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Jeffrey David Sachs is an American economist, academic, public policy analyst, and former director of The Earth Institute at Columbia University, where he holds the title of University Professor. He is known for his work on sustainable development, economic development, and the fight to end poverty.

 

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Baker: If that happens, our troops will return home. We will leave any country that does not desire our presence. The American people have always had a strong position favoring this. However, if the current West German leadership is at the head of a unified Germany then they have said to us they will be against our withdrawal. And the last point. NATO is the mechanism for securing the U.S. presence in Europe. If NATO is liquidated, there will be no such mechanism in Europe. We understand that not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction.

 

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The Russian invasion in 2022 would likely have been averted had Biden agreed with Putin’s demand at the end of 2021 to end NATO’s eastward enlargement. The war would likely have been ended in March 2022, when the governments of Ukraine and Russia exchanged a draft peace agreement based on Ukrainian neutrality. Behind the scenes, the US and UK pushed Zelensky to reject any agreement with Putin and to fight on. At that point, Ukraine walked away from the negotiations.

Under Clinton’s watch, NATO expanded to Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic in 1999. Five years later, under President George W. Bush, Jr. NATO expanded to seven more countries: the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania), the Black Sea (Bulgaria and Romania), the Balkans (Slovenia), and Slovakia. Under President Barack Obama, NATO expanded to Albania and Croatia in 2009, and under President Donald Trump, to Montenegro in 2019.
Russia’s opposition to NATO enlargement intensified sharply in 1999 when NATO countries disregarded the UN and attacked Russia’s ally Serbia, and stiffened further in the 2000’s with the US wars of choice in Iraq, Syria, and Libya. At the Munich Security conference in 2007, President Putin declared that NATO enlargement represents a “serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust.”

Putin continued: “And we have the right to ask: against whom is this expansion intended? And what happened to the assurances [of no NATO enlargement] our western partners made after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact?” Where are those declarations today? No one even remembers them. But I will allow myself to remind this audience what was said. I would like to quote the speech of NATO General Secretary Mr. Woerner in Brussels on 17 May 1990. He said at the time that: “the fact that we are ready not to place a NATO army outside of German territory gives the Soviet Union a firm security guarantee. Where are these guarantees?”
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Washington D.C., December 12, 2017 – U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University

 

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About 2/3 of Ukraine's power grid has been destroyed and much of the country is already in freezing temperatures.
I thought you said it was over after Putin claimed those temporarily occupied nazified territories were officially claimed annexed. Or am I remembering it incorrectly?

And I am in agreement that this billions just sent to Ukraine are being recycled back to criminal enterprises that masquerade as government. But, Putin (if he is really in charge of anything) is a war criminal. Russia, Iran and the CCP are wretched evils that prey upon humanity even worse than the WEF and the Australian, UK, EU, and New Zealand regimes.
 

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All I posted was 2/3 of Ukraine's electrical grid has been destroyed. About a month ago, Russia started taking out the grid. An article in ZeroHedge shows the night sky almost void of any lights in Ukraine. This is expected to cause major migration out of Ukraine into neighboring countries who already have food and energy problems.
 

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All I posted was 2/3 of Ukraine's electrical grid has been destroyed. About a month ago, Russia started taking out the grid. An article in ZeroHedge shows the night sky almost void of any lights in Ukraine. This is expected to cause major migration out of Ukraine into neighboring countries who already have food and energy problems.
That may be all you posted today. It is assuredly not all you posted regarding this unprovoked invasion that is killing a whole heck of a lot of innocent civilians.

There are shenanigans in Ukraine. But, Russian orcs should not be celebrated. Their leaders are evil. (Not that ours , or purported ones aren't either)
 

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The Russian invasion in 2022 would likely have been averted had Biden agreed with Putin’s demand at the end of 2021 to end NATO’s eastward enlargement. The war would likely have been ended in March 2022, when the governments of Ukraine and Russia exchanged a draft peace agreement based on Ukrainian neutrality. Behind the scenes, the US and UK pushed Zelensky to reject any agreement with Putin and to fight on. At that point, Ukraine walked away from the negotiations.
You chose to provide the long quote without any commentary of your own, so we’re left to ask- what is your take on it?

How much of a “buffer” between Russia and NATO did Russia gain when they stole Crimea in 2014?

I know they gained a lot of Black Sea oil when they stole it. In fact, the lines Putin chose just happened to give Russia ALL of Ukraine’s claim to Black Sea oil- still not so sure about the “buffer”, though. I’m not so great at ciphering maps but, when I look at it, I’d almost think that land-grab put Russia’s southwest border closer to NATO states. It’s almost as is the writer you quoted, and chose not to comment on, was full of **** unfamiliar with the concept of intellectual honesty.

Under Clinton’s watch, NATO expanded to Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic in 1999. Five years later, under President George W. Bush, Jr. NATO expanded to seven more countries: the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania), the Black Sea (Bulgaria and Romania), the Balkans (Slovenia), and Slovakia. Under President Barack Obama, NATO expanded to Albania and Croatia in 2009, and under President Donald Trump, to Montenegro in 2019.
Russia’s opposition to NATO enlargement intensified sharply in 1999 when NATO countries disregarded the UN and attacked Russia’s ally Serbia, and stiffened further in the 2000’s with the US wars of choice in Iraq, Syria, and Libya. At the Munich Security conference in 2007, President Putin declared that NATO enlargement represents a “serious provocation that reduces the level of mutual trust.”

Putin continued: “And we have the right to ask: against whom is this expansion intended? And what happened to the assurances [of no NATO enlargement] our western partners made after the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact?” Where are those declarations today? No one even remembers them. But I will allow myself to remind this audience what was said. I would like to quote the speech of NATO General Secretary Mr. Woerner in Brussels on 17 May 1990. He said at the time that: “the fact that we are ready not to place a NATO army outside of German territory gives the Soviet Union a firm security guarantee. Where are these guarantees?”
And, why, exactly, should we give half a rat’s ass what Putin thinks about Russia’s former slave states voluntarily choosing to join a defensive alliance that ensures protection against future re-enslavement by Russia?

In all those words explaining how the west provoked Russia by allowing its former slave states to join NATO, the author somehow managed to get by without so much as a mention of Georgia or Chechnya. How do you think that figures? If I didn’t know better, I’d take it as proof that the author was unfamiliar with the concept of intellectual honesty full of ****.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
You chose to provide the long quote without any commentary of your own, so we’re left to ask- what is your take on it?

How much of a “buffer” between Russia and NATO did Russia gain when they stole Crimea in 2014?

I know they gained a lot of Black Sea oil when they stole it. In fact, the lines Putin chose just happened to give Russia ALL of Ukraine’s claim to Black Sea oil- still not so sure about the “buffer”, though. I’m not so great at ciphering maps but, when I look at it, I’d almost think that land-grab put Russia’s southwest border closer to NATO states. It’s almost as is the writer you quoted, and chose not to comment on, was full of **** unfamiliar with the concept of intellectual honesty.


And, why, exactly, should we give half a rat’s ass what Putin thinks about Russia’s former slave states voluntarily choosing to join a defensive alliance that ensures protection against future re-enslavement by Russia?

In all those words explaining how the west provoked Russia by allowing its former slave states to join NATO, the author somehow managed to get by without so much as a mention of Georgia or Chechnya. How do you think that figures? If I didn’t know better, I’d take it as proof that the author was unfamiliar with the concept of intellectual honesty full of ****.
Do you think Ukraine will retake the territory taken by Russia?
 

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Do you think Ukraine will retake the territory taken by Russia?
So, now you’re signed up to the @Nevada School of Debate where making random non-sequitur pivots, ignoring questions asked of you and then thinking you are entitled to questions of your own is honest discourse?

To reacquaint you with intellectual honesty, I’ll answer your question, directly, and then reask mine.

Answer to your non-sequitur pivot and question:
I don’t know how much of what stolen lands remain that Ukraine will liberate but, if the last 90 days and the current state of the Russian military are any indication, and the west continues their support, I think there’s a good chance they’ll kick the invading orcs out of most if not all of it, and possibly even Crimea.

Now, my questions again:
What is your take on the series of long quotes you opened with without providing any commentary of your own?

How did the forceful theft of Crimea advance Russia’s stated (and your long-quote’s carried) goal of gaining “buffer” between its homeland and NATO territory?

If the west’s accepting the voluntary joining of NATO by former Soviet slave-states was a provocation of Putin’s Russia, how do you think Putin’s Russia forcefully re-enslaving Georgia and Chechnya figure into those former slave-states’ decisions to ask to join NATO?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I don’t know how much of what stolen lands remain that Ukraine will liberate but, if the last 90 days and the current state of the Russian military are any indication, and the west continues their support, I think there’s a good chance they’ll kick the invading orcs out of most if not all of it, and possibly even Crimea.
My earlier question is very pertinent to my position on the Ukraine war. It is in no way random, a non-sequitur, or a pivot
random non-sequitur pivots

My next question
How much should the west support escalation of the Ukraine war to retake territory now held by Russia?
 

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My earlier question is very pertinent to my position on the Ukraine war. It is in no way random, a non-sequitur, or a pivot



My next question
How much should the west support escalation of the Ukraine war to retake territory now held by Russia?
As soon as the orcs began pillaging, looting, executing, kidnapping civilians in a non-hostile neighboring sovereign nation using the word "escalate" in how we or Ukraine should respond seems rather trivial to me.
 

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My earlier question is very pertinent to my position on the Ukraine war. It is in no way random, a non-sequitur, or a pivot



My next question
How much should the west support escalation of the Ukraine war to retake territory now held by Russia?
So, you’re really not going to answer my questions?
You’ve become that, now, have you?

With your developing habit of posting leading text but carefully distancing yourself from owning any opinion about it, I’d almost think you married a painter. But, now making the discussion exclusively about what you want to say and ignoring every other detail added to the discourse is just self-serving and dishonest. Perhaps a blog would be a cozier safe space for you.

Since one of us still possesses intellectual honesty, I’ll answer your question, and then I’ll re-re-ask mine:

Russia’s attack of Ukraine is an attack against the west. Allowing them to rape and pillage unchecked puts allies to which we have commitments in Poland, Hungary and the Baltics in danger. Since Russia started a war with us, we should continue to batter the Russian army until it backs down or is no longer.

So, again, my questions, if you’ve got the integrity to answer them:
What is your take on the series of long quotes you opened with without providing any commentary of your own?

How did the forceful theft of Crimea advance Russia’s stated (and your long-quote’s carried) goal of gaining “buffer” between its homeland and NATO territory?

If the west’s accepting the voluntary joining of NATO by former Soviet slave-states was a provocation of Putin’s Russia, how do you think Putin’s Russia forcefully re-enslaving Georgia and Chechnya figure into those former slave-states’ decisions to ask to join NATO?
 
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