No Permits?

Discussion in 'Homesteading Questions' started by CODIACRCMP, Apr 17, 2005.

  1. CODIACRCMP

    CODIACRCMP Well-Known Member

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    Just wondering what would happen if you build without a permit? I have read my Canadian Criminal Code and there's nothing in there about a building permit.

    Thanks
    Danny
     
  2. CODIACRCMP

    CODIACRCMP Well-Known Member

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    Just wondering what would happen if you build without a permit? I have read my Canadian Criminal Code and there's nothing in there about a building permit.

    Thanks
    Danny
     

  3. Alex

    Alex Well-Known Member

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    The laws are not in the criminal code: they are in the Building Code, or in Vancouver for instance a Building Bylaw. That is because Vancouver has its own Charter, somewhat unusual in Canada; most of the rest of BC, Canada, and the United States of America use a Building Code, and violations are against it.

    If you are in a permit area, or city, etc., then you could be finned, double the permit fee, or some other fine, and you would be, red tagged -- and you, and all others, would not be allowed to complete any further work on the site, until you got it squared away.

    Most cities and permit areas operate on a complaint basis; if there are no complaints, then no problem. The trick is not to get caught. If you live out far enough and get away with it long enough, then you just say, "This place was here for a long time, etc."

    However, permits in general are a good thing and based on science and engineering principles, which are somewhat hard to violate at any rate. Most physical laws have not changed -- ever -- so if you have a permit area requirement, then why not comply.

    Or, get yourself past the line where all but a county, or Provincial Inspector, or surrogate inspector, in the person of a licenced electrician, is required only for electrical work.

    Moving way out is not such a bad idea.

    Good Luck,

    Alex
     
  4. Ross

    Ross Moderator Staff Member Supporter

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    It wouldn't be a criminal code violation but it is covered provincially under seperate acts. A summary conviction if they choose to persue it. They could make you pay the permit fees, by adding it to your property taxes, demand modifications to the design, and/or order the building removed by a certain date and if it's not gone, by then, send in a demolision crew with a police escort at your expense (on your tax bill). Not all municipalities enforce the codes equally though.
     
  5. CraftyDiva

    CraftyDiva Is anybody here?

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    I have a funny story to tell about permits, well actually all concerned didn't find it funny, but he gets razzed to this day about it.

    Fellow worker ( so tight he squeeks) wanted to add a 2nd floor to his home for needed bedrooms (2 kids, twins on the way). So........ he and his father (retired construction worker) and uncle start work, tearing off the roof. He comes to work bragging about the work, I ask "What did the permit cost?". He respondes....."I ain't giving the city any money for permision to work on my own home." At this point the roof is gone, city inspector appears " Can I see your permit?" ........ "Don't have one, just thought I needed permits for the electric and plumbing"......playing dumb. Inspector........"Stop all work NOW!" This is in the spring (rainy season) no roof on house. At this point the wife is screaming "You cheap.......so and so!" No more bragging at work, now he's embarassed and PO'd at city. Gets a fine $600 plus has to pay double for permit another $600. Which the city made him come back 4 times with the plans to view, with things they found not right. He's saving money ain't he? The story gets better, he hires an electrican to sign for a permit ($150) but does the wiring himself to save more money. Time for final inspection rolls around, city inspector wants electrican there to sign off on work done. Electrican now tells dufus, I ain't signing anything, it's not my work and my name is on the permit. So dodo offers the elctrican $$$ to sign off after he sees the work. Well for $1000 the electrian will sign off. Uncle is a plumber so he does save some money there. So cheapsake now goes by the books with permits, after spending 3 times what it would have cost if he had done it right in the first place.
     
  6. antiquestuff

    antiquestuff Well-Known Member

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    Permits are dusgusting in my opinion-asking the govt. permission to work on your own home is absurd-I'd go where I wouldn't be bothered by them. And, forcing inspections is just an unreasonable search-unconstitutional as far as I'm concerned. How foolish that people accept this-if no one complies, what can they do? Of course, you're in Canada so I don't know...
     
  7. CODIACRCMP

    CODIACRCMP Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, I'm not building a house. Its going to be a 12x16 "shed" with a woodstove, no plumbing or electric.

    In order for it to be a summary conviction offense it must fall under the criminal code and I know for sure its not indictable, that would just be crazy lol.

    Lets say I build it. Its all done being built. If the inspector comes and see's its done, what could I do? I think I'm going to place it on concrete piers.

    Thanks for all the wonderful replys.
    Danny
     
  8. CODIACRCMP

    CODIACRCMP Well-Known Member

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    This is what I found on my provincial Building Regulation

    The Provincial Building Regulation applies to
    everyone who is building in an unincorporated area.
    This requirement means that no matter where you
    build, a permit is required, and all structures (other
    than small buildings: please see below) will be inspected
    to ensure that they meet the National Building
    Code. Those building in unincorporated areas
    will also see a change in the fees for obtaining a
    development and building permit. These rates better
    reflect the cost of providing inspection services.
    In Municipalities
    It should be pointed out that each municipality has
    the authority to adopt its own building by-laws. Accordingly,
    the Provincial Building Regulation
    does not apply in municipalities. Anyone undertaking
    building activities in these areas
    should contact their municipal office to determine
    the building requirements that may
    be in place.
    In Unincorporated Areas
    As noted above, the Provincial Building Regulation
    applies to all unincorporated areas. When you
    or your contractor plans a construction, a development
    and building permit must be obtained. The fee
    for this permit is $25.00 plus $2.50 per $1,000 of
    estimated construction costs. Once you begin to construct,
    you are required to notify the building inspector
    at various stages of the project so that building
    inspection can take place. Inspections are not required
    for accessory buildings such as sheds and
    garages or for structures that are designed for overnight
    accommodation and are less than 58.06
    square meters. Where an inspection is not required
    the cost of the permit is a flat rate of $25.00.
    GETTING A PERMIT
    If you intend to build, you will need to go to the District
    Planning Commission office serving your area
    to apply for a permit. The Planning Commission will
    help you fill in the application form and inform you
    of the other permits that may be necessary for your
    particular type of construction. Once all of the required
    permits are obtained and the Planning Commission
    is satisfied that you have met the require-
    Environment and Local Government
    If you live in an unincorporated area and need more information or wish to obtain a development
    and building permit, please contact the District Planning Commission serving your area:
    ments for that structure, a development and building
    permit will be issued. A development and building
    permit will only be issued if the structure conforms
    to the building code, unless it is exempted
    from the requirements. This permit must be
    displayed on the property where the construction
    is to take place.
    HAVING AN INSPECTION
    The Planning Commission will also inform you of
    the stages of construction at which you must ask for
    a building inspection. In order to allow time for the
    Planning Commission to prepare for an inspection,
    and to ensure that your construction project is not
    unnecessarily delayed, you will be required to contact
    the Planning Commission in advance of each
    of these stages of your project. The Building Inspector
    or Development Officer will review various aspects
    of your construction to make sure that it complies
    with the National Building Code, and advise of
    you of anything that may need to be modified in order
    to comply.


    58.06 sq meters would be like 600 some sq feet right?

    Thanks
    Danny
     
  9. leaping leon

    leaping leon Well-Known Member

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    CODIACRCMP, I hope things turn out OK for you...I wish I lived where it was easier/safer to do that sort of thing...

    Alex, I used to think permits were reasonable and good, but read on...

    I'm still hopping mad about one of our permits: we have to get a PERMIT from the county to cut trees, it will cost me over $2,000 after the inspector comes out to check that we didn't cut too many trees (we can't get electric until after the county inspects)...the law says that you're not supposed to cut ANY trees without a permit, not even one (unless they are under 4" in diameter), so people who build here clear off ALL of the trees on their lots except for the few that are required to be left because they would have to get another permit if they want even ONE more tree removed in the future...so the law that is supposed to protect the trees is motivating people to cut more trees instead!!! The only reason I can see for this is that it might save some trees where people have already built homes, but at the price of motivating people with new home sites to cut as many trees as allowed...

    And, I'm silly enough to think it's unfair, (it's government, is it supposed to be fair?); I'm leaving as many trees as I can (more than 80% of them), and I have to pay the same amount as the people who cut 99% of their trees!!! So much for saving trees.

    But at least the county is making money, right? I'm ashamed to admit that I first thought the tree-removal permit was a good thing...I hate it when people mow down ALL of the trees in order to put in huge lawns or parking lots...but look at what government can do with a good idea! They ought to make the permit work on a sliding scale, the more trees cut, the higher the permit cost (with some kind of exception made for farm or pasture land)...This also motivates builders to use farm land, no tree permits required (and no trees in the housing tracts except for the few token trees they plant)...and there goes our farms and pasture lands...there's thousands of acres of farm and pasture for sale now...it breaks my heart...I gotta find some way to convince dh that we need to move...

    And it gets worse, the permit is going to be FIVE TIMES MORE in a few weeks!!!
    Approx. $10,000!!!! They're forcing out the poor and middle class people here...I guess they're planning on making it a resort community for rich retireds (but where do the people who do the service work, the "McJobs", live?) besides living in utter poverty?

    I also found out that the mobile home dealerships have a special license that allows them to use UNLICENSED plumbers and electricians to install new mobile homes, but if you already own your own mobile home and move it, then you have to use a licensed plumber$$$ and electrician, or take a test to get a PERMIT (that's what we are doing)...I had to take a stupid test to get a PERMIT to do my own plumbing...the test asked non-relevant questions such as "How do you arrange for future plumbing to be added when your home is being built on a concrete slab?!" It's a mobile home! All I need to know is what type of pipe is required, how deep it gets buried, what connections can be used, and what slope do I need to the septic tank...(I'm using a licensed electrician, I don't have a problem with that. THAT makes sense.)

    And my husband doesn't want to move...There's got to be a better place to live, the control freaks are in charge of the local government...I'm ashamed to admit that my dh doesn't know or care much about these issues, except for when he can impress someone by repeating what I've said...He's more concerned about not being "too different".

    The law for graywater here requires that we only use the water from the bath and washing machine (O.K.), it has to be RE-CHLORINATED, blue dye added to it, stored in a special tank and THEN can only be used to flush the toilet!!! And we are headed for a water shortage in the next few decades (salt water intrusion along the coastal areas, private wells run dry when there's a drought)...come to think of it, we've been breaking the law for years, we put bath water into buckets and use it to flush the toilet...saves from 35 to 50 gallons a day...I hope the county doesn't find out, I guess they would start monitoring our bathroom to see that we don't do any more illegal flushing!!! I guess we'll have to wait until AFTER our water shortage becomes critical before they adopt a reasonable graywater law...and it's the middle class and poor people who are hurt the worst with these stupid laws...(I gotta stop here or I will really start raving!)

    I home-school, and I teach my daughters to obey the law unless it contradicts safety issues...but now I guess I'm sending them a different message...I hate that they see me breaking the law and hear me talking about breaking the law (the permit laws), but I don't know what else to do when some of the laws are so stupid...and the people who are out to make fast bucks and don't care about the environment appear to be in control of the local government...

    Thanks to everyone who has the patience to read all of this.
     
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  10. caballoviejo

    caballoviejo Well-Known Member

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    God forbid :no: individuals display initiative, make their own decsions, roll up their sleeves and go to work, and reap for themselves either the rewards of success or the consequences of personal failure.
    No, it just: YOUR PERMITS, YOUR PAPERS PLEASE!, and later YOUR OTHER PERMITS, CERTIFICATION, AND YOUR OTHER PAPERS.

    Welcome aboard Leaping Leon. Be careful you don't say anything wrong to any officials or you'll get sent to a re-education camp.
     
  11. reluctantpatriot

    reluctantpatriot I am good without god.

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    From seeing how the permit process and the planning and zoning situation is going in the county south of mine, I can only conclude the following about both:

    1) Building permits only benefit local goverment coffers with the permit cost and the additional yearly increase in taxes through improvement of a property

    2) Increases the cost of construction, making it more prohibitive for the lower class, first-time home builders and middle class segments of the population to build

    3) Encourages major developers to build major subdivisions, apartment buildings and condominium projects rather than individual homeowners

    4) Restricts the freedoms and liberties of the landowner/homeowner

    5) Discourages alternative building methods which may be less expensive, more environmentally friendly and makes better use of limited resources

    6) Encourages "snitch" behavior in individuals who don't like someone who lives next to them or in their neighborhood, i.e., the least little thing gets reported as revenge or simple dislike of someone for no real reason, especially if the person in question is a non-conforming personality for the area

    7) Makes development an artificially segregated construct whereby all businesses may end up miles away from residential areas, requiring significant travel and encourages wasteful use of available land

    8) Just because something passes code inspection doesn't mean it is necessarily quality work or materials, giving a homeowner a false sense of security

    9) Even if a contractor is licensed doesn't mean they won't cut corners or try to skimp on work or material quality

    10) Discourages home improvement by the owner which may solve a problem earlier rather than later

    11) Depending on the area, some code restrictions may be illogical, i.e., not allowing any unlicensed or non-operating vehicles to be parked outside of a garage even if the homeowner has acres of land and the vehicles cannot be seen by anyone unless they are right up close to the house, which is off of the road by hundreds of feet or more (actual restriction in the county south of mine)

    12) Discriminates against those who have limited funds and have to live in less expensive housing options, such as mobile homes, or chose to live in yurts, tipis or basic small square footage cabin style homes and forces owners of mobile home parks to never be able to replace aging mobile homes as no new ones will be allowed, but existing ones can be grandfathered in

    13) Leaves contractors/developers/homeowners in a bind when a project starts but has not reached a certain stage when the codes change during the project, thereby making the project non-compliant with the code, potentially bankrupting the project (such as starting a foundation that complied with code when the project started, but wasn't able to reach a certain percentage of completion before a new applicatable code was passed, forcing a stop order on the project and requiring the project to start over) - Actual situation in the county south of me

    14) Residents in the area around the project voice complaints, real and imagined, just because they don't like a project, yet it complied with all of the code requirements for the zoning (condominium projects on one hand and a resort owner building a low-impact, earth friendly resort using a number of quality built yurts for accomodations). In the former, residents complain about the development across the cove from their lake home taking their view, yet don't complain about other lake homes in multiple tiers which destroy the same view. In the latter, residents would rather deal with a noisy restaurant or bar or condominium project rather than have the resort owner build yurts in an environmentally responsible development which would not generate as much noise or traffic as any of the three previously stated constructions. --Actual situation in the county south of mine


    When building codes and planning and zoning come to my county it will pretty much destroy a good part of the reason people come down here in the first place, relaxed atmosphere and freedom from regulated this and that. It is not logical, just or right to tell me that I cannot live as I have been, bothering no one and causing no harm, just because a certain number of people now live in an area. Why should I be punished and have my rights trampled because it is supposedly the way of "progress"?
     
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  12. foxtrapper

    foxtrapper Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Depends entirely on the jurisdiction, what you build, etc. Can range from nothing happening to jail time and you foot the bill for the removal.
     
  13. CODIACRCMP

    CODIACRCMP Well-Known Member

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    What if I build the Cabin on 3 beams and if a inspector did come out, I could just say I bought it and then got it hauled here, put it up on concreate piers?

    I used to work for a mobile home/small building moving company so I could say I did it myself.

    Also, how do you guys feel about having to "ask" to build something on your land? Has anyone here been caught and won their case?


    Danny
     
  14. Gary in ohio

    Gary in ohio Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well, Its going to depend on where you are and what your building. Not all area require permits for every structure. I can put up any non human inhabited structure without a permit in my county, The next county south of us you can do anything without a permit.

     
  15. Oilpatch197

    Oilpatch197 Well-Known Member

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    That is how our county is setup, no permits, no nothing! :)

    I guess all the wimps moved upto Chicago Land.

    It truely is freedom, heck if it wasn't for 9/11 we wouldn't of been FORCED the dumb 911 barebones system on us!

    It really makes me Mad how all this stuff has been forced on us from the top, codes, restrictions, prohibitions, your township funded trash removal.....
     
  16. homebirtha

    homebirtha Well-Known Member

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    Nothing??? You can build anything you want with no permit? A house with no permit???????

     
  17. Darren

    Darren Still an :censored:

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    In West Virginia, you don't need a permit to build any structure in unincorporated areas unless you want to build in a flood plain.
     
  18. EasyDay

    EasyDay Gimme a YAAAAY!

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    When we first started gutting and rebuilding our house, we asked a few people about building permits:

    Closest neighbor (1/2 mi away)- "I wouldn't worry about it. No one'll care unless your neighbor complains, and I won't complain."

    Guy in Bldg Supply store- "Where you are I wouldn't worry about it."

    Code inspector at the courthouse, after talking extensively with him about county codes, DH asked "What kind of permit do I need?" Inspector's answer: "For what?" Enough said.

    The house has been wrapped in Tyvek for quite a while, while we're working on the inside. You can't miss it.... but no one has every said anything, and don't think they will.
     
  19. CODIACRCMP

    CODIACRCMP Well-Known Member

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    I know this might sound like a stupied question but what does unincorporated mean in your part of the country?

    Where the land is, theres only 8 houses with in a 2 mile area. The road i'm on is called the "smith" road and guess what? There all smiths. kids, parents, grand parents....

    On a map it says the land is in Colepitts Settlement NB. But the address is in Kay Settlement.

    Thanks
     
  20. Darren

    Darren Still an :censored:

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    Unicorporated means the area does not lay within the boundaries of any incorporated town/city/municipal government. Incorporated means an area with a set boundary with elected government officials chartered by the State of West Virginia. Counties and cities are subdivisions of the State of West Virginia. Counties can contain unincorporated areas. Cities cannot.