Need info on guns?

Discussion in 'Homesteading Questions' started by Jagger, Apr 28, 2004.

  1. Jagger

    Jagger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    61
    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Location:
    Ohio...but not for long
    Hello,

    Some of you may know that im moving to the ozarks soon. I have a .22 cal marlin rifle, semi-auto. As well as a .410 shotgun( iuse it mainly for all my hunting from rabbit to deer. I use slugs for deer here in ohio. I also have a .58 caliber flintlock it is my favorite deer rifle. Favorite rifle period.

    What i want to know is about those Rusiian rifles, military surplus. They are 7.62 mm They cost from $50-$100 round here. They come gaurenteed to fire, come with a bayonet and sling. What do u think of this weapon as a home defense piece. I also want to hunt deer with it in MO.

    What about other military rifles like czech models, or anything similar. I would like to know the good, the bad and the ugly on these weapons.
    They have others in 8 mm, 9mm, but i can not remember what they r exactly. Any info would be great.

    Thanks in advance
    Jagger
     
  2. they make a great home defense weapon but I would'nt tote one to the deer woods. Most the ammo for those guns are full metal jackets which are not good for hunting. And from my experince they don't really have any knock down power. If you are looking for a cheap deer rifle you can usally find a single shot Stevens or Harrison and Richards in .243 or 30-30 or 30-06 calibers for under $200 new or less if used. Ammo for those calibers can be found anywhere and are fairly cheap.

    Welcome back
    we are from Thornfield in ozark county.
     

  3. BrushBuster

    BrushBuster Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    118
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Location:
    va
    those guns could serve each of those purposes, but personally i would prefer the 410 for either over the 7.62 and would only pick that if those were my only 2 choices. some of the surplus guns you buy are very good guns and others are junk. i would suggest you pick up a copy of the shotgun news or the gun list. you can learn alot about the quality , prices and such from them and also have a much broader selection.
     
  4. Manny

    Manny Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    308
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    Any home defense that you are going to do will be inside your house so you can forget about any of that foreign crud that's good out to 300 yds. (Unless you are defending yourself from the FBI or the Revenuers) The best is a shotgun, easy to aim and you can load to either maim or kill, and you won't have to worry about blowing your neighbor down the street away after that high velocity round has dusted your bad guy. Remember, the life you save might be my own! Most of your deer hunting in MO will probably be in the woods so you need a short, open sighted rifle that throws a big slug to cut through the brush, a 30/30, .35 Remington or a big old 45 cal. A lever action would be good. A Bayonet??????
    Bill
     
  5. Darren in TN

    Darren in TN Guest

    Hi, Jagger.

    Russian mil.surp. rifles are an awesome deal, but I wouldn't recommend one for home defense. The Moisin-Nagant rifles (M-44 carbine and M-91 rifle) are really solidly built, have simple sights, and fire a nice cartridge. No deer, elk, or bear on the planet will be able to tell the difference between a .308 winchester and a 7.62x54mm R fired out of a Nagant. I like the M-91 (the really long rifle) and wouldn't feel under-gunned hunting deer, hogs, or black bear with it. I'm not so much a fan of the M-44 carbines just because I think the longer rifle is the better choice for the cartridge. The M-44s have a lot more blast and flash, and a bit more recoil. They are also less accurate, but handier in tight quarters.

    The Czech mausers are supposed to be outstanding (VZ-24, I think they're called?) That would be an equally good rifle for the purpose, though probably a few dollars more and the 8mm mauser ammo (7.92x57mm) is not quite so common as the 7.62x54 R has become. Turkish mausers aren't bad, either, though they are REALLY long and heavy.

    If you want something a bit more common in terms of ammo, go find an Ishapore SMLE. These were made in India and chambered in .308. They're some of the strongest and most accurate SMLEs you can find. I'm keeping a lookout for these lately.

    If you get one to hunt with, use soft points or hollow points-- the cheap and plentiful FMJ stuff isn't as good for hunting and in many places is illegal.

    If you are single and live in the middle of nowhere, you could use one for defense. However, remember that this bullet is going to go through several walls before stopping (as in, through every wall in your house and then another half a mile or until it hits something more solid, like your truck.) If you have a family or have neighbors anywhere nearby, you'd be wise to use your shotgun for defense instead. A .410 loaded with 3" #4 shells shouldn't go through more than one wall, if even one.

    Whatever you do, good luck and safe shooting!
    Darren
     
  6. EricG

    EricG Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    114
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2002
    Location:
    Mat-Su valley Alaska
    A high power rifle is not the best for in-home defense. They will go through too many walls. A shotgun is much better. Most of the energy is spent on the first wall so you don't have as much worry about what happens to innocent people in the next room. For outside home defense from critters in the hen house etc.. that's a different story and depends on where you live. The surplus rifles can be a good deal if you get one in good condition. Look for a good bright bore. The surplus ammo is cheap for practice. It may be corrosive primed so a good cleaning after using is always recomended. I have heard of folks using a cheap bullet puller (available at most gun shops that have reloading supplies) to pull the metal jacket bullet and then seating a hunting bullet on the cartridge. The bullet weights would have to match closely though and you would need a seater die and hand press to do it. Probably easier to buy a few boxes of hunting ammo and use the surplus for practice and varmints.

    Eric
     
  7. Gary in ohio

    Gary in ohio Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    3,857
    Joined:
    May 11, 2002
    The SKS would not make a good home defense rifle. Its big and heavy, the 7.62.x39 ammo is usually metal jacketed and would make go through walls with ease. Not what you want. Find yourself a short barrel (not sawed off) shotgun, Put a tactical (pistol) stock on on it and use a speed loader to load it.
    2 rounds of bird shot and the rest dear slug. If the attackers havent retreated or been scared off by two shots from a shotgun then you need to kill them and the deer slugs can handle that.


     
  8. Jagger

    Jagger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    61
    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Location:
    Ohio...but not for long
    Hey thanx for all the info. I had realized that they are a powerful gun, and not really intended for hunting. I was just considering all the options for this weapon. The attraction i had with this gun was the price. The weapons i inspected were in good working order, nice clean barrels good action in the bolt. I really wanted a rifle that could reach out and touch someone. I hadn't considered the availibilty of the ammo. I'm not much into these high powered rifles, can't use them here in ohio except for groundhogs and coyotes. So i never really got into them. I wanted a gun that would be a good killer in the long range, and im talking about human targets not just deer. I guess ill look into buying a 12 ga pump. Anyone got a good used one? The cover in Mo, is much like Ohio, so i think a 12 ga would be the appropriate gun. Plus i guess if i want long range my ol' smoke pole can reach out and be accurate to over a 100 yards. I've been a historical reenactor for a long time and have always been into old weapons. By the way what do you think is the most appropriate firearm for a back to the lander to own. A good all purpose gun.
    Thankx
    Jagger
     
  9. Mike in Ohio

    Mike in Ohio Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,143
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2002
    I have an 8mm and would agree with most of the other posters. a 30/30 or something similar would be a better choice for hunting. And for the kind of defense a military rifle would imply, you would be better off having a few friends to help you <G>.

    For a single all around weapon I would recommend a decent shotgun. You have the option of shot or slugs. For a handgun I would argue for a .38 or a 9mm. I prefer revolvers to automatics just because they are "simpler" (no worries about springs or clips, etc.).

    As usual, just my 2 cents.

    Mike
     
  10. SteveD(TX)

    SteveD(TX) Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,373
    Joined:
    May 14, 2002
    For the homestead I would recommend getting a decent 12 ga. pump with the shortest legal barrell available. Just the sound of jacking a shell into the chamber will make most intruders freeze - or run like a jackrabbit. You should be able to find a good used one for $200, maybe less.
     
  11. I like the swedish Mausers-6.5x55- very well built,very accurate , and light recoil.The 303 British is still a favorite[ in Canada]I would also consider getting a gun where ammunition is readily available.
    And yes I love my ThompsonCenter .50 caliber muzzle loader Hawkin.Pour my own bullets.Very cheap and fun to shoot.
     
  12. Jolly

    Jolly Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,926
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2004
    Location:
    Louisiana
    The 7.62x54R is very similar to the 30-06 in terminal ballistics, so you can consider the rounds effective to about the same distances, especially when you are talking iron sights.

    The M-N 91 variant you are talking about in the original post, is not hard to scope, as it is easy to screw in a new handle, and the scope mount adapter is easily obtainable.

    As for surplus FMJ ammunition, it's not good for hunting. As an expedient fix, you can grind the tips down to the lead, and the bullets will then expand better, but accuracy suffers, as does maximum range.

    The VZ rifle mentioned is a much better rifle, and is usually more accurate. The actions are suitable for customizing, so it is not unusual to see the Czech action on a 2-3 thousand dollar weapon.

    As for the rifle/shotgun argument...IMO, and I've hunted from Mexico to the Arctic Circle, gimme a rifle for big game hunting. Deer is big game. While many of your shots will be in the woods, and most deer are killed at distances less than 70 yards, if you limit yourself to a shotgun you take away a lot of opportunities. I've killed deer at distances of up to 400 yards in beanfields, and I've even killed a couple in the woods on old logging roads at over 120 yards. Try doing that with a shotgun.

    To address the overpentration argument...Overpenetration can be a problem with any weapon, even a shotgun. The best plan is to not have problems in the first place. A good dog, a few guinea fowl in the yard, hardening approach avenues to to your home...all of these can be deterrentsto those who wish you mischief, or at least give you enough time to gather your loved ones, use your cell phone, and take advantage of your pre-planned shooting areas.
     
  13. How about a Rossi in 44 magnum. It's single shot, can easily kill a deer, with the magnums should be good to 100+ yards. Can also shoot 44-specials and assorted shot shells. Cost $169.99 at Wal-Mart comes with sling attached. These handy little rifles also come in .223, 30.06, .357 calibers. I have the .410/22 combo and have had only positive results from them.



    Kenneth in NC
    tryed to sign in but was booted.
     
  14. Shoot, don't listen to these amateurs! What you need is a high-powered, high velocity, triple barreled, over under, side-by-side, fully adjustable, sawed-off, rapid-firing, bayonet-mountable, banana clipping, flash-suppressing, automatic super magnum, that is parkerized, sportserized and accurized, with a range-finding, night visioning and telescoping scope.....whew!
     
  15. Cabin Fever

    Cabin Fever Life NRA Member since 1976 Supporter

    Messages:
    14,943
    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    Location:
    Between Crosslake and Emily Minnesota
    Dern it, I somehow got logged out before I posted the recommendation above!
     
  16. Jolly

    Jolly Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,926
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2004
    Location:
    Louisiana
    Well....

    Triple barreled would be nice, but the only new drillings I know coming in the country right now are from Merkel, and they start at 3K, if memory serves me correctly.

    There were a few Bakail doubles to be found, stack barrels with a 30-06 on top, and a 12 gauge on bottom. But even they are going to be several hundred dollars.

    I don't think our original poster wanted to spend quite that much.

    A nice used Savage double would be a nice find, especially the 30-30/12 gauge O/U. With spitzer bullets, and judicious reloading, one can almost approach 300 Savage performance.
     
  17. Blu3duk

    Blu3duk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,844
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2002
    Location:
    central idaho republic
    The following 3 links are for the Gun List, some folks have read it, others read about it.... Krause also has a few other publications worth purusing once inawhile, the 3rd link is The Gun List classifieds, sometimes hard to get it to bring you up your particular lising but if it aint in the list that week, try again every other week as it is updated just like the print version twice a month.

    http://www.krause.com/static/firearms.htm

    http://www.collect.com/interest/periodical.asp?Pub=GL&cookie_test=1

    http://www.collect.com/buysell/classifieds/default.asp

    That said, as any prudent person would know, a 12 gauge shotgun can be and is accurate with slugs over 100 yards, depending upon what shell lenngth you are using and weight of slug and wheter it is saboted or not and if you have a rifled barrel..... several variables.....

    Mauser rifles military surplus are by far better rifles than written about by the gun writers of recent history....[we won WWII, why say the rifles the Germans used were any good?] the Model 98 largering Mauser action is the basis for many rifles, the ruger model 77, for one. The 98 action can be used without modification on many calibres based off the 30-06 springfeild round, which the 8mm is as well just necked up is all. The 3 locks on the bolts allow chamber pressures to exceed most book recomendations for modern rifles as well as most modern arms us a 2 lock lug on the bolt.

    On any surplus rifle check the headspace between bolt and case.... if greater than 12 thousandths be very careful in firing any thing through it.... a human hair is generally 3 thousandths an matchbook cover is 17 thousandths..... if not sure place rifle in a vise [or tie it to a post] use a string to pull the trigger [do not stand directly behind the rifle either] check for damage and case swelling [use a micrometer]. Reloading manuals are easy to find, and have starting points to go below and work over the top of depending on each firearm. Dies are inexpensive and so are hand presses.... get a chronograph to check speeds and calulate foot-pounds of energy..... use a rifle range to check your loads for drop at 100, 200, 500, 1000 yards or any distance you believe you are gonna shoot, remembering the benchrest is a perfect condition and almost never duplicated in the field..... write all data down if you reload including temperature and humidity, which effects trajectory as much as wind.

    Ive hunted with a 30-30 in Idaho for 30 seasons.... even killed more deer than ive had tags for thanks to a 2 deer in one shot one day.... farthest shot has only been 150 yards.... even in open feilds, but with the old octagon barrel [26 inch] my granddad shot a deer at 600 yards, which is a bit far for a 30 calibre spincast but it can be done.

    A 22-250 is an awesome round for a varmit and deer at distances of 400 yards or less and it can be loaded down to a 22 hornet round for grouse, and up slightly for medium ranges as a person wants to have fun experimenting with loads and different size projectiles.

    Contrary to popular opinion there is no "one Firearm fits all" homestead categories, there are starting points and there has never been a stopping point for some people, I personally have 3 30-30's currently 2 lever and one bolt action, a pump 12 gauge, a break single shot 12, a pump 22 rifle, an auto loading 22 rifle, an auto loading 22 pistol, a 357 revolver [for sale] an LAR Grizzly 45 Winchester Magnum auto loading pistol [one deer for saying i could do it] and 3 model 96 mauser in 6.5 x 55 Swede [I bought 11 and kept the 3 best head spaces], My dad-in-law has the 8mm Mauser and the 22-250 he built on the 98 frame we go play with from time to time, and he also built a couple of 7x57 on the 98 actions which he shot an elk at 416 yards in the rump and found the projectile in the front shoulder.... traveling completely through meat to its stopping point, so not a calibre that should be used in short range conditions.

    The 9x63 is camparable to the 375 H&H and is the smallest calibre allowed in Africa for the big game now, it is built on the 8mm case which as stateed above is the 30-06 case, just way more efficient in use of powder than the '06 or 308 round, but still more powerful than most folks will ever use.

    sorry i dont have much to input on firearm selection.... as you can see my knowledge is limited slightly.

    William [edited for spelling]
     
  18. j.r. guerra in s. tx.

    j.r. guerra in s. tx. Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    678
    Joined:
    May 10, 2002
    Be aware that Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) isn't your only option for the 7.62 x 54R cartridge - and the price isn't bad at all.

    http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/...gid=&mscssid=67FD6F9QEP6K9G98ML2BGCS9JWWC6QU4

    I think the case price of 500 rounds (at 20 rounds a year, a 25 year supply, which is basically a lifetime of hunting ) is less than $100. Double it if you want to be sure you have enough ammunition.

    What Bluduk said above is very true - those WWII surplus bolt actions will keep a family fed. It isn't what you hit them with, but WHERE you hit the animal - that will get your meat.

    And what Cabin said is very true - you don't need a modern gun with all the latest bells and whistles.

    Those 8 x 57 Mitchell Mausers are also very tempting, but possibly more of a problem feeding them hunting ammunition - you likely won't find bulk deal like the M-N.