My dog is in heat!

Discussion in 'Homesteading Questions' started by Lrose, Feb 10, 2005.

  1. Lrose

    Lrose Well-Known Member

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    I have what is probably a dumb question but will ask it anyway. My half Border Collie half Scotch collie is in heat. One friend has a Border Collie and would like to breed to my female. My other friend has a Sheltie and would like to breed to my dog. What would happen if I bred her to both males during this heat period? Would some pups be Three quarter border collie and one quarter scotch collie ? Would some pups be half sheltie and one quarter scotch collie and one quarter Border Collie. Would it hurt her to breed to both dogs. I figure dogs running loose must breed to more than one male during a heat period. Anyone know the answer? <Linda
     
  2. jack_c-ville

    jack_c-ville Well-Known Member

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    Some of the dogs in the litter will have one father and some will have the other. Depending on the timing, of course. It could be that all of the ova are already fertilized by the time that the second male dog arrives on the scene.

    It would not hurt your dog. However, you should be very, very certain that all of these puppies will have homes before you deliberately breed them. No sense in bringing dogs into the world if they are just going to wind up at 'puppy Auchwitz' (local shelter that will put them down).

    I wish that there were some kind of birth control pill that could be given to dogs which would result in their only having 2 puppies to a litter. It would make decisions like this so much easier.

    -Jack
     

  3. Carol K

    Carol K Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but i agree with Wind in her Hair. Please don't breed your dog just because your friends want to use their dog at stud! It's not the right reason to do it. There are sooooo many unwanted dogs, please don't add to them by breeding irresponsibly.

    Carol K
     
  4. Lrose

    Lrose Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I upset you with my question. I should clarify a few things. First whenever I wanted a dog for a pet or a cat for a pet I head to the local shelter and adopt one and have it spayed. The dog I have now is not only a pet and part of the family but is a working farm dog. She gaurds the farm, herds the animals, kills rats and generally looks after her territory. Dogs with these qualities in my little part of the world are hard to find and if you do are very expensive. Both persons wanting to breed their males are responsible people with working dogs. Both have dogs that are getting older which is why they would want another one from a good working dog. The reason I wondered about breeding her to both males in one heat period was because I don't want two litters of puppies such as the case if I bred her to the Sheltie now and later in another heat period to the Border Collie. With one litter depending on how many she has I have placements for five. Two from the male dogs owners, one for ourselves plus two other people. My dog was one of nine. If she has nine I need good farm homes for four. Shelties, Border Collies and Scottish Collies all make good farm dogs . If my dog was a dumb but lovable mutt I would not do this. But we had many dogs; all lovable; over the years but not smart when it came to working. I was fortunate to get this dog and there won't be anymore like her as her mother died last year. We are interested in preserving a working type farm collie that is also a good family dog. Because I am concerned about an overabundance of puppies I really want to breed her only once. If we keep two dogs there will be one to carry on if anything should happen to one. The two people are not only responsible dog owners but good friends. As for shelter puppies and cats ;I love them all and help support our local shelter. Thanks to the internet and adoptions out of province our shelter puts down few dogs. Well one thing for sure I only have a few days to make up my mind what to do. Thanks to all for their input. Linda
     
  5. 4rnubians

    4rnubians Well-Known Member

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    Bravo Wind In Her Hair.

    Sorry but I don't know why a person would want to breed a mix breed dog just because it is a good farm dog.
    Just because she is smart & a good farm dog, does not mean her off springs will...

    If the father of these pup have any health problems or your dog ( hips, eyes, heart ) the poor pups will be the ones to suffer.
     
  6. Vera

    Vera Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I'll try to keep this as polite as possible. If you don't even know the basic biology of dog breeding, you DO NOT NEED TO BREED A DOG. There are millions of fine dogs and puppies out there who are killed every year because clueless people with unaltered animals breed them for all sorts of silly reasons. There are also millions of dogs and puppies out there who have genetic defects because their parents were bred by clueless people for all sorts of silly reasons. No matter what your individual reasoning is, there's no way around the fact that you'd be fertilizing the plague of unwanted animals if you bred your dog under the circumstances described in your post. Do the world a favor and get her spayed instead, hm? Your friends can get replacement dogs at the shelter or from breed rescue groups or from a concientious breeder.
     
  7. JAM

    JAM Well-Known Member

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    Do yourself and the dog a favor and have her spayed. She will have many less health problems and you will not have the problem of getting ride of mixed breed pups. Myself and others on this board are involved with rescue groups and to often see what happens to these pups. There are so many good dogs out there just waiting for someone to give them a loving home.
     
  8. Maura

    Maura Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The people who are happy with their present dogs should really go back to where they got them in the first place.

    As to what sort of mix you would get in any puppy is anybody's guess. If the mother is a border collie and the father is a sheltie, then each puppy is 50% border collie and 50% sheltie. In the next generation, let's say your dog is bred to a sheltie, the puppies will not be 25% border collie and 75% sheltie. All you can guarentee is that the puppies will be at least 50% sheltie. Any puppy may be barky like a sheltie, or quiet like a border collie.

    You don't really know what qualities the puppies will have because there is not a "line" behind them. Even within the same breed, different "lines" will have different temperments and capablilities. This is certainly true of border collies. My dog is a border collie from superb working lines, but he is quite different from his siblings. One is in no way a herding dog and lives as a pet. The other three went to herding homes. My dog is calm compared to the three herding dogs. These other three may make fine trial dogs, but I wanted a good farm dog (which he is).

    I think you are getting in over your head. And, unless you have money from the people who SAY they want one of the puppies, you may end up with nine homeless puppies... sad but true.
     
  9. Judy in IN

    Judy in IN Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I was taking a load out to the new place today. About half-way there I saw stopped traffic. There in the road was a nice looking Aussie mix. He was obviously looking for his people. A lady had stopped, and was just as obviously waiting for traffic to get by so she could help this dog. His attitude seemed to be that this was where his people let him out, so here was where he was staying. HOW SAD... :waa:

    He was gone when I made the trip back...I was relieved not to see his body on the side of the road. I can't believe how casually people get rid of their loyal companions. A dog is a lifetime committment.....well, to ME, anyway.
     
  10. DraftFlavored

    DraftFlavored Well-Known Member

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    While I'm not experienced with dogs as many of you certainly are, I believe the message should be RESPONSIBILITY. So often times, people throw logic out the window, decide upon matters by which they are NOT well versed and in the final analysis, "hope for the best" and plow forward anyway.

    I agree with many here..... for heaven's sake, there are unlimited numbers of great animals out there just begging for a good home. I had always longed for a doxie. I did my research and dealt with a rescue society and ended up with not one, but two fantastic dogs. They're healthy, mentally sound etc. and I feel good knowing I have provided a good home to existing dogs who needed homes.

    Common sense is KEY and animals will always suffer as people continue to think of themselves.
     
  11. Cindy in KY

    Cindy in KY Well-Known Member

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    Linda, some of the pups would have 1 father, and the others the other father. Either one father or the other. You should be able to tell by the apperance of the pups, color, etc. But no pup will have both fathers.

    Actually, this is being done in the Border Collie world by some now, and they DNA the pups to determine the sire, and then all the pups are registered according to the DNA results. One litter instead of 2, easier on the mum, and sooner to see which lines click the best with the mums lines.

    Also I've been reading for years on the internet about Farm Collies, and those folks really care about the dogs, traits, working abililty, temperment, etc. They are trying to bring back and establish the true all around farm collie from yesteryear. Those dogs that hold all the traits desired are great dogs to have around the farm, doing it all so to speak. My big male BC does everything on the list except tree a squirrel. :) But I've never taught him to do that, he might with work, but we have no squirrels up here. I am curious as to the Scotch Collie. Is it that the dog was mostly black with very little white?
     
  12. Shazza

    Shazza Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Linda...when I lived in Malaysia, Penang we had a little (say beagle size) brown female dog of unknown pedigree. The streets are crawling with dogs over there. When Cuddles gave birth there were at least 2 fathers to those puppies, both were permanent strays at the flats we lived in. So yes it is possible, but whether you'd do it on purpose is another question. But the puppies all got lovely homes with Raafies over there and would've been passed to newcomers every couple of years. Good luck in your choices to come. :)
     
  13. spring77

    spring77 Well-Known Member

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    I would say if you have homes for most of the pups and feel confident that you can place the others in working farm homes, and if your vet thinks your dog is up to having a litter, go for it. I realize a lot of people on this thread think you are an idiot, and careless breeding is cruel and idiotic. But contrary to what some of the above posters think, what you are thinking about doesn't sound idiotic to me.
    Its become pretty clear that the idea that "The only way to KNOW what you are going to get from breeding dogs is to stick with purebred responsible kennel club sanctioned pedigreed blah, blah, blah..." is bankrupt. Purebred dog breeds are on the fast track to extinction because of inbreeding and its getting worse and worse instead of better. It doesn't matter how much genetic testing you do, how much "severe culling and selection of breeding animals" the fact remains that the gene pools of purebred dogs are so shallow you can walk across them and not get your feet wet. This is because when you start out with a small group of officially sanctioned dogs that become the founding members of a "breed" and never allow any new blood to come in you have what is called a "Genetic Bottleneck" then you add in show dog breeding for conformation which changes as fads come and go, you get certain dogs which have an overwhelming majority of progeny, so your gene pool gets smaller cause a few dogs are having all the offspring. And pretty soon it doesn't matter if you are linebreeding or THINK you are outcrossing to another "bloodline" you are still playing go fish with only five cards in the deck.

    The beauty of breeding working dogs is instinctive behavior is highly heritable, so if your dog is a good worker, and your neighbors dogs are good workers, there is a good chance with some training so will the offspring. And the fact that you are crossing some crossbreds just means you've got some nice hybrid vigor. The kind of breeding you are doing has been done with farmdogs forever, and lots of useful animals have resulted. If there is a demand for working pups and you have a mating that will supply it. Go for it. The people on this thread who are objecting are doing so from experiences with the abandoned dog problem. It is a terrible problem and I don't see any way to fix it, but spaying your dog and getting a pitbull mix from the shelter, even if he makes a great pet and companion, doesn't provide you with a good farmdog. It is not irresponsible to breed a dog if you have a goal for the litter and homes for pups, regardless of their pedigree.

    I know most people on this thread would disagree. To talk to some folks who are doing what you are talking about go to the American Working Farmcollie Association. Just google farmcollie or AWFA and you should find them. They will understand what you are trying to do.

    Tim
     
  14. 4rnubians

    4rnubians Well-Known Member

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    A breeder ( if you want to call him that) of Goldens had a litter of pups. The Dam died after 2 days after giving birth.
    The breeder didn't want to put up with the crying & feeding a litter of 8
    Dumped them in the Humane Society.. The Breed rescue took the litter.... I adopted one at 8 weeks old.

    When she came to her forever home with us.. she looked like the perfect puppy in GReat health.
    She is not even 1 year old, this poor girl has a overbite,one toe missing, eye problems with cataracts & other eye problems
    She has drops put in her eyes everyday, goes to a eye specialist every 4 months ( he is out of state)
    Might need a very expense operation on her eyes ( About $4,000.00) each eye.

    Another pup from this litter was the runt born with a crooked leg.They didn't think she was going to
    make it. She is now in a wonderful home her leg is fine.

    When our little girl came to her forever home with us.. she looked like the perfect puppy

    What would have happened to our girl if she was sold from the so call Breeder?
    Would the puppy buyer do all they can for her?
    Would they have spayed her?
    Or would she had been dumped,or euthenized? Would the so call breeder take her back?

    She has a heart of Gold.. a real love, loves the farm animals.. Guess I should breed her?
    Of course NOT

    She is spayed.....

    What are ruining the purebred dogs are Puppy Mills & Backyard Breeders who don't give a darn about the
    dogs.. Just looking to make money.. They are the ones who are hurting all the Responsible Breeders.....
     
  15. spring77

    spring77 Well-Known Member

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    Puppy mills are bad, irresponsible breeding is bad, backyard breeders are neither necessarily bad or good. The first poster is not being irresponsible, they asked a question and gotted called an idiot for contemplating breeding their dog. Breeding dogs is not a sin, crossbreeding dogs is not a sin either. God did not invent dog breeds people did. Purebred pedigrees are not in the bible, they are something that was invented less than 200 years ago. I don't believe that RESPONSIBLE breeders really learn much when they study genetics and breeding. When I visit dog breeding forums for different breeds everyone likes to talk about breeding for color and conformation and you see very learned posts about the heritability of certain traits. But they all seem to gloss over really important stuff like INBREEDING COEFFICIENTS or GENETIC BOTTLENECKS, GENETIC DRIFT, FOUNDER EFFECT. There is a myth in the purebred dog world that you can breed away from genetic defects by rigorous culling. This is only true if you have sufficient genetic diversity in your gene pool. And I defy you to pick a breed that can be said about. The main flaw in the entire concept of purebred animals is the idea of a closed registry. When the founders of the pure bred dog movement started the registries and decided "These dogs are Purebred Colorado Whalehounds", it didn't do anything to them. Their whalehounds were bred "like to like" and produced whalehounds that were even whalehoundier than any they'd had before, maybe there was even a really outstanding "Champion Lionsheart of Greeley Whalesbane" who was such an amazing whale killing machine that everyone with a b*tch bred to him. So even though there were quite a few different male whalehounds back in those days, nowadays pretty much every modern whalehound is one of his descendents, probably many multiples of times, and whalehounds these days are a pretty sad bunch of genetic disasters, lots of breeders talk about crossing different "lines" to stop all the congenital frightfulness that breeding whalehounds has become but there is no such thing. You can talk about bloodlines till your blue in the face but the fact remains that good old Lionheart is everybody's great great grandpa. What is the solution? Outcrossing, GASP! Its so irresposible! You don't know what your going to get! Umm, how about healthier dogs? I had to laugh about the above post stating that crossbred litters are often much larger than purebred ones. DO YOU KNOW WHY? Its because those missing puppies in the purebred litters DIED shortly after conception due to LETHAL RECESSIVE allele (gene) combinations. How can that be considered a good thing?
     
  16. farmy

    farmy Well-Known Member

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    Do any of the people who flamed Linda have farm dogs that actually do meaningful work on their working farms? (I don't mean hobby farms where you get the sheep in order to give the border collie something to do.) If so, where did you get your pups, and can I have that breeder's number? In my part of the world, it's nearly impossible to find a good candidate for all around farm work e.g. herding, ratting, and guarding, in part because breeders don't tend to select for a mixture of those qualities anymore. Sounds like Linda has a great working farm dog and farms that want her dog's pups, and rather than flame her I think we should thank her for preserving the line.

    OK, now, go ahead and flame me.

    -Farmy
     
  17. mammabooh

    mammabooh Metal melter Supporter

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    My thoughts exactly! I read all these replies earlier and just shook my head in amazement. I can guarantee you that I will NEVER EVER buy or adopt a purebred dog. Every single one of them that I have been around has health problems. Give me a healthy hard-working mutt any day.
     
  18. farmy

    farmy Well-Known Member

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    Just to clarify, you did also neuter/spay the working dogs that you kept, right?
     
  19. RedneckPete

    RedneckPete Well-Known Member

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    Quote: Wind in Her Hair - Today at 01:00 PM

    Yes they are -if they are considering breeding and do not even know the basics of animal reproduction! What ELSE don't they know or haven't considered...thats my issue and thats why I said they would be an "idiot" to breed that dog - based on the information that they DID NOT HAVE.



    Put two dogs together and they have puppies, probably 99 times out of a hundred. Dogs have been having puppies for thousands of years with very little input from humans. Trust me, you don't have to hold your dog's paw while she gives birth. She knows what she is doing. If the dog dies while giving birth, such is life. Anyone who spends a thousand bucks giving their dog a C-S needs to spend a little time at a sick kids hospital seeing how their money could be spent.

    Pete
     
  20. southerngurl

    southerngurl le person Supporter

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    How does one learn the basics of animal reproduction? By considering breeding an animal.

    Are breeders born knowing all this stuff? Do they learn it before they consider breeding an animal?