, but I don't foresee anyone here telling you it's a good idea to knowingly breed defective animals.
 

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But the only instance of inbreeding we have done is one, so I have effectively only conccentrated the gene with bad trait only on the inbred kids. So why remove the entire linage? What if for example its only the buck that has this defect and the inbred kids got it because of that yet on the non inbred kids maybe the gene is reduced cause their mother does not have the same gene?

And what the use of crossbreeding it can not be used to correct such defects? I have heard many times people talk about using outcrossing for correcting a defect in animals. Whats your take on that?

And the link you shared does I did not see the % heritability of parrot mouth. Could you kindly share?
Percentage of heritability of parrot mouth is research you need to do, not me. These goats are not my problem.
Look. I could get into a long discussion on genes and heritability with you. But I don't really have time today, so I will try to explain it simply. You say parrot mouth is a recessive trait, and that means one copy of the gene must be inherited from EACH parent. Are you still with me here? That means the dam carries the gene as well as the buck.

Breeding animals, as a rule, should be as free as possible from genetic defects. By continuing to breed this line you will continue to see defects. This goes for BOTH the dam and the site's lineage. Breed junk, and you get junk. If you are okay with breeding junk then carry on. Usually breeders strive to improve a breed they are working with, not perpetuate totally avoidable defects.

For my own part, I've never dealt with parrot mouth and dont know much about it. But if it is recessive like you said it is, that is how it works.
 

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Here is a good discussion about it from another site.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Percentage of heritability of parrot mouth is research you need to do, not me. These goats are not my problem.
Look. I could get into a long discussion on genes and heritability with you. But I don't really have time today, so I will try to explain it simply. You say parrot mouth is a recessive trait, and that means one copy of the gene must be inherited from EACH parent. Are you still with me here? That means the dam carries the gene as well as the buck.

Breeding animals, as a rule, should be as free as possible from genetic defects. By continuing to breed this line you will continue to see defects. This goes for BOTH the dam and the site's lineage. Breed junk, and you get junk. If you are okay with breeding junk then carry on. Usually breeders strive to improve a breed they are working with, not perpetuate totally avoidable defects.

For my own part, I've never dealt with parrot mouth and dont know much about it. But if it is recessive like you said it is, that is how it works.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with you or anything. I'm just asking the questions I have in my head to get light on the matter.

If I may ask also, so the buck is called BMB and the doe he has been breeding is called Bahati who is the one who gave birth to Neema. Neema is the doe what I have bred to her father BMB and she gave twins with parrot mouth - I belive cause of inbreeding.

My question is would this mean I need to also get rid of Bahati or just BMB, Neema and her kids?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Here is a good discussion about it from another site.
Thanks for your inputs Alice and sharing the link. I have learnt a thing or two from that discussion on the link. What is clear to me is that the issue of parrot mouth is not yet well researched to say whether its genetic or congenital. Therefore, since my buck has never given a kid thats parrot mouthed when bred to unrelated animals and only done so when mating his own daughter I will not get rid of him just yet. Instead I will try him again to see how many offsprings will have the same problem. If I get one kid out of 20 the pros will be outweighing the cons since my buck pricudes offsprings with amazing growth rate - my kids attain 30 kg in 3 months and 65kg at 12 months. I find this to be good growth rate.

This is the buck that I use. And he is now over 100kg being shy of 3 years.
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I agree with your analysis. You identified what could be a bad genetic cross.

Next year, make sure your breeding program focuses on out crosses. If you have any parrot mouth kids next year, you can make an informed decision.
 
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