Non GMO great website for buying seeds

Discussion in 'Gardening & Plant Propagation' started by lgrandmaitre, Feb 28, 2016.

  1. lgrandmaitre

    lgrandmaitre Well-Known Member

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    Found great websites that sells non - GMO and heritage seeds

    https://hawthornfarm.ca
    and
    https://www.heritageharvestseed.com/
    I bought All my Seeds this year from them and it looks like all of the seeds i planted for early tomatoes have sprouted in my green house and are doing great.
    More information and videos about Hawtornfarm.ca and HeritageHarvestseeds.com
    http://petitehomestead.blogspot.com/2016/02/Hawthornfarms.html

    I will be updating the status of the plants throughout the year from
    http://petitehomestead.blogspot.com/
    Currently I live in zone 4 in Canada so im working with some cold hardy verities, plus I'm starting my plants indoors then outdoors in a cold frame
    Should be interesting :grin:
     
  2. haypoint

    haypoint Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Doubt you can find any GMO seeds for sale in any gardening catalog.

    The only GMO crops are field corn (a few sweet corn), soybeans, Canola, Sugar Beets, cotton and alfalfa. Those require a contract to even be able to buy the seeds, plus rules and regulations.

    There might be a few summer squash that are GMO, but I've never seen any.

    While there are old standby vegetable varieties that could be heritage varieties, some seed companies are marketing odd, deformed or strangely colored vegetables, that make your garden interesting to look at, but aren't really an old nearly forgotten variety that one might associate with a heritage.

    Good luck with your garden and the blog. A fan on indoor starts prevents spindly plants that topple when set outside. A cold frame outside will cook your plants on a very sunny day, so require close monitoring.
     
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  3. lgrandmaitre

    lgrandmaitre Well-Known Member

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    I wish that was true , It was very hard to find a Seed company that did not use Neonicotinoids one the corn and beans/peas.
    I am a part of the Bee Keepers guild up here in Toronto and its insane. We were visited by a scientist who travels the world to study colonies of bees (very very interesting lecture he gave)
    well the fact of the mater is you don't even need to treat beans/soy/peas with Neonicotinoids because the plight that affects them dose not attack the seed of the bean, but only corn at the seed stage.
    Soaks seeds is one of the "no go" sites that uses it on all of their seeds.
    It would do a lot of good to read the small print.

    If you go to the websites above you will be pleasantly surprised with the variety of heritage seeds they have and the up sale value for them is through the roof.
    Not to mention some verities come from Europe and Russia so they are equipped for my climate here in the north and not to mention would probably do great in zones higher then zone 4.

    Even Better one of the companies operated out of a town I went to high school once.
    ( its a very small town 6 hours north of Toronto with one groceries store and more Mennonites then anything else)
    As for the Germination rate I believe it is 97% by 2016 ( that's what the package tells me) Besides they are a company that seems to Honor their mistakes and would most likely refund you if there were any mistakes/crop failure.
    I know because they sent me a complimentary package of seeds for a package they had to send out later and not with my order of 30+ types of seeds. I think that was really kind of them!

    So i feel good knowing my money is not lining the pockets of people who have never seen dirt before.
    I'm in zone 4 so I need as many cold frames as I can get I only have a very short growing season to work with but it could be worse haha!
    Thank you very much and if you want to try any of my seeds i can send you some for free :)
     
  4. haypoint

    haypoint Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Are you confusing GMO with Neonicotinoids? Not connected.

    I think it is cute that you support this small seed company. But I can't imagine what seed companies might exist that never see dirt? Where do you think their seed plants are grown? In a Laboratory?

    What is the plight that Neonicotinoids don't protect? Not sure what you are referring to.

    I looked at the web site before I first replied. Be interesting to know how many of those varieties existed a hundred years ago.
     
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  5. lgrandmaitre

    lgrandmaitre Well-Known Member

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    oh I understand what non genetically modified means but they are also using a chemical to treat the seeds ,the seeds germinate, affect the bees ,bees die . and yes that's bad enough. But it gets worse when you see that the half life of Neonics is about 300 years...
    300 years
    can you imagine what that can do to us human beings? Neonics works the opposite of Lead poisoning , where lead poisoning stops the signals from your brain to communicate to each other , neonics will permanently open them the same way coffee or cocaine dose. Yes they have stopped Spraying neonics , that's just dandy. But the soil we use to grow the crops now is undeniably poisoned.
    I also believe there should be some seed integrity still left for generations to come and it is important to grow Non Genetically Modified , as well as donate to a seed bank. ( some thing that i am apart of and doing right now)
    If you read the Blog above i talk about the Cherokee Trail of tears bean. its going extinct
    oh also The Alepo pepper. Sound failure? its because the city has been taken over by ISIL and the entire Region is decimated . its gone.
    but its OK ( in some strange way) because I have Seeds of both. They will grow in my garden and live on and I will give people seeds for free because some one has to. then I will grow them again and again and give the seeds away more and more.
    when people do this , we in very tiny way save a bit of the planet a bit more for our kids.
     
  6. farmerDale

    farmerDale Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It is called marketing. Some companies use fear to sell their stuff. Glad you have a source for what you want.

    I have a serious question though. Saskatchewan leads the nation in honey yields per hive. The bees are doing awesome. In spite of heavy commercial agriculture all around the bees, in fact right up to the hives themselves.

    Neo nics are a nice scapegoat, but if they were killing the bees, Saskatchewan would be the first place they would be dying and affecting honey yields. But they are not dying, and honey yields are awesome. Bee hives are generally at the edges of GMO canola crops, which are sprayed with glyphosate, glufosinate ammonium, or imazamox, treated with neo nics. The result? The highest honey yields in Canada, and best bee survival and health.

    Just an observation. I do not mean to argue, I just enjoy factual observations. The neo nic thing stuck out for me. Just please know the situation, know what you are buying, and WHY you are buying it. Deceptive companies are companies I avoid.

    An example is A and W. Our family has quit darkening their doors, because they outright LIE about their products. Trouble is, most have no idea about the reality, and so think highly of the company.

    Aside from all that, please do enjoy your seeds and the production you get from them! We also have a great company an hour or so from us, who sells some cool heritage seeds. I particularly think their old wheat varieties would be cool to try. Have fun!
     
  7. lgrandmaitre

    lgrandmaitre Well-Known Member

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    you are talking about the amount of bee keepers and bee hives they have in Saskatchewan

    they uses Hives like they do the crops out there. Its on a mass mass scale
    your comparing a big lake to a small pond.
    In Ontario on the ground level where you have non company driven businesses looking after hives we can see mass losses. Because they are the whistle blowers. they are the families losing everything and asking for help because they do not operate on a mass scale and they are not backed by any mass company
    for more information visit here on bee population losses by a study done by the International Bee Keepers Association
    but it looks like to me the bee loss is on the "up and up" as it were, but this is only a study done in 2010
    http://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publications/Currie,%20Pernal%20and%20Guzman%202010%20Honeybee%20colony%20loses%20in%20Canada.pdf

    the CBC covered this story about pestisides and the wetlands here
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/pesticide-contaminating-prairie-wetlands-scientist-1.2482082

    Her research has found the chemical is commonly showing up in wetlands in concentrations at least three to four times higher than what has been deemed habitable for insects.
    ""
    "In some cases we have peak concentrations that are 100 times or more higher than those benchmarks of safe levels." Morrissey said. She and her fellow researchers have sampled hundreds of wetlands and have found that "upwards of 80 to 90 per cent of the wetlands are contaminated."

    ""
    I'm no scientist but it sounds like Saskatchewan is up the creek with no paddles and a hole in their boat and

    here is another page about honey bee loss by Canadian honey Council http://www.honeycouncil.ca/saveourbees.php
     
  8. lgrandmaitre

    lgrandmaitre Well-Known Member

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    why is it that the usa and canada have 30%+ loss of bees and Europe has 3%... they also banned neonics there
     
  9. geo in mi

    geo in mi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Neither of the sites you show will ship seeds to the United States. For a seed seller that does, you can try Vesey's, a dual site which has a U. S. ordering side from which you can order quality seeds. As has been mentioned many times before, it is mostly a moot point for a company to offer garden seeds that are non-GMO, since nearly all garden seeds are that, anyway. In fact, most of the garden catalogs today have a stated, "Safe Seed Pledge" somewhere in their catalog--or some variation of it--even though my opinion is that they are simply catering to a fickle customer base that demands non-GMO, without researching and taking the time to find out they don't need to. In other words, it's just darned good marketing....... Here's the scoop from the USDA on every permitted seed/plant/foodcrop at least in the US to date: https://www.aphis.usda.gov/biotechnology/petitions_table_pending.shtml keeping in mind there are a few others in the world. And, yes, there are many of these foods which will probably in time find their way onto your supermarket shelves in one form or another.

    I Googled "Soaks seeds" and couldn't find any company with that name; did you mean Stokes? According to their Canadian catalog, in the FAQ section: "Do you have any GMO seed?
    No"

    I can imagine that the cold soils would require many seeds to be treated with certain chemicals and fungicides to prevent corn rootworm, especially, or seed rot due to cold wet soil. I sympathize with you for that fact--most seeds require at least 60 degrees F to germinate, and June 10th might not give a long enough growing time before early killing frost in the fall.

    As for the words "heritage" or "heirloom".. there is no panel, no national board of review, no association that I know of that confers that title on any plant or seed. Again, the catalog companies freely do so, in hopes you the consumer will somehow perceive that particular seed as superior---and of course buy it at a much higher price than which they obtained it from a jobber or contractor somewhere, anywhere, in the world. Any open pollinated variety is strictly in the public domain(except for a seed which carries a US Plant Patented variety designationi.e. Blue Lake 274)...;.anyone can take that seed, claim to have improved it(and maybe they have...) then rename it, and sell it.....so, I would say, in our seed buying decisions, it's always caveat emptor....

    Another fact, that in the US, the Federal Seed Act requires labeling of any seed treated with any chemical. Many of the catalogs will offer your choice....I believe Canadian seed companies would do the likewise, to prevent seeds that are treated from being eaten. Even Stokes does so, but you have to read the total descriptions to find out...

    It's undoubtedly fun to experiment with $3/fifty bean seeds, but you still gotta feed your family. It would take quite a number of growing/regrowing years going hungry to save beans enough for even a pot of soup.

    geo
     
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  10. lgrandmaitre

    lgrandmaitre Well-Known Member

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    If you need more of a sustainable way to support your family and business visit the Permaculture podcast
    http://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/archives/
    its a great wealth of information about how to make a living and sustain yourself your family and our planet. It's all fine and happy to say your homesteading and farming towards self sustainability but if your importing things to improve garden and soil longevity and to help maintain health then its not a sustainable way of life. There are a lot of researchers and scientists who are interviewed on this blog and even business people from very large companies.
    if you will only do some research before saying "its too hard, its out of reach for me ,or not profitable/sustainable" then you will be happily surprised
     
  11. haypoint

    haypoint Well-Known Member Supporter

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    OK, you understand that there are no or nearly no GMO seeds found in any vegetable seed catalog. Right?
    Neonicotinoids on soybean seeds lasts about a month. I couldn’t find anything about a 300 year half-life. Where did you read that?
    There are several chemicals used on seeds to limit mold and insect damage. Not all are Neonicotinoids.
    All honey bees die. CCD has been extensively studied. The scientific consensus is that it is caused by a combination of numerous factors. Chemical insecticides may be one of those factors.
    Citing a disparity between CCD numbers for the US and Europe and making a direct link to the differences in seed treatment is misleading. Recent climate difference and commercial hauling of bee hives all across the nation to service commercial crops are likely more significant factors.
    In nature, plants, insects and animals become extinct all the time. It is a facet of evolution. There are thousands of named varieties of apple trees. I’d guess there are as many bean varieties.
    I’m not questioning your interest in seed integrity. Because the crops that are GMO, as I listed earlier, are so limited, nearly everything in everyone’s garden is non-GMO.
    As you learn about saving seeds, you will learn that each bean variety must be grown far from the other bean varieties; otherwise cross pollination will wipe out your seed integrity. Same for squash. Someday, I’ll tell you about my Acorn/zucchini saved seeds.
    But being a member of a seed bank and growing yellow flesh watermelons and wrinkled tomatoes doesn’t make anyone a savior of the world. More akin to a unique hobbyist.
    Wouldn’t crossing two unique bean varieties to create a more flavorful bean be more likely to help the planet and brighten the future? Crossing varieties and selecting seeds from plants that exhibit insect resistance might be more helpful than being among hundreds of gardeners that just seek to keep each variety pure and unchanged?
    The comments toward the end of this web site answer some of the issues of Neonics. http://citybugs.tamu.edu/factsheets/ipm/what-is-a-neonicotinoid/
    Thankfully, insecticides that kill insects have no effects on animals, including humans.
    I’m glad you are doing this. The Blog is great. I’m sure you will learn and pass that wisdom along. Sometimes, however, a dislike for commercial agriculture will affect your selection of the truth. Be careful.
     
  12. saralee

    saralee Well-Known Member

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    Fedcoseeds.com. Low prices. They tell you where the seeds come from. Refuse to sell fungicide-treated seeds. No genetically engineered seeds/products. Boycott of Monsanto products. Avoidance of trait and utility patented varieties. Support independent farmer-breeders. Organic growers supply. Catalogue is a fun and informative read. Shipping for seeds is free if order is over $30.
     
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  13. lgrandmaitre

    lgrandmaitre Well-Known Member

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    neonics half life is 20 years.... it takes about 300 years for it to dissipate completely.
    there is no reason to put neonics on soy beans because the time they become active and the time the pests may attack them don't match, the seed is dormant at that time of the year there for no need for the pesticide.

    I don't think you understand there needs to be two different bean varieties in the first place to actually do that in the future. I did not state I was saving the world i am creating a option for my children's children to utilize.

    Did you fail High school? That's not a real problem now a days but if you are not a high school graduate you probably need to read up on Chemistry before you start commenting on chemicals.
    Just the fact you think things just "disappear " in our environment after a while you are incredibly uninformed.
    Even worse then the pesticides are what they Degenerate into which are even worse for us HUMANS then the pesticides themselves.
    But what dose a scientist know about anything? right, its not like science is based off of actual facts or anything.
    If you look at The permiculture podcast there is no ,no,no hate (in anyway ) towards "modern" farming business. We can use permaculture on a grand scale. Please do some more research
    Regards Lauraetta :)
     
  14. lgrandmaitre

    lgrandmaitre Well-Known Member

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    Here is some lectures you or any one with interest can access

    Seth Wilner-works as a holistic manager and whole farm planner among his other duties
    Permaculture to provide profitable productive broad-scale models acceptable to modern conventional farms while also caring for the farmers, consumers, planet, plants and animals involved

    here

    http://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/2012/seth-wilner/




    Mark Shepard, owner of New Forest Farm and author of Restoration Agriculture.
    n this episode we discuss four topics based around listener questions.

    What is Mark’s “Oil Cartel?”
    What place does keyline design have on a small scale site?
    What techniques does Mark suggest for water retention on a flat area?
    What tips does Mark have for starting seedlings where you are unable to water daily or weekly?
    here

    http://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/2014/marks3/

    Dr. Dennis vanEngelsdorp, a research scientist with the University of Maryland and the former Chief apiarist for Pennsylvania. Dennis has investigated colony collapse disorder and the on-going bee die off since Dave Hackenberg first reported large colony losses.

    I wanted to speak with Dennis after seeing him in the documentary “Who Killed The Honeybee?” and then happened to see a recent research paper he was involved with, as well as his TED talk “A Plea for Bees”.

    During our conversation we talk about his work with bees, the ongoing loss of bee colonies in the United States and elsewhere, the role of bees as pollinators in our food supply, and what we can do to support honeybees and native pollinators.

    Two things I really enjoyed about this particular conversation was how precise and technical the conversation got regarding the research and issues surrounding bees, while still remaining accessible. For all of his work and research, I never felt like Dennis spoke over our heads. Part of that, I imagine, come from his love and passion for bees. Listening to him describe the co-evolution of flowers and pollinators reminded me of the beauty of nature and why I love this work and want to take care of this little space of mine and build a better world by including habitat for pollinators and tend to the other species around us.
    here


    Dr. Laura Jackson, a biology professor at the University of Northern Iowa. Her focus is on issues of restoration ecology and sustainable agriculture.
    http://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/2013/dr-jackson/

    Educating yourself as much as possible will always make you more profitable and proficient, good luck on your homesteads and best of wishes
     
  15. lgrandmaitre

    lgrandmaitre Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    Here is some lectures you or any one with interest can access

    Seth Wilner-works as a holistic manager and whole farm planner among his other duties
    Permaculture to provide profitable productive broad-scale models acceptable to modern conventional farms while also caring for the farmers, consumers, planet, plants and animals involved

    here

    http://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/2012/seth-wilner/




    Mark Shepard, owner of New Forest Farm and author of Restoration Agriculture.
    n this episode we discuss four topics based around listener questions.

    What is Mark’s “Oil Cartel?”
    What place does keyline design have on a small scale site?
    What techniques does Mark suggest for water retention on a flat area?
    What tips does Mark have for starting seedlings where you are unable to water daily or weekly?
    here

    http://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/2014/marks3/

    Dr. Dennis vanEngelsdorp, a research scientist with the University of Maryland and the former Chief apiarist for Pennsylvania. Dennis has investigated colony collapse disorder and the on-going bee die off since Dave Hackenberg first reported large colony losses.

    I wanted to speak with Dennis after seeing him in the documentary “Who Killed The Honeybee?” and then happened to see a recent research paper he was involved with, as well as his TED talk “A Plea for Bees”.

    During our conversation we talk about his work with bees, the ongoing loss of bee colonies in the United States and elsewhere, the role of bees as pollinators in our food supply, and what we can do to support honeybees and native pollinators.

    Two things I really enjoyed about this particular conversation was how precise and technical the conversation got regarding the research and issues surrounding bees, while still remaining accessible. For all of his work and research, I never felt like Dennis spoke over our heads. Part of that, I imagine, come from his love and passion for bees. Listening to him describe the co-evolution of flowers and pollinators reminded me of the beauty of nature and why I love this work and want to take care of this little space of mine and build a better world by including habitat for pollinators and tend to the other species around us.
    here


    Dr. Laura Jackson, a biology professor at the University of Northern Iowa. Her focus is on issues of restoration ecology and sustainable agriculture.
    http://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/2013/dr-jackson/

    Educating yourself as much as possible will always make you more profitable and proficient, good luck on your homesteads and best of wishes
     
  16. haypoint

    haypoint Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You are right, early planted soybeans don’t benefit from neonics, because neonics break down in a month, so have lost their efficiency, through degradation be the sun, by the time the insects are a problem. Late planted soys benefit the most. Pests attack when the soil warms and the plant is growing.
    But I do understand that hybridizing beans requires two varieties. Maintaining separate varieties won’t allow the development of improved varieties that your children’s children may need. Sort of like operating a transistor museum versus developing a computer.

    Civil discourse demands that we don’t stoop to personal attacks. What chemicals do you need me to explain to you?

    I understand that when chemical compounds break down, they form the base elements they were compounded from. A good example of that is Round Up, AKA glyphosate. It breaks down to harmless compounds upon contact with soil. It isn’t going to travel up a plant, enter the eatable parts and be there at harvest time.
    Prior to Roundup, there were more toxic agricultural chemicals that leach through the soil and into the groundwater.
    What chemical compounds are formed when neonics break down due to a month of sunshine? What is left after a season?
    When I hear someone elevate a small seed company that advertises no-GMO and talks down to the large seed companies, accusing them for being out of touch, never touch soil, then it starts to look like small is good, big is bad. Just as organic is always the answer and chemicals are all bad.
    I really do not want to argue with you. I have no interest in changing your viewpoint. I just wasn’t sure you knew that no-GMO and heritage seeds were often marketing tricks. I wanted to offer you a better understanding. Would hate for you to tell your readers about a non-GMO tomato you were growing or heritage Better Boy tomato.
    CCD is worth studying. Learn that a January thaw is essential for a hive to clean house, eat and move around. Without that, they starve, AKA CCD. But if you are stuck on a seed coating being the cause, you need to broaden your research.
     
  17. DaleK

    DaleK Well-Known Member

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    Not true. Neonics aren't mainly about insects above ground, they're for larvae. In soybeans, primarily European chafers, Japanese beetles, June beetles, wireworms, which are click beetle larvae, and seedcorn maggots. Prime time for all of these is May and June, right when the neonics are working. Same pests in corn plus northern and/or western corn rootworm. Plus the evidence that neonics aren't a major contributor to bee deaths is growing by leaps and bounds.
     
  18. lgrandmaitre

    lgrandmaitre Well-Known Member

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    http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/beekeeping/538447-us-beekeepers-lost-40-percent-honey-bees-2014-15-survey-s.html

    US Beekeepers Lost 40 Percent of Honey Bees in 2014-15, Survey S
    US Beekeepers Lost 40 Percent of Honey Bees in 2014-15, Survey Says

    http://www.foodmanufacturing.com/ne...says?et_cid=4568032&et_rid=493524314&type=cta

    COLLEGE PARK, Md. (PRNewswire-USNewswire) — Beekeepers across the United States lost more than 40 percent of their honey bee colonies during the year spanning April 2014 to April 2015, according to the latest results of an annual nationwide survey led by a University of Maryland professor. While winter loss rates improved slightly compared to last year, summer losses — and consequently, total annual losses — were more severe. Commercial beekeepers were hit particularly hard by the high rate of summer losses, which outstripped winter losses for the first time in five years, stoking concerns over the long-term trend of poor health in honey bee colonies.

    The survey, which asks both commercial and small-scale beekeepers to track the health and survival rates of their honey bee colonies, is conducted each year by the Bee Informed Partnership in collaboration with the Apiary Inspectors of America, with funding from the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA). Survey results for this year and all previous years are publicly available on the Bee Informed website.

    "We traditionally thought of winter losses as a more important indicator of health, because surviving the cold winter months is a crucial test for any bee colony," said Dennis vanEngelsdorp, an assistant professor of entomology at the University of Maryland and project director for the Bee Informed Partnership. "But we now know that summer loss rates are significant too. This is especially so for commercial beekeepers, who are now losing more colonies in the summertime compared to the winter. Years ago, this was unheard of."

    Beekeepers who responded to the survey lost a total of 42.1 percent of their colonies over the course of the year.
     
  19. lgrandmaitre

    lgrandmaitre Well-Known Member

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    http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/livestock-forums/beekeeping/538447-us-beekeepers-lost-40-percent-honey-bees-2014-15-survey-s.html

    clearly I am not the only one who sees this
     
  20. lgrandmaitre

    lgrandmaitre Well-Known Member

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    http://blogs.reuters.com/data-dive/2015/05/14/the-usdas-report-on-honey-bees-is-a-buzzkill/
    Data Dive
    The USDA’s honey bee report is a buzzkill
    By Mike Corones May 14, 2015
    The USDA just released a report on the state of America’s honey bees, and the news is not that sweet.

    Bees051415-620

    As this Reuters graphic shows, beekeepers reported a loss of 42.1 percent of their colonies in 2014/2015. Summer losses were 27.4 percent, and for the first time on record exceeded the winter rate, which was 23.1 percent. More than two-thirds of the 6,128 beekeepers surveyed reported winter loss rates above the 18.7 percent rate deemed the tipping point for economic sustainability.

    Bees impact 50-80 percent of the global food supply, so the issue extends beyond healthy sweeteners. A Cornell University study reported that insect pollinators contribute $29 billion to the U.S. farm economy, and the country has an estimated 2.74 million managed bee colonies which pollinate one-third of the country’s fruit and vegetable crops.

    Indeed, the situation is serious enough to attract Washington’s attention: A subcommittee of the House Committee on Agriculture convened this week for a public hearing on pollinator health.