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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://www.newswithviews.com/Morrison/joyce46.htm

Check out the above link for a pretty good "where the rubber hits the road" on how NAIS will affect you. It also has some good information on what premise registration means.

"The US Department of Agriculture gave the Future Farmers of America $600,000 to promote Premise ID. The FFA’s goal is to register 50,000 more premises by the partnership’s end on May 31, 2008, according to Bruce Knight, undersecretary for the USDA’s marketing and regulatory programs in the article ..."

"Registering a premises with the Federal government without receiving just compensation constitutes a voluntary surrender of any constitutional rights – right of property and freedom from unreasonable governmental searches – associated with registered premises. "
 

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Last year the Michigan Department of Agriculture sent premise numbeers to every farm known to have cattle.
 

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I'm jealous.
The other day I posted a fictitious report about NAIS. I had a blast. Even though it contained several outlandish claims, a few of the devout antiNAIS folks took the bait and ran with it. Several others saw it for what it was and got a laugh out of it.
It lasted for a matter of a few minutes before being censored.

Still, I got a big laugh out of it and I now understand what fun it must be for the antiNAIS authors that churn out this fiction.

I think I'll open my own web site, fill it with NAIS BS and then post the link here. I guess it doesn't matter if it is factual, just needs to have a link to keep the thread open.
 

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I don't get the premiss ID thing. Every farm that has ever perticipated in a farm program already has a farm number. One more feel good, look what we done rule that will cost the little guy. It is not a whole lot different then a gun control law.
 

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I'm jealous.
The other day I posted a fictitious report about NAIS. I had a blast. Even though it contained several outlandish claims, a few of the devout antiNAIS folks took the bait and ran with it. Several others saw it for what it was and got a laugh out of it.
It lasted for a matter of a few minutes before being censored.

Still, I got a big laugh out of it and I now understand what fun it must be for the antiNAIS authors that churn out this fiction.

I think I'll open my own web site, fill it with NAIS BS and then post the link here. I guess it doesn't matter if it is factual, just needs to have a link to keep the thread open.
You think its funny, but it actually shows your level of maturity. It also shows that you are very partisan in your thinking. You do not take into account from both sides of an arguement. Instead you think those against an issue, is nothing but a joke.

Again, anything you post should be looked at with objection, because it could be a lie. Much like the many posts you have posted for NAIS, are they factual? I question it now, as others should.

Edit: It was censored because it was both flame bait and trolling at its best.. If you aren't careful, you could wind up being banned. Obviously the debates have gotten to you more so than those against it. Usually someone acts like yourself, because they cant win the arguement. It turns into school grade acts.


Jeff
 

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She's pretty good at stoking that fire. Some of the stuff listed on there is pretty unbelievable, unless of course you really like to believe that the govt is out to getcha.

If I run a grade A dairy I have to register with the state without recompense..matter of fact I have to pay for the thing. Does that make me open to illegal search and seizures from the state, does it automatically disown me from the states constitution?
Does it automatically stop me from being protected by the states anti animal terrorism laws?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
So, why do you have to register because you have a dairy? Are you free?

She's pretty good at stoking that fire. Some of the stuff listed on there is pretty unbelievable, unless of course you really like to believe that the govt is out to getcha.

If I run a grade A dairy I have to register with the state without recompense..matter of fact I have to pay for the thing. Does that make me open to illegal search and seizures from the state, does it automatically disown me from the states constitution?
Does it automatically stop me from being protected by the states anti animal terrorism laws?
 

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Jeff, you are just mad because you fell for it. It showed me that if it is antiNAIS you'll believe it no matter how wild the claim.

You haven't believed a thing I've written anyway, so why not just make a joke about it? I've gotten tired of plowing the same myths over and over.

you can name call and you can make false statements, that's just free speech. But if I make fun of the outlandish beliefs held by the antiNAIS folks, it's trolling. Oh, well, let's move on.

Allen, I'll take you at your word, that you really don't understand the premise concept. The current farm number isn't tied to a location, more of a number so their file can be kept in order with the rest of the folders. Premise ID is tied to the farm location. As premise numbers are added to the data base, with longitude and latitude, the location of the farm is entered. The USDA can tell at a moment, what farms are within a 1/2 mile of a quarantined farm, or a mile or 10 miles. Without this, eventually local USDA staff could plot out a county map, using postal addresses, but that takes time and time is money. Also some farms are not at the postal addresses, like when people live in town and operate a farm miles away.

Sammyd, you and I know your questions are rhetorical, but when addressing people that believe the USDA is requiring children get chips implanted, USDA Inspectors can shoot animals on sight and premise IDs are being traded to China, you really need to include the correct answers to those questions. Some people are coming up with different answers from what you know to be false.

For over a year, there have been scores of false claims against NAIS. I have addressed those claims, often several times, but those followers of noNAIS, Liberty Ark and R-CALF keep drinking the Kool-Aid. No one has changed their position.

I posted a fictitious news report, containing many of the claims posted on Homesteadingtoday. Those that accept NAIS thought it was funny. Those that have bought into the antiNAIS propaganda believed it's outlandish claims and then were angered that they were duped. I never intended to make anyone look foolish. Sorry.

I'll stop what was seen as trolling and I welcome you to question everything I write. But in the interest of fairness, perhaps you should question everything in the antiNAIS web sites, too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
"I think I'll open my own web site, fill it with NAIS BS and then post the link here. I guess it doesn't matter if it is factual, just needs to have a link to keep the thread open."

I think you spread enough of that around here? Why go to the trouble of opening your own web site?


Jeff, you are just mad because you fell for it. It showed me that if it is antiNAIS you'll believe it no matter how wild the claim.

What is an example of one "wild claim"?

You haven't believed a thing I've written anyway, so why not just make a joke about it? I've gotten tired of plowing the same myths over and over.

So why do you keep doing it?

you can name call and you can make false statements, that's just free speech. But if I make fun of the outlandish beliefs held by the antiNAIS folks, it's trolling. Oh, well, let's move on.

Allen, I'll take you at your word, that you really don't understand the premise concept.

I don't either Allen. Missouri is proposing folks "register" their farms before they're allowed to take deer on their own property. What is this drive to register people's property?

The current farm number isn't tied to a location, more of a number so their file can be kept in order with the rest of the folders. Premise ID is tied to the farm location. As premise numbers are added to the data base, with longitude and latitude, the location of the farm is entered. The USDA can tell at a moment, what farms are within a 1/2 mile of a quarantined farm, or a mile or 10 miles. Without this, eventually local USDA staff could plot out a county map, using postal addresses, but that takes time and time is money. Also some farms are not at the postal addresses, like when people live in town and operate a farm miles away.

Sammyd, you and I know your questions are rhetorical, but when addressing people that believe the USDA is requiring children get chips implanted, USDA Inspectors can shoot animals on sight and premise IDs are being traded to China, you really need to include the correct answers to those questions. Some people are coming up with different answers from what you know to be false.

For over a year, there have been scores of false claims against NAIS. I have addressed those claims, often several times,

Your "address" of these claims has been government bunk.


but those followers of noNAIS, Liberty Ark and R-CALF keep drinking the Kool-Aid. No one has changed their position.

I posted a fictitious news report, containing many of the claims posted on Homesteadingtoday. Those that accept NAIS thought it was funny. Those that have bought into the antiNAIS propaganda believed it's outlandish claims and then were angered that they were duped. I never intended to make anyone look foolish. Sorry.

I'll stop what was seen as trolling and I welcome you to question everything I write. But in the interest of fairness, perhaps you should question everything in the antiNAIS web sites, too.
 

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I don't get the premiss ID thing. Every farm that has ever perticipated in a farm program already has a farm number. One more feel good, look what we done rule that will cost the little guy.
What about farms that have not participated? How about farms that are owned by someone that does not actually run the farm or even live near the farm?
What about the small guy with 5 cow/calf pairs he raises for a little extra pocket money? He might like to know that something is floating around the neighborhood so he can have his animals tested and maybe step up his bio safety program.

As for the article it seems to be a bunch of he said she said with very little facts to back anything up.
Fair attendees noticed kids being bribed with burgers and such to sign up for a premisis ID, yet
(It is unknown who was behind this unscrupulous act.)
LOL scaremongering at it's finest no worse than anything haypoint might have done with his imaginary stuff (which I'm kinda sorry I missed)

For years health papers are required for the exhibited animals and the papers have all the needed information to track the animal.
Who keeps the copies of the papers? Are they accessible 24/7? What if the person in charge of the copies is on vacation for a couple of weeks and the rest of the fair board doesn't know where they are kept?

Brands? Same thing. Are you able to access a database of brands nationwide? What about brands that may be similar or even the same but used in different states?

Below is a “Top 10” list in opposition to premises registration, compiled by R-CALF USA’s Animal ID Committee:
None of which are backed up with any sort of documentation.

But it would seem that haypoint discovered that documentation isn't needed anyway.
 

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Jeff, you are just mad because you fell for it. It showed me that if it is antiNAIS you'll believe it no matter how wild the claim.
Hardly. Something as childish as that post wont make me mad. It showed your level of maturity. Again it was trolling and flame bait. Its why the mods deleted the thread..


Jeff
 

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Hay point your right the farm numbers from the FSA office wouldn't work. It would take five separate premise id numbers to cover the two farm numbers on the ground I have rented and another for here at the place where I live. Every time I moved animals or took a horse to check cattle I would have to report in. Never mind about the times I don't see them for a week at a time and one has been out over the 24 hour report in time for movement. It is a good idea on paper but most people have no idea the impact it is going to have on farmers and ranchers going about there daily business.
 

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Allen,
I sounds like you have a good handle on the original Draft from a few years ago. I wish you'd spend some time in the hear and now.

If you have a spread that needs five different premise numbers, you must be among the "Big Guys" that the antiNAIS claim are exempt?

Besides clinging to obsolete NAIS information, you are holding dear the belief that it can't work in the Real World. Michigan has been operating a RFID system since last March 1st. You want a Real World example,you've got it. It is in place and it works. It has already been utilized to trace back diseases.

Farmers and ranchers have been going out of business for a long time. I expect they will continue to go out of business. But, NAIS hasn't driven anyone out of business. While the rest of Michigan's economy is on the ropes, beef and dairy farmers here are doing alright.

If I go to the USDA for information on USDA programs, you call it bunk. You go to web sites that post misleading and false statements and think you have all the answers.

While I find it interesting that one state requires premise ID for deer hunting, I didn't see the news article you refer to. Where is it? I fail to see the connection to NAIS. Do tell.

There is a lot of misinformation in this world. There are lots of situations where things aren't so clear cut. I post because I feel the truth is important. If you say all GMO is bad, I might try to explain the benefits. I want people to open their narrow focus. It is important for homesteaders to understand the rest of the world. We all are a part of the world. It is too easy to dream up conspiracy theories when you don't have any idea what goes on off the farm.

This thread is about 4H requiring premise ID. As long as you think that a premise ID is more than an address, you are buying into the fear mongering. Premise ID just isn't important. It doesn't impact your property.
 

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obviously, there are some personal issues on this thread that go back aways and I don't understand. But I can tell you from my own personal research, Haypoint, I don't support anything that the government tells me is for my own good. I don't believe it is 'fear mongering' to be wary of a government official having any type of power over my own property.

Maybe this skepticism comes from being a homeschooler and reading the many lawsuits that have been brought against homeschoolers b/c a government official stuck their nose into someone's personal business.

I'd like to see a list of reason why you support the NAIS-

Harplade
 

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Hay point your the one that said each premise ID is tied to location each being registered by longitude and latitude. Five distinct tracts of ground would give you five premise ID numbers. The big guys that are except are the factory farms and they still have to have premise numbers they can use batch numbers as opposed to individual tags. Thats for animals that are kept together in the system as one lot. I am so far from being big that it is laughable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Comments below


Allen,
I sounds like you have a good handle on the original Draft from a few years ago. I wish you'd spend some time in the hear and now.

The original draft plan was published in the Federal Register. That is what counts. The subsequent, feel good happy paper put out exempting private farms was NOT.

If you have a spread that needs five different premise numbers, you must be among the "Big Guys" that the antiNAIS claim are exempt?

Besides clinging to obsolete NAIS information,

The information we have is current. It is USDA's goal to track ALL animals.

you are holding dear the belief that it can't work in the Real World. Michigan has been operating a RFID system since last March 1st. You want a Real World example,you've got it. It is in place and it works. It has already been utilized to trace back diseases.

Farmers and ranchers have been going out of business for a long time. I expect they will continue to go out of business. But, NAIS hasn't driven anyone out of business. While the rest of Michigan's economy is on the ropes, beef and dairy farmers here are doing alright.

If I go to the USDA for information on USDA programs, you call it bunk.

Correct. If it isn't in the federal register, it isn't legitimate.

You go to web sites that post misleading and false statements and think you have all the answers.

While I find it interesting that one state requires premise ID for deer hunting, I didn't see the news article you refer to. Where is it? I fail to see the connection to NAIS. Do tell.

To my knowledge there is no direct connection. But, what is up with these programs demanding registration? This is, plain and simple, putting landowners in a contract with the government. The average citizen should have almost no contact with the federal government. We have different layers of government for freedom, not for efficiencies. I want freedom!

There is a lot of misinformation in this world.

There are a lot more corrupt governments in the world, to include ours.
There are lots of situations where things aren't so clear cut. I post because I feel the truth is important. If you say all GMO is bad, I might try to explain the benefits. I want people to open their narrow focus. It is important for homesteaders to understand the rest of the world. We all are a part of the world. It is too easy to dream up conspiracy theories when you don't have any idea what goes on off the farm.

This thread is about 4H requiring premise ID. As long as you think that a premise ID is more than an address,

You have no respect for freedom or for the individual.

you are buying into the fear mongering. Premise ID just isn't important. It doesn't impact your property.
 

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Whats the point of NAIS if they dont track EVERYTHING, that being farm animal. It becomes pointless if they pick and choose.


I received the entry form for it, and I love how you can market your animals easier (yawn), increases value with NAIS. Tell that to the people who were selling registered dairy cattle for 30-50-70 and over $100k this past year WITHOUT NAIS. I also would expect to see a jump in beef by 20-30 dollars a cwt, above any record high. If beef never goes up, nothing is effected price wise, it will be once again more BS.


Jeff
 

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The value of dairy cows depends on demand for milk. The demand for milk depends on consumer confidence.

The value of beef cows depends on the demand for beef, foreign and domestic. The demand for beef, foreign and domestic depends on consumer confidence.

Unchecked, widespread disease effects consumer confidence. NAIS helps track down diseased livestock by pinpointing the potentially exposed livestock.
 

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The value of dairy cows depends on demand for milk. The demand for milk depends on consumer confidence.

The value of beef cows depends on the demand for beef, foreign and domestic. The demand for beef, foreign and domestic depends on consumer confidence.

Unchecked, widespread disease effects consumer confidence. NAIS helps track down diseased livestock by pinpointing the potentially exposed livestock.
I could not agree more. We have ID numbers on just about everything we buy. We all loved to point at China plants last year for lead paint in toys, but yet we dont want to be able to find out where our food came from? We want to know if our veggies came from a country that allows the use of chemical X, but not our pork chops? I want to buy USA made stuff when I can, but we dont want anyone to know if our T-bones are from this country or not? We demand to know the conditions that our drugs are produced in, but we dont want to know the same about our chicken wings?

I sell beef direct to customers. One of the reasons they are willing to pay my sky high prices is that they know where it came from. If there is a problem it was either my farm/slaughter house/locker. They like the idea of being able to know exactly where their food was on what day.

I know the one arguement is that the goverment does not need to know if you have critters or not. Well, I hate to tell you this, but go to your local ag extention office. Ask to see the most up to date overhead shots of your land. You can tell what kids were outside that day. So unless you keep them under cover (chickens?) they already know if you have horses, cows, corn, hay, sheep, etc.
 

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That is true. and so what if they do? You buy feed? they know, you buy farm supples? they know, you buy seed? they know So what. They the government has known for many years just who you are what you are and where you are. You may THINK you are hidden, but by golly do some hard checking into records, and believe me THEY know.
So what the Premises ID? no big deal the number has not one thing to do with YOU and everything is about whee the animals are being kept in case of a disease outbreak, which is a good thing.
 
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