No Such Thing as CL-Free?

Discussion in 'Goats' started by Terre d'Esprit, Mar 31, 2006.

  1. Terre d'Esprit

    Terre d'Esprit Boer-ing Mom

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    I decided last year that I might like to try raising goats. I purchased two goats, my "test wethers." I really love them and decided to start a herd of Boers this spring. I have emailed everyone I can find with fullblood goats for sale in my state, and I have explained my situation and asked several questions, one of which is, "do you have a CL-free herd?"

    Not only am I finding that fullblood Boers are scarce in Iowa, nearly every single response has noted, "You will not find any such thing as a CL-free herd." Some have even suggested that anyone who claims such is dishonest.

    I have several questions about this. First, is that true? I can't imagine that it is, it may be hard to find a CL-free herd, but if someone has a goat w/o CL, then it's CL free, right?

    Second, I didn't know about CL when I got my goats. My son has also since gotten a dairy goat for 4H. I asked about CL when we got her, and they did have CL in their herd, but she was a bottle baby, raised in a separate barn from the does with CL, and also vaccinated against CL. I have not had any abscesses on her. I have not had any abscesses on the "test wethers" either.

    I received a response to one of my emails today saying that they did have CL in their herd, but not too much of a problem with it, and their goats had been vaccinated.

    What does all this mean? Can I get a goat that has been vaccinated, and call it CL free (as long as that particular goat has never had CL)? I know that the vaccination also makes the test results false-positive-- how does that impact "CL-free status?" What about a weanling from a doe that has had CL, but did not have any abscesses during the time the kid nursed? Will the kid get CL genetically, or do they have to "catch" it from an open sore? Should I test my goats here just to be sure I can officially be "CL-Free" around here? If they have it in their bodies but just haven't had an outbreak, maybe they do "have it." I have had them all over a year, and I've seen nothing.

    I feel like I am starting out in a good position, and bringing in disease would be stupid. I am new at this anyway, I don't need added agony! Plus, with the cross-species stuff, it just seems like I should be vigilant.

    I guess my question lies in the definition of CL-free? Is it a goat without the disease? Is it a goat from a herd without the disease? Is it a goat from a herd AND from parents without CL?

    Thanks for the patience with my newbie questions. : )

    T
     
  2. Teacupliz

    Teacupliz Well-Known Member

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    T-
    I hope to start a CL free meat goat herd. I started with some Nubian does, going to breed them the next two years to my friends clean Fullblood buck, then I will buy a newborn fullblood boer buck. I to find that all the boer herds have CL.. look for a small breeder who does not have CL or does not vaccinate. Thats my plan. ANd it irks me that meat goat farmers do not cull their CL goats-- we will never get rid of it that way.. I ask who would want to eat a goat with CL...NOt me..

    Liz
     

  3. Terre d'Esprit

    Terre d'Esprit Boer-ing Mom

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    Thanks Liz. I was thinking, too, that it was nasty to eat a goat with CL. They say it peels off with the hide, but still...

    You and I are on this side of the fence, contemplating starting a herd-- and aware of this disease-- so why would we not work hard at ensuring we don't bring it in?

    I am going to only buy one buck and two does, doing everything in my power to ensure they are CL-free. That way, like you, I can grow it without risking introducing it by bringing in a large number of new goats.

    Can you explain why you will not buy a goat that's been vaccinated for CL? Is it because of the positive test results?

    Thanks.

    T
     
  4. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

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    there are cl free boer goat herds. they might not be in your area.
    it is true that you find more cl in meat goats than in dairy goats because the different husbandry. a responcible dairy farmer would cull cl positives. the reason not to vaccinate is because of the false positive result. since your goats are already vaccinated you have to continue with this regiment.
    search around, be persistent, let them have you show test results not older than a year. if you buy vaccinated animals you could raise healthy kids from them and establish a cl free herd. in the long run you will get more money for your offsprings than other breeder if your herd is truly cl free.
     
  5. Laura Workman

    Laura Workman (formerly Laura Jensen) Supporter

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    And, FYI, CL does NOT peel off with the hide. It can be internal.
     
  6. Terre d'Esprit

    Terre d'Esprit Boer-ing Mom

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    Thanks Laura. All the reason I need not to eat a goat with CL! Eww!

    But if I buy a goat that is from a herd with CL, but it has been vaccinated, what does that really mean? That it won't bring it into my herd? Since the test will be positive, is it then not really CL free? Is there a risk of bringing a vaccinated goat into the herd?

    Sorry for all of the questions. I am thankful for everyone's help.

    T
     
  7. ozark_jewels

    ozark_jewels Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not so. There are truly CL free meat goat herds. Anyone telling you differently has just not been able to keep their herd free and probably doesn't want to feel bad about it. I have a very small herd of Boer goats. They do not have CL and never have. If I were you, I would keep looking and buy from a small time breeder who does not vaccinate and has a CLEAN herd. Go through their goats(all of them, not just the ones for sale) and look for lumps. Feel around the head, throat, front and back of the udder, the flanks, and right behind the front leg on the side. There should be no actual bumps. If you feel hard enough, you can feel the lymph glands, but they should feel normal and not swollen. I may have a few does for sale in a month or so if your interested.......Abcess free!! I do not test, but have never had an abcess in the herd. Good luck, keep looking, and don't compromise. There are CL free herds out there. :)
     
  8. Teacupliz

    Teacupliz Well-Known Member

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    Emily-- move to NY I want some boer from you...wink.
    I do not want vaccinated goats as they do test positive and can get CL from the vaccine..
    Good luck T!
    Liz
     
  9. Sarah J

    Sarah J Well-Known Member

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    I am having a hard time convincing my mother-in-law to cull her CAE positive does out of her Beor herd. She had percentage goats - Nubian does and Boer bucks...her Nubian does are CAE positive! She doesn't care and she lets them raise their own babies for the market, too. She's never tested any of them, but I can point out hte ones who are positive (one of whom *I* tested because I got a doeling from her...who also tested positive, big surprise! Guess who's not staying in MY herd of Nubians?).

    There are CL-free herd. I have not testedc my goats for CL but I have never been asked to and have never seen any abscesses, either. First abscess that comes along and they're getting tested, but not vaccinated (who wants to wonder if it's positive because of the vaccine or because they already have the CL???).

    -Sarah
     
  10. KimM

    KimM Student of goatology.

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    When I bought my Boer buck, I asked that he'd be CL tested and his test result negative even though he'd been vaccinated. The does I have now have been CL tested negative. When I buy more does, they will be CL tested before I buy them and I will gladly reimburse the test expense providing the test comes back negative.
    I have been told that any goat can get CL from the organism in the ground. We have decided that we will have any CL positive goats put down, should one crop up. I will not "manage" a CL positive goat and we will not pass the problem on to someone else. My eventual goal is to have a closed, CL-free herd.

    Good for you (all) for caring!! I've met too many people that think it's no big deal. :eek: I think it's a very big deal.
     
  11. Caprice Acres

    Caprice Acres AKA "mygoat" Staff Member Supporter

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    When you bring your new goats home, I reccomend having a separate pen apart from the other clean animals that you can keep the new animals in for a long period of time while at least two cl tests come through negative. I have never tested for cl but hope too do so soon.
     
  12. Terre d'Esprit

    Terre d'Esprit Boer-ing Mom

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    Kim-

    Are you saying that there is a test that can differentiate between a goat with CL and a goat that been vaccinated for CL? Like you, I would gladly pay for the test if it comes back negative, but if the buck has been vaccinated, then I was under the impression that it would come back positive regardless.

    Where do you do send your tests? I think that I will have my current goats tested. I have not had so much as a lump or bump since I got the goats (a year ago), but the whole point is moot if I already have CL in the goats here.

    If I did have a goat that tested positive for CL (but never showed any symptoms), and I culled it, would there still be a risk of any future goats getting it?

    I feel like I've opened up a can of worms, and for every kind, patient answer, I have a zillion more questions.

    Sorry, and thanks for being so patient.

    T
     
  13. Teacupliz

    Teacupliz Well-Known Member

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    the only way to catch the CL is from the puss from a lump that is open and draining..
     
  14. 6e

    6e Farm lovin wife Supporter

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    OK, now I have some questions......We bought two Boer does that had been vaccinated against CL, but our vet recommended against continuing to do so and against giving the shot to our other goats as the shot was not intended for goats and can have serious side effects. So, my question is, will the does that had the shot now have a weakness and contract CL more easily? We do not have any signs of CL right now.
     
  15. KimM

    KimM Student of goatology.

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    I don't think the test differentiates and I was fully expecting the test to come back positive....they didn't tell me they vaccinated until after I requested the test....but to my surprise, it was neg. Their vet and my vet both send the blood to Texas. I can get the exact address for you if you want. I called them (Texas) and also UC Davis and they both said the blood tests were very accurate. OSU doesn't accept blood anymore but requires and unbroken abcess excised from the goat. :shrug:
    Don't feel bad about asking questions. I'm kind of a newbie too and this site is full of experience! (Thank you all!!)

     
  16. goatladie

    goatladie JustALittleGoatCrazy....

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    yes it can be contracted through the open pus - but what if the CL is internal? Can't it be passed to other goats through the feces or something? Also, if a goat shows external lumps, can he be internal as well - or does the disease follow one way or the other?
     
  17. Caprice Acres

    Caprice Acres AKA "mygoat" Staff Member Supporter

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    Thats what I read. I heard that if it is an internal sore, then It can be passed on through the feces, and can have internal/external lumps. Also, some goats never get external lumps, and therefore you could be unintentionally spreading it. :(
     
  18. Terre d'Esprit

    Terre d'Esprit Boer-ing Mom

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    So, if i wanted to buy a buck from someone in my state, who has said that they did have some CL on their farm, but vaccinated against it, it would still be okay to purchase this buck, as long as I had a CL test done in advance and it came back negative?

    I would also like the address of the testing lab, KimM. I am going to test the goats I have here, since this is all a moot point if I can't be certain I'm starting out with a clean slate. My son's dairy goat was also vaccinated, and it will be interesting to see if she comes out negative. That would be good news, that she can have a neg test even with a vaccine.

    So, regarding vaccination for CL: if I have a goat that's been vaccinated, I need to keep up that vaccination each year? I guess I did not know that. : ( What if everyone here is neg?

    Thanks everyone for the discussion and the answers. I know what CL is, and have read about it, but these are all questions that weren't answered in the scientific stuff.

    T
     
  19. goatkid

    goatkid Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All Boer herds do not have CL. You may have to travel out of state to find them, but they are there. I would never buy a goat from a farm that has some CL. Farms that vaccinate for it usually do so because they have CL positive goats on their place. Some of the big commercial places that raise both Boer and dairy goats aren't as fussy about CL. They just cull the abcessed goats and send them to auction or lance the abcesses and vaccinate the rest of the herd. Some of us here in Montana have Boers in our herds and we do not have CL. My Boers and percentages aren't registered because I don't show them, but I do sell a few each year. My friend has registered and registerable stock for sale. I consider CL free to be an abcess free herd and when the goats are tested, they come back negative.
     
  20. KimM

    KimM Student of goatology.

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    I can't answer your other questions as I'm still learning too but here's the lab info for you.

    Texas Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory System
    P.O. Drawer 3040
    College Station, TX 77841-3040
    (979) 845-4314
    http://tvmdlweb.tamu.edu/