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HOW do they DO that?
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Haha!
Picturing you and your pup carrying that carcass.....priceless.
Great story!

More likely deer was hit by car and died in field...probably had been there quite awhile if only bones left.
 

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Discussion Starter · #683 ·
Thanks for asking Wiscto. All is going well.

Valentina is still a VERY serious-minded canine and has definitely decided I'm one of her charges. Perfect example of this is the day I let a "friend" come into my house to help me with computer. Now Valentina had let this person on my place several times before; and even though she would follow with growls, she did let him come on into my house...with my standing between him and Valentina. Now this has always puzzled me because this man has ever been kind and respectful; also Valentina has let other strangers on the place, i.e. the oil man to put oil in the tank as well as the electrician to check the box. She would bark once then just watch...no growls. This one particular day this kind friend came into the house and the entire time he was in here (less than half an hour) Valentina continually circled the trailer looking up at the windows and bark/growl...the entire time. Have no idea as to why; but when the kind man was to leave my trailer, Valentina was ready to pounce and would have if I had not made it a point to be between her and this friend. Now it is quite obvious Valentina did not like this man to be inside my trailer, in fact I don't think she likes him at all. I have no idea as he has never hurt her... Anyway, this is an obvious sign Valentina sees me as one she wants to keep safe.

Other than this one incident, Valentina has continued to keep predators (even flying ones) off the place; and with Cujo's help has even killed several that made it in as far as the yard and/or chicken house.

Also, Valentina is so obedient...yes obedient...despite her willfulness to do what she thinks best despite what I want at the time, she is quite obedient. Example 1: I wanted to spray a wasp nest that was right on my back porch just above where the dogs enjoy laying at times. Valentina was there at the moment; so I told her to "move". She stood up and looked at me. I said "move" again calling her by name and she walked all the way down stairs. (At that time Cujo was in the way as well so I had to tell him to move too.) With both dogs down stairs I could spray the "Raid" on those wasps killing them all. Example 2: Both dogs had found a copperhead. I told them both to move. Valentina stood there looking at me. I said "move" again holding my shotgun; and she quickly moved back to stand and watch. So Valentina apparently knows when it is time to obey my commands quickly and when it is time to "think" about it. ROFL

She now weighs 88.9 lbs (Cujo is near this as well.), eats her "dried" food (reluctantly), will take Rx meds orally (reluctantly) and lets me brush her, clip her nails and what ever I want to do with no problems. If what I'm touching is sensitive, she will growl; but I just continue and she lets me. (This reminds me of the way she acted the last time she was in to see the vet. She did not growl once but kept her eyes focused "strongly" on me while the doctor and her assistant maneuvered her body in all kinds of ways so as to check her. She obviously trusts me to not let anyone hurt her; and that was at a time when she had a fever and was in pain which means she knew she was vulnerable.)

She also still runs so fast almost tripling her speed in a second when Cujo is chasing her. lol I'm still quite fond of this LGD; and though I've not heard of other Karakachans acting toward their owners quite like Valentina does with me, I have no doubt they have the propensities to do so.
 

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Discussion Starter · #685 ·
Both dogs ran, then looked back and returned to my side. LOL
 
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Both dogs ran, then looked back and returned to my side. LOL
LOL well they came back, that's good. I've seen a few have a really hard time with it. I saw a chocolate lab puppy handle it completely unfazed, that was impressive.
 

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LOL well they came back, that's good. I've seen a few have a really hard time with it. I saw a chocolate lab puppy handle it completely unfazed, that was impressive.
If a lab is bred right, it should be able to handle a shotgun unfazed. Any lab that offers to be gun shy should have never been bred to, at the very least. People responsible for making the lab would probably have a little more hardcore view of that particular dog, and possibly everything it was closely related to, in terms of what steps they would have gone to to ensure that it was never bred.
 
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Discussion Starter · #688 ·
.….Updating
Woke early as usual this morning so as to milk before the flies get up; and there just inside the garden fence not 5 ft from the chicken house door was another dead animal. It looks like a possum to me because of it's long smooth tail. Now Cujo cannot get into that area but Valentina slides in on her side where the geese exit/enter. So I know Valentina is the one who killed this thing. I checked her over and didn't find any blood or cut on her; so guess it didn't bite her as she killed it. Great job!! (Neither dog will eat this type of kill. Oh they will kill and eat a rabbit, even a squirrel Cujo managed to catch once; but they will not eat the ground hog or this possum thing.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #689 ·
Updating.....

Just a note to let those interested know that Valentina continues to be serious minded, alert with what looks like pride to me...lol...and think-for-self canine. I'm still very glad I got this type of LGD. She is 5 yrs old now, still with long hair I need to trim periodically and continues to let me trim her nails and doctor scratches.

Both Valentina and Cujo will alert me to crawlers on the place yet will not attempt to attack it. For that I'm thankful as I found another copperhead on the barn floor not 4 ft from where I was cleaning/refreshing watering pans for the goats. I killed it of course. Then I laid that carcass out on the place where I feed all fowl in the early mornings hoping they would start seeing this crawler as one to attack, kill and even eat. (Guineas would often do this on my aunt's place in Texas; so I'm hoping my fowl will do it too.) Cujo would not even go near the dead snake; and Valentina would go over and smell it ...from a distance... but not touch it.

One of the constants going on is that Valentina talks to me quite frequently. She will come tell me if something is occurring in the barn, i.e. most recent was the birth of a Nubian; and she will come inside my trailer and bark at me if she is wanting something to eat. LOL I'm only feeding my dogs once a day now; yet there are times when she wants something to eat between meals …..LOL Kinda like my wanting to snack. ROFL So I've taken to giving out their "treats" at such times, i.e. store-bought items that help keep the teeth clean.

This hot/humid weather has been difficult for both dogs to contend with. It has lessened their appetites as well. (It has mine too as all I want is something cold to drink.) Still both dogs have good weight on them and they have each found their special places to rest during the heat of the days.

My admiration for this breed continues...…...
 

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Thanks for asking Wiscto. All is going well.

Valentina is still a VERY serious-minded canine and has definitely decided I'm one of her charges. Perfect example of this is the day I let a "friend" come into my house to help me with computer. Now Valentina had let this person on my place several times before; and even though she would follow with growls, she did let him come on into my house...with my standing between him and Valentina. Now this has always puzzled me because this man has ever been kind and respectful; also Valentina has let other strangers on the place, i.e. the oil man to put oil in the tank as well as the electrician to check the box. She would bark once then just watch...no growls. This one particular day this kind friend came into the house and the entire time he was in here (less than half an hour) Valentina continually circled the trailer looking up at the windows and bark/growl...the entire time. Have no idea as to why; but when the kind man was to leave my trailer, Valentina was ready to pounce and would have if I had not made it a point to be between her and this friend. Now it is quite obvious Valentina did not like this man to be inside my trailer, in fact I don't think she likes him at all. I have no idea as he has never hurt her... Anyway, this is an obvious sign Valentina sees me as one she wants to keep safe.

Other than this one incident, Valentina has continued to keep predators (even flying ones) off the place; and with Cujo's help has even killed several that made it in as far as the yard and/or chicken house.

Also, Valentina is so obedient...yes obedient...despite her willfulness to do what she thinks best despite what I want at the time, she is quite obedient. Example 1: I wanted to spray a wasp nest that was right on my back porch just above where the dogs enjoy laying at times. Valentina was there at the moment; so I told her to "move". She stood up and looked at me. I said "move" again calling her by name and she walked all the way down stairs. (At that time Cujo was in the way as well so I had to tell him to move too.) With both dogs down stairs I could spray the "Raid" on those wasps killing them all. Example 2: Both dogs had found a copperhead. I told them both to move. Valentina stood there looking at me. I said "move" again holding my shotgun; and she quickly moved back to stand and watch. So Valentina apparently knows when it is time to obey my commands quickly and when it is time to "think" about it. ROFL

She now weighs 88.9 lbs (Cujo is near this as well.), eats her "dried" food (reluctantly), will take Rx meds orally (reluctantly) and lets me brush her, clip her nails and what ever I want to do with no problems. If what I'm touching is sensitive, she will growl; but I just continue and she lets me. (This reminds me of the way she acted the last time she was in to see the vet. She did not growl once but kept her eyes focused "strongly" on me while the doctor and her assistant maneuvered her body in all kinds of ways so as to check her. She obviously trusts me to not let anyone hurt her; and that was at a time when she had a fever and was in pain which means she knew she was vulnerable.)

She also still runs so fast almost tripling her speed in a second when Cujo is chasing her. lol I'm still quite fond of this LGD; and though I've not heard of other Karakachans acting toward their owners quite like Valentina does with me, I have no doubt they have the propensities to do so.
Dogs are usually a very good judge of people. If a dog acts like they don't like a particular person, in my experience there is a good reason. My Anatolians will bark to let me know that someone is on the property or coming up the driveway. But, with a few of them they will follow along and growl until they leave.

Sometimes I wish they could talk, and tell me what they really think.
 

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I've started reading about your dogs and it's an indirect learning experience so thanks for that! We're in the process of purchasing a house on 13 acres half surrounded by state land. There's cattle/horse fence and that's it. I'd very much love a livestock guardian to protect our flock of chickens and I'd like to slide into some goats as well. What sort of fencing do you use for your dogs and was it expensive?
 

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Discussion Starter · #692 ·
Hello Altair, congratulations on getting that house on 13 acres; and being surrounded by state land....hmmmm does that mean you have access to a pond for year round fishing and hunting during season?

The type of fencing is "woven" with holes small enough to keep even baby goats from going through. What I have is plain "field fencing" with holes smaller at the bottom and custom height is 48". (This also keeps in my free-ranging fowl, i.e. chickens, ducks and geese...all but the guineas as they fly over anything.) What is important for dogs and goats is the way you put that fencing up. That posed a problem for me in that at the time I put the fencing up it was only to keep in goats. Thus I placed the bottom of the fence 6" off the ground with fencing posts not more than 5- feet apart. I raise large Nubian dairy goats and they will not jump this fence nor will they crawl under in such a small space. For the dogs, however, this changed because they have no problems "digging" under a fence. (I have a lab and Karakachan; and both dig quite well.) So what I had to do to keep my dogs in was more than what most people would do; yet it works well for me.

This is what I did to make sure my dogs did not dig under the fence. I took a "galvanized" 3' wide "small chicken" fencing and cut it down the middle turning it into a 1-1/2 ft wide fence.
(Thus a 100 ft roll turned into a 200 ft roll.) Then I used the "cut" side to attach it to the bottom of the existing field fencing and let the rest of that chicken wire lay flat out on top of the ground. Then I laid either logs or rocks on top of this flat wire. This is not an easy thing to do; but well worth the effort. I only have 6 acres so it was much easier for me than it would be for you having 13 acres. My 6 acres is divided by fencing for my garden; so I actually only had to dog-proof the fencing on the front half of my homestead. And I learned by trial and error that it is best to simply start at one end and continuously lay that chicken wire all the way down the field fencing. You can skip areas where you know for sure nothing can dig (like large trees/roots and/or rocks).

Since my internal fencing consists of only what is around the garden (and my chicken house is inside that area) I put in what I call a "doggy door" which was a "V" shape in between two posts so as to let my dogs get into the garden without permitting the goats in. Also since I have ducks, geese and an assortment of fowl that do not fly well, I created a small area UNDER a couple of places on that garden fencing that permits the fowl exit/entrance; and my Karakachan (dog) lays on her side to use this.

Hope this helps.
 

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HOW do they DO that?
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Since my internal fencing consists of only what is around the garden (and my chicken house is inside that area) I put in what I call a "doggy door" which was a "V" shape in between two posts so as to let my dogs get into the garden without permitting the goats in.
Ooo I would love to see a pic of this V gate....with the dimensions... if possible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #694 ·
Aart I did post a picture of that gate on this thread quite awhile ago. And just now I went thru the last 5 pages attempting to find it. Since I didn't find it I suspect it is on a post farther back and I simply don't have time to look for it any farther. So I'll describe it as best I can.

I used two pieces of treated plywood approximately 2' x 2' each creating a "V" shape with them touching at the bottom. The EMPTY space between these boards are approximately 1-1/2' at the top. The adult goats can get their heads thru but cannot get their bodies thru it; however, baby goats can go thru it easily. Thus, when babies are around, that hole is covered with a piece of fencing until babies are too large to get thru it.
 
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HOW do they DO that?
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That's a great description!
How far from ground is the bottom of the 'V'?
What kind of goats do you have?

Line Diagram
 

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Discussion Starter · #696 ·
Aart move that top horizontal line to where it is touching the tops of those boards and you got it.

I raise large Nubian dairy goats.

The bottom of that "V" is just high enough for my dogs to step over it without having to jump.
 
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HOW do they DO that?
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Aart move that top horizontal line to where it is touching the tops of those boards and you got it.

I raise large Nubian dairy goats.

The bottom of that "V" is just high enough for my dogs to step over it without having to jump.
That is just a dimension line.
Ah, so large goats....wonders if it would work with nigerian dwarfs.
So bottom of 'V' is about a foot off the ground?
 

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Discussion Starter · #698 ·
Not sure it would work with Nigerian Dwarf goats. They are rather small.... What I'm thinking might work with them...if you had dogs that could jump...is place the "V" higher up so the ND cannot step thru......
 

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Yes, there is a pond on our part of the property! I haven't walked into the state land yet, though I was told the seller has trails there as they were allowed to tap the maples. Deer abound here in Vermont, I don't think we'll have any shortage of them, or turkeys.

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my question, I love to read your posts about your setup and dogs.

Hello Altair, congratulations on getting that house on 13 acres; and being surrounded by state land....hmmmm does that mean you have access to a pond for year round fishing and hunting during season?

The type of fencing is "woven" with holes small enough to keep even baby goats from going through. What I have is plain "field fencing" with holes smaller at the bottom and custom height is 48". (This also keeps in my free-ranging fowl, i.e. chickens, ducks and geese...all but the guineas as they fly over anything.) What is important for dogs and goats is the way you put that fencing up. That posed a problem for me in that at the time I put the fencing up it was only to keep in goats. Thus I placed the bottom of the fence 6" off the ground with fencing posts not more than 5- feet apart. I raise large Nubian dairy goats and they will not jump this fence nor will they crawl under in such a small space. For the dogs, however, this changed because they have no problems "digging" under a fence. (I have a lab and Karakachan; and both dig quite well.) So what I had to do to keep my dogs in was more than what most people would do; yet it works well for me.

This is what I did to make sure my dogs did not dig under the fence. I took a "galvanized" 3' wide "small chicken" fencing and cut it down the middle turning it into a 1-1/2 ft wide fence.
(Thus a 100 ft roll turned into a 200 ft roll.) Then I used the "cut" side to attach it to the bottom of the existing field fencing and let the rest of that chicken wire lay flat out on top of the ground. Then I laid either logs or rocks on top of this flat wire. This is not an easy thing to do; but well worth the effort. I only have 6 acres so it was much easier for me than it would be for you having 13 acres. My 6 acres is divided by fencing for my garden; so I actually only had to dog-proof the fencing on the front half of my homestead. And I learned by trial and error that it is best to simply start at one end and continuously lay that chicken wire all the way down the field fencing. You can skip areas where you know for sure nothing can dig (like large trees/roots and/or rocks).

Since my internal fencing consists of only what is around the garden (and my chicken house is inside that area) I put in what I call a "doggy door" which was a "V" shape in between two posts so as to let my dogs get into the garden without permitting the goats in. Also since I have ducks, geese and an assortment of fowl that do not fly well, I created a small area UNDER a couple of places on that garden fencing that permits the fowl exit/entrance; and my Karakachan (dog) lays on her side to use this.

Hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #700 ·
I was glad to help Altair. So many people on this forum have helped me that I feel good being able to pass the kindness to another.

I would be interested in knowing what you winded up doing with your land, if you did get goats what kind and if you did get an LGD what breed. Please know getting dogs acclimated to chickens has been quite different from their guarding the goats. Seems fowl invite a canine to disruptive behavior. Every single dog I've had, including this Karakachan, I've had to "teach" to leave the fowl alone; and this Karakachan has had to learn NOT to follow the guineas off the property, which I came to believe that is what she did for awhile. Seems the dogs on my place at least have had to learn what the different fowl do and permit it without bothering them. Valentina (and Cujo as well) will keep a "flying" predator from landing on this place; yet when the guineas return from their daily excursions, they are permitted to fly lengthy distances low to the ground without either dog bothering them.

Best of luck with your new adventure...
 
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