menengial worms?

Discussion in 'Goats' started by mammawof3, Oct 10, 2005.

  1. mammawof3

    mammawof3 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    360
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Location:
    Indiana
    Could someone explain the danger of having whitetail deer in our pastures, in the feilds we cut for hay,the possible connection between menengial worms? and my on again, off again limping goats? (foot swells and is warm, will find a small wound between toes-seems to get better with hoof rot treatment and biomycin shots) Am i dealing with several issues here? What are the symponts of these worms and do you inject the ivermec instead of orally like we usually do? Also, is ivermec gold good for tapeworms or is valbazen better? :eek:
     
  2. suzyhomemaker09

    suzyhomemaker09 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,020
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Location:
    SW Missouri
    Ok as I understand it..also in simplistic terms...
    whitetail deer are a host to the menengial worms..it's one of those life cycle things...the worms are ingested by your livestock as they graze and the larvae as they mature attach themselves to the spinal column and eventually into the brain where they grow and cause irreprable damage and death to the host animal.If I'm not mistaken Ivomec is the preferred wormer for suspected problems..if caught in time it can be treated. Wormings for this are usually done in the fall.
    Hope this helps some...I'm sure one of those with more knowledge will be along soon to illuminate this issue more.
     

  3. moonspinner

    moonspinner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,640
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    western NY
    A high concentration of deer could be a problem for men. worms. I might worry a bit over your limping goats as this is how the disease begins. I do not know how suseptible goats are to this parasite as opposed to llamas, which contract this more easily. The disease is debilitating and is not pretty toward the end.
     
  4. moonspinner

    moonspinner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,640
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    western NY
    There is an article on this at Goat World.
     
  5. sue-b

    sue-b Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Location:
    WV
    Last Thursday evening, October 4th when I came home from work I noticed that my goat was dragging his left hind leg. I did not think anything of it because he is always getting himself cought in a fence or something. Then Wednesday A.M. I looked at him and he was sort of down in a squat postion in his hind quarters. So off to the Vet we go. I was told he had deer worms. I was told my goat got it because the grass is short and there is a lot of deer this year.

    My goat got an injection of each ivermec and Dexamethasone solution 2mg/mL. I was ask to bring him in again on Friday for another injection. This time the goat got a double dose of Dexamethasome solution 1/2 of the dose in each side of the neck. I don't know how much but it appeared to be a large amount. He did not get the ivermac this time. I was ask to bring him back again on Saturday for another dosage. I had to go out of town for the weekend so the Vet drew up the Dexamethasone solution and the ivermac for me. My fathers farm hand gave the injections.

    Yesterday, Monday when I got home the goat was no better, sort of somewhat worse. No doubt as it rained all weekend and he could got get around to eat and got wet and very cold Saturday per my Mom. I stood him up last night when I got home and it was hard holding up his hind quarters as he ate hay. I got tired and had to let him lay down. At least I put him in out of the rain.

    This 6am he was out of the dry and somewhat wet again as it rained last night. He still can not get up. I held up his hindquarters till I could not do it. I put him into the dry with some hay. He was chowing down on hay when I left.

    This is hard on me because he is a pet. Born this spring and I have been bottle feeding him still once a day in the eveing. This is good as I gave him a warm bottle of milk this am. Also he is wet too because he lays in his urine, until someone or me puts hay under him.

    October 16. The goat is still down in the hind quarters. I went to the feed store and bought Maxi-B1000; this in all they had in a B-Vitamin. To date the goats first injection was 1cc then yesterday he got 2cc; this is what was recommented on the bottle. I do not know how many injections he can get or how for how long. Just now he pulled himself out of the holding area into the grassy area and is eating. I have been getting him up and moving his back legs to keep the muscles from contracting. I don't know what else to do.
     
  6. moonspinner

    moonspinner Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,640
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Location:
    western NY
    I feel so badly for you. We do get so attached to our critters.
     
  7. Tarot Farm

    Tarot Farm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    847
    Joined:
    May 22, 2005
    I understand about wanting your dear littel goat to be well and trying to care for him. I treat all of my animals like my kids! I even call them 'my fur children'. I hope that the goat does better soon. You might want to check with another vet...that is what I would do if at all possible. Not many vets that I know of in this area are good 'goat vets'...they read the books and other than that, do not have any exerience with them.

    I read that someone on the Equine Forum had a Mini Horse that had contracted Men. worms. I did not know that it could cross species, so please watch your other livestock too.

    We have way too many deer where I live and this year they are finding dead deer all over the county and surrounding counties. The state issued an explaination for this and said that they died 'from a disease that was beign spread by flies and gnats'....never said what the disease was, but the deer go down hill rapidly and get very thin before they die. They also stated that the disease (deer season is here now) will not transfer to humans and that it was safe to eat the deer meat! (No way am I eating a sick deer). They went on to expalin that the flies would soon die from the cold weather and that the deer population would not be affected and the disease would soon disappear. Still, I cannot find anyone in the state who can tell just what this disease is that is killing the deer.
     
  8. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,817
    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Location:
    North of Houston TX
    With the age of your kid I would have him blood tested for CAE. I would also be treating with high dosages of B1/Thiamin. Menengial worm is out there, but it is not a diagnosis that most will ever see on any stock, deer or not. We live in white tail deer territory, national forest, and we have had only one case in 19 years. IF caught quickly, Ivermectin, steroids, Banamine to stop the self mutilation of the migrating larve through the skin (and if you don't have a buck with holes in his hide, you likely have been missdiagnosed.

    Rear end weakness or paralysis can be from polio (thiamin defficiency), being hurt, menengitis from an injury or disbudding, but with the bucks age it sure sounds like the E part of CAE. Good luck with your buck, our doe was fine after her ordeal, with lots of good nursing. vicki
     
  9. lgslgs

    lgslgs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,429
    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Location:
    Southeast Ohio
     
  10. sue-b

    sue-b Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Location:
    WV
    How many cc's does a goat get. The bottle said 1 - 2 cc for a goat. How much is a high dose? How often does the goat get this?
    Maxi-B1000
    B1 12.5mg/mL
    Niacinamide 12.5mg/mL
    B6 5mg/mL
    d-Penthenol 5mg/mL
    B2 2mg/mL
    B12 1000mcg
     
  11. MoBarger

    MoBarger Goat's Milk soap for sale

    Messages:
    374
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Location:
    upstate NY
    I totally agree. The NE _does_ have to do battle against P.Tenuis. I would suspect a goat with swollen feet not to be suffering from Men. worm but a goat dragging its rear legs is.
    Talking with my vet I have learned that a rigorous regime of Ivomec might help but may not cure an infestation. Worming will only kill the parasite; if your animal has suffered nerve damage this will most likely be a lifelong condition.
     
  12. lgslgs

    lgslgs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,429
    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Location:
    Southeast Ohio
    From your other post, it sounds like you may be asking about the B-complex shot.

    I'm not going to suggest how you dose your goat, because I'm not a vet. But here's what you should know about the treatment we had for Buddy, our deerworm survivor.

    Before the vet prescibed a course of treatment, she went back to her office and called the vet hospital at either Ohio University or University of Ohio (I'm not sure which one, but it is the one that has the big department specializing in small ruminants and that has the big llama program.)

    Our treatment was 3 shots per day, every day for 10 days, and an oral medication daily as well. This included B-complex, antibiotics that could cross the blood brain barrier, and antiinflammatories. We were not told to use any wormers like Ivermec.

    Poor Buddy was a pincushion for 10 days., but yoiu could see his improvement daily. The vet says that a lot of folks she's worked with don't give the full course of shots and credits his survival to the fact that we followed directions and gave him 30 shots over 10 days.

    With that said, if you have only given one or two shots, call your vet and make sure that you understand the dosages and duration of treatment he/she suggests. It MAY just be a shot or two, but for us, it was sure a lot more than that.

    After the shot sequence, Buddy was markedly improved. About two to three weeks later he started looking a little run down and weedy again, and we repeated the B-complex series for another 10 days.

    Please don't start pincusioning your goat just because that was prescribed by our vet, but DO call your vet and make sure that you are very clear on dosages and frequency/length of treatment.

    I hope your little guy gets better.

    Lynda
     
  13. sue-b

    sue-b Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2004
    Location:
    WV
    The Vet looked at my goat and said he had P. Tenuis Men. worm. After the initial shots. The goat did not get better. I went to the Vet Monday and he gave me 100mL of Dexamethasone Solution and said give 20mL for 5 days and if this did not help, nothing would. This goats does not have swollen feet or legs; just at first dragging rear legs now down in legs.

    I wanted to try the B Vitamin that was suggested at this thread. I did buy, see above post, and give one inj of 1cc then in a few days give an inj of 2cc as this is what the bottle referred to 1-2 cc for goats. The bottle did not say how often to repeat. I mentioned about if I could give B Vitamin and the Vet blew me off; saying this was not the case. . . without going into details.

    I was thinking that what could a few injections of B Vitamin do to the goat since he is already down. It might help; however I don't know how much to give him.
     
  14. greyhound girl

    greyhound girl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    70
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Location:
    SE Ohio
    Isn't it interesting how different vets treat this worm? I have a Boer doe that was down with the worm 2 years ago - Ohio State recommended heavy doses of Ivermec for, I believe, 5 days in a row (she did not belong to me then), plus antibotics and B12. She recovered but had a weak back leg but could still climb hills and gallup along. She just had another bout with it, I guess it can lay dormant - I treated her again with heavy Ivermec doses (7 cc administered orally) for 7 days and she is now up and walking again. This doe with the first bout could not get up at all. I wish you well - it's a heartbreaking chore to deal with. By the way, a friend of mine has a llama who just had a second attack also, the Ivermec worked with him.
     
  15. lgslgs

    lgslgs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,429
    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Location:
    Southeast Ohio
    Greyhound Girl -

    Apparently the suggested treatments out of Ohio State have changed over the past few years. Our vet makes a habit of checking for their most current reco as cases in the area crop up. In fact, we had expected her to prescirbe Ivomec, but she went with the B complex, anti-inflammatories, and an antibiotic.

    Our treatment was based on March 2005 recommendations. I wouldn't be surprised if things have continued change as they learn more about the disease.

    BTW - which county are you in? We're in Jackson Co. And you aren't the Greyhound Girl who works in Wellston by any chance, are you? (With the new rescue greyhound this spring?)

    Lynda
     
  16. greyhound girl

    greyhound girl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    70
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Location:
    SE Ohio
    Lynda - my more "local" vet had prescribed antibotics, Banamine and heavy doses of Panacur for the reoccurring bout my doe just experienced I chose to try the Ivermec as it had worked for my friend's llama. Maybe that was wrong, but it did work. You're right - they are just learning more and more about this worm. I lost a goat about 7 years ago from what I believe now to have been men.worm. I had two different vets, who treated her. Neither knew what it could be - even after blood tests. I have heard of several different cases of cattle recently that they are suspecting of having been affected. I am in Monroe Co. - in the northeast corner.
     
  17. lgslgs

    lgslgs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,429
    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Location:
    Southeast Ohio
    Greyhound Girl -

    I heard about deerworm being suspected in cattle as well (one case I read about on the web). Have you heard of any local cases?

    I think we're going to bring Buddy, our deerworm survivor, back to the vet for a check up. He's sleek and strong looking, but recently it looks like he has a mild muscle strain in one back leg and he just showed with a "collar rub" type lesion. (Very mild, just a bit of hair off, but too much like the collar rub hair loss he had when ill in the spring). His coat, muscles, and attitude all look great, but we don't want to take any chances with him

    I wish there was more information about incubation times. We wonder if the tow that have had it were infected but not showing before we got them. We also wonder if some goats can shake off mild infections.

    I'm worried that it's going to take seeing deer worm in cattle before it gets treated as a real livestock crisis.

    Lynda
     
  18. greyhound girl

    greyhound girl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    70
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Location:
    SE Ohio
    Lynda - the cattle I heard about were local. I believe there were 3 different farms involved. I will try to find out more about it. The doe I have came from the farm where the llama that is infected lives. The goat herd there was about 30 or so. My little doe was infected, one llama died from it, the other was infected, and I believe only 2 other goats. So, maybe my other two does that came from that farm are also carrying the worm. I'm with you - I will be glad when more research is done on it. Dumplin (my doe) never had sores with either attack, but last year, when she was perfectly fine, she developed a horrible skin condition with sores all over - itchy. It never dawned on me, but I wonder if it was just another form of an attack. I don't understand if the worm lies dormant or if the nerve endings just suffer after a serious infection. If you find that out, would you please let me know? BYW I am not the greyhound girl you asked about. I have a rescue GH but the group I worked with is in NE Ohio.
     
  19. lgslgs

    lgslgs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,429
    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Location:
    Southeast Ohio
    Hi Greyhound Girl -

    Here is the place I first heard about the skin lesions http://users.1st.net/tspjael/threesprings/worm page update.htm

    I've never seen anything like that in person, though, thank goodness!

    Buddy's lesion, which may or may not be related to deer worm, just looks like a very small patch of ringworm or a bit of collar apbrasion. It is in the same location as the last photo on that web page, but much smaller and more subtle looking.

    The only reason we are on alert over Buddy's collar rub is that he had something like that last Spring when he had deerworm. We thought it was ringworm but it just didn't respond to any treatment and went away as soon as he had the deerworm treatment. It might have just been an oportunistic fungal infection because he was in quite weedy health at the time, but to see a small bit of "collar rub" at the same time we see something that looks like a mild hamstring strain in someone who has had deerworm before worries us. Especially if those awful looking lesions on that web page could be caused by deerworm.

    Buddy gets to go visit his friend the vet at 11:30 today. I hope we're just being over concerned, but if it is deerworm we've got a chance to catch it very early this time. I'll ask her what she's heard about deerworm and cattle while I'm there.

    More later today.

    Lynda
     
  20. lgslgs

    lgslgs Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,429
    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Location:
    Southeast Ohio
    Buddy's vet report: No definite signs of deerworm.

    Next steps are to watch the leg stiffness. If it persists beyond what you'd expect for a muscle strain, if there is stiffness in any other limb, or if the stiffness goes away but then comes back we are to treat for deerworm with the same medicine course Buddy had in the spring.

    As for the neck lesion, we have a topical treatment. If the lesion fails to respond to topical treatment we treat for deerworm.

    Finally, if we see any other deerworm indicator - drifting away from the herd, behavior changes, roach back, limb weakness, any loss of weight etc - we treat for deerworm.

    As for deerworm in cattle, all she's heard of so far has been the two calves that have positive necroscopies. (These are the ones you can find
    reported on the web.)

    She hasn't seen any fall deerworm yet in our area, but we've had a very dry Summer. We are also in a very poor county with a lot of $40 goats around. A lot of people shoot and buy a new goat instead of putting money into trying to care for one that's ill. (And don't even get me started on the way a lot of dogs live in this county!)

    It was a good visit. Well worth it for us to spend $30 on a $40 wether to get some clear guidance on whether to stay in "watch and wait" mode and when to start a course of medication. Buddy is a sweet little guy and he more than earns his keep with land clearance work. I'd rather be overcautious than risk having him as ill as he was last Spring.

    Lynda