Line breeding?

Discussion in 'Goats' started by chma4, Mar 5, 2005.

  1. chma4

    chma4 Wolverton Family Farm Supporter

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    I am a dog breeder, and not a huge fan of line breeding dogs. Is line breeding common in livestock herds? Should I keep my does (hopefully I will get lots of does) even though I only keep one buck? Advice would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. elly_may

    elly_may Well-Known Member

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  3. Shazza

    Shazza Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hi, if you only have one buck and you want to keep any does from matings to him, then you will have to use another buck, or it is in-breeding not line breeding. I also breed dogs and line breeding assures me of the health of the line and knowing what I am getting...no genetic surprises from out crossing. Specially in dairy goats, if you have a line with lots of milk you want to keep it....:)
     
  4. chma4

    chma4 Wolverton Family Farm Supporter

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    In-breeding, line-breeding, call it what you want. I have a degree in Biology and "in-breeding" to be exact,as I had learned, is not actually considered "inbreeding" unless you breed brother to sister. But no one came here for a lesson in english or semantics. I have read alot of material that has suggested that one generation of father dauhter breeding is not harmfull to the genetic pool of goats. Others , like you, have said that its not good to do. I don't like it in dogs because I find that although I get positive physical trait enhancement, I beleive that their temperment is negatively affected. So I choose not t do it. As far as my goats are concerned, I just have such beautiful well formed does,that I paid top dollar for from different herders around the country, and none of them have any relation whatsoever (as far as 5 generations back),to the buck. so I dont know how differently this technique of father daughter breedings is used in livestock. Is it worth trying and possibly failing? I was hoping someone would tell me that they successfully do this.
    I know that my bucks mother and and grandmother had excellent udder confirmation , and both of my does come from good milking and confirmation lines themselves, I just think it might be a loss for me to sell their best doelings without considering breeding them back to their father, who I beleive is the finest example of a Nigerian Dwarf I have seen, and by far that I have on my farm.
    Help please!
     
  5. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    I just have such beautiful well formed does,that I paid top dollar for from different herders around the country, and none of them have any relation whatsoever (as far as 5 generations back),to the buck. so I dont know how differently this technique of father daughter breedings is used in livestock.
    .............................................

    Let me put this in Nubian terms. If this group of does were not related at all, and you then used an outcrossed buck on them also, your does would not breed true to TYPE. Using unrelated animals give you way to many gene pairs that are unsimilar to line up to be able to CONSISTANTLY give you anything PREDICTABLE. So that lovely uddered doe of mine who consistantly milks an even level lacation for 10 months out of a really nicely attached udder, with wonderful breed character and general appearance, will not then throw these traits she received from her ancestors, because we are now going to breed her to a buck with a whole nother set of genes for these same attributes.

    Of my 17 does in my barn, 99% of them have the same grandsire, granddam, when laying paperwork down from a doe of mine, next to the buck she is to be bred to, there is at least one triangle of similarity on the table, meaning if I draw a line from one paper to the next, there are similar sires or dams, even in the immediate 3 generation pedigree, and several others in the extended pedigree. The core of my herd comes from an old bloodline called Price of the Field, you will find this bloodline and those who have used this bloodline in all my paperwork. Even in what appears to be different bloodlines in my paperwork, like with my new buck, his granddam is out of a POTF buck. By breeding into a bloodline of goats, and knowing what bloodlines don't meld well with it, either by huge mistakes on my part, or listening to those who have bred the bloodline longer than my 18 years, I can breed a goat who is true to TYPE.

    When you see my goats you notice a very common look throughout all the goats, this is TYPE.

    If you look at most successfull breeders, course we all define success differently, they do indeed linebreed, and inbreed in the full sense of the word. Our breed registires also give us linebreeding percentages, which shows you that in the world of goats linebreeding is the norm, and something strived for.

    Taking a daughter back to her father the first year, will also show you in the kids any recessive genes you are carrying in the line. In Nubians mostly bite faults, in untested goats G6S could be a problem. There are few to no, really horrific abnormalities that crop in. And if you study genetics, there is a principal that shows you (and I don't remember the name of it) that breeding brother to sister is no closer than breeding Father to Daughter or Son to Mother, because of the amount of genes involved.

    By using new blood, like in the scenerio above, where I have brought in an unrelated on the dam side buckling, but that some of the blood does go back to the originating bloodline, you don't loose vigor, size or substance.

    The inbred nanny and billy herds that most people think when they hear someone breeding a buck over and over to the same does for years, usually the size stunting comes from worms, cocci, and nutrition, plus the fact that the buck is left in with the whole doe herd, and likely most of the bucklings that are born, breeding sister does way to early. Yes all my does do kid out on their first birthdays, but with correct managment they are well grown.

    And even writing this do I recommend new folks to do any of this, of course not, you need to breed your doe to kid before their 2nd birthdays. Don't keep older males if you can't control them. Follow the breeder of the goats you buy to improve them, until you learn what you even like, and what you are going to breed for.

    The best answer always to this question "Should I linebreed or inbreed" is always NO, if you have to ask the question you do not know enough about your goats or bloodlines to make a decision like that. Plus culling, most people are unwilling to cull the bad genetics that creep in, keeping parrot mouth kids, keeping extra teats, keeping pendulous udders with no attachment, and rebreeding them.

    And just like in humans you can't compare dogs and goats. I raise ShihTzu's to keep them small I do linebreed, my male comes out of a dam who carries a maternal gene for smallness, my females also come out of this line through a half sister of hers with a different sire who also has a maternal liine for smallness.

    It's hard to answer questions like this on this forum, since most of the theme is homesteading. I started with goats for my homestead, but soon loved the whole genetics thing, wanting better and better goats, finding showing is a good way to see how my breedings stack up, then selling milk, cheese, soap, and appraising now, so I have scores on my goats, not judged against another goat, but to the ideal goat. Does anyone have that ideal goat, no, but it is sure fun to try and breed her :) But I know most just want a doe who milks, or nurses kids for meat, want to learn good basic information. I remember my first goat meeting they were talking about this new test for CAE, shoot all I wanted to learn was how to trim my goats hooves :) Vicki
     
  6. shorty'smom

    shorty'smom Well-Known Member

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    Vicki you are a wealth of information.

    I also studied Biology in college and nursing. I took 2 genetics courses and the more I learned, the more I found there was to learn. All animals are different and inheritance isn't always so clearcut as it seems, just in humans it can get interesting, with crossovers that can occur and several other interesting little variations.

    Where can I get more information on goat genetics and patterns of inheritance and such.

    I want to try to get a few nice does bred. I'm finding, as you did, that I am enjoying more than just having some milk. Heck, I didn't even plan to have the milking component. I was sort of thrust into it to take care of kids. I like it. I want to produce a few nice nubians someday. I wish I could get a few straws for AI from you, if you do that sort of thing. I'd have my vet do it for me. I don't know how. I want to breed my boers for show and meat. I want my boers to adhere to breed standard and to eventually get registered. I have a nice doe that just gave me a truly beautiful set of doelings. They are nice. The kids from this buck mostly do look nice and I get boer coloration even from nubian mothers. I plan to phase out the nubian in the boer herd over time as I can afford better does. I will probably have to cull Honey, or keep her as a pet. I like her as a pet. I won't make any money with her for sure. I'd like to AI my old doe with the lovely udder and CAE and take her kids away from her at birth. She probably had been a good mother one time too. She cried for the kids for 2 weeks and still looks over all the new babies for hers. Is good mothering an inherited trait, or just temperament?
     
  7. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Getting information on goat genetics isn't going to be in a book, it happens by talking bloodlines with breeders doing it. When I bought my first Nubians, I wish I knew half of what I know now, what I did find out in about 2 seasons was, to fullfill my dreams of a herd I could be proud of and win or at least not hold up the end of the line :) was to sell these Nubians and buy better. I went to the sale barn with my entire herd, the hardest day of my life, and sold everyone. I gave the paperwork to the guy, told him to mail me a check, and left. I then used the money, sold about 25 head, to purchase 3 nice does, and deposited a very nice buck, and started over. One of these does has a great great grand daughter who is having babies in the next week, from this purchase 15 years ago.

    Unless you fell into a really nice Nubian with your favorite, it's highly unlikely that even breeding her to the very best of bucks, and shoot don't buy semen from me, buy from someone I would want to buy semen from :) that he will do enough to the doe to make a huge impact. If a buck can improve a (lets say udder) by 50% is that udder a show udder with a 50% improvement, likely not, especially if the buck adds even more milk to poor atachements.

    Make sure and read the boer breed standards, especially those on upgrading.

    Mothering is something that simply comes natural or it doesn't. My bitches are littermate sisters, one is a wonder mother, one is a good mother, and one is a poor mother. Plus once you start getting into showing, or appraising, because you want others to see how good a goats you are breeding :) you don't want the kids nursing anyway, they demand more milk from one side or the other, a teat gets larger, an udder gets lopsided, and it ruins the whole look :) It really is a whole nother world :) Vicki
     
  8. shorty'smom

    shorty'smom Well-Known Member

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    Honey doesn't have poor attachment, she's just a teeny little gal in the udder dept. Not a milking girl. Harriet's udder actually seems to be growing. I milk her at 6am and 6 pm now. she gives me almost half a gallon a day now and her teats have grown to just fit my hands very nicely. Her milk is DELICIOUS. Rich and creamy, and smells lovely going in the bucket. I cannot tell her milk from cow's milk for taste. The best of the 5 I milk right now. Isn't that something? She's gone from a pint a day to a half gallon in just a few weeks, as I began demanding it of her. She eats plenty and I'm worried that she may be getting a little heavy, but it may just be her rumen getting larger. I guess I'll cull Honey. I'm just shooting for good milk production for home use right now, and just for fun. I may be bitten by the show bug or dairying bug, but I'll have to wait for my pocketbook to catch up to me.

    You most likely use a milking machine, but you've had to hand milk at some time for sure. Do you milk from the side or the back of the goat and does it matter? I had to build my stand to close in the sides so I can use it to restrain my boers (I have a few who will produce so much milk they have to be managed to prevent mastitis if they don't have but one kid.) Those wild girls need to have no option but to stay right there. I milk from behind. I find that I can often keep the doe from putting her foot back into the bucket, or kicking it over, by spreading my arms out to block the leg. I can't do that very well from the side. The problem I'm encountering is that 2 of the does (who nurse kids) will lie down on me and I can do little about it when she decides to do that. I haven't got the strength to hold her up from the side anyway, if she decides to lie down. I've had rotator cuff surgery, have a permanently dislocated clavicle on the right side and have had a spinal fusion with a titanium plate in my neck. I just can't do it. Is there anything short of brute force that you can think of that may help me teach these girls to behave? Right now I don't have to strip them, they've got kids to do that.
     
  9. shorty'smom

    shorty'smom Well-Known Member

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    The one I'm thinking of AI-ing is the older doe with CAE. I think she's a cull from a dairy herd. Her udder is very nicely attached, large and capacious looking. It is just hard. She has swollen knees and walks slowly. I'm sure she has CAE, but I can have her tested. I just would like a daughter out of her who doesn't get CAE from a dairying buck. I just have a feeling that the kid would be good, if just for my personal use. I'm still learning about this thing. I may be better off just selling Honey and Nub(the CAE doe) and getting myself something with good bloodlines. I don't know of anybody with a good Nubian line though. So far I've been forced to buy my goats at the sale ring. My boer buck did come from a breeder however, and a few of my boer does. Maybe I should sell all my nubians and start over. I only own 4 or 5 of them. I got a book on dairying yesterday. I've got a ways to go, but I'm not doing too badly for a beginner with milk handling. However, it says "dust free" and "cleaner than my kitchen." Well, I use my kitchen, so that's not going to work for grade A. :) My pocketbook needs to catch up with me there too.
     
  10. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Shoot you are in Nubian heaven where you live. Price of the Field and Easy Stream to just name a tiny few are up near you in Pryor. Join ADGA adga.org, or start with going to the website and looking up a club in your area, join and start meeting folks with goats. Go to a show or two, most clubs put them on once a year, and really start studying who is doing what in your area. Notice what the winners are feeding. And look into the right ear of your Nubians with a strong flash light shined through them. A cull from an action barn if you live in this area, could eaisly be a doe who contracted untreatable mastitis, culled from a show herd, or a doe positive for CAE. I would have her tested since mycoplasma has the same symptoms, except the joints are usually more painful in mycoplasma, where in CAE they are just swollen with fluid.

    I would not keep a symptomatic doe around in my herd, the chance of transmission is way to great in a doe carrying the disease in her joint fluids, nasal passages, blood, milk, birthing fluids one scratch and she can give this to other goats, certainly a whole nother thing to be positive yet unsymptomatic. Plus you have the smallest of chances of like a mother with HIV who passes in utero HIV to her baby, failed placenta?? this can also happen in symptomatic goats.

    Yes I use a machine now, but I have hand milked before :) I sit at the side of the goat facing their rear, put my legs up on the milkstand, bend at the waist and milk. I do not like milking from the rear, nor do I like sitting side saddle. I use a chair, rolling mechanics chair with a padded seat, found at Sams, to sit on, with my asthma I don't like sitting on the edge of the milkstand with my face in the does side. Milking times and how you milk is also personal preference, all the doe cares is that you get her empty. That you don't pull on the teats.

    I will cull a doe with bad milkstand manners, does who will not come to me when it's their turn to come to the door and get on the stand. You would have to be a top show doe in your age group to stay :) I sell milk, so milk is the first priority, but milk from a doe I can win with in the showring is the goal. I could not wrestle with a goat to just milk her, and certainly couldn't do it everyday twice a day for 10 months.

    Does who try to lay down on the milkstand...put a 5 gallon bucket on it's side under them, milk from the rear, use hobbles for their rear feet, be stern. When you raise your own kids, on heat treated colostrum and pasturised milk, these bottle kids will grow up with you as thier mom, they have such a different attitude about life, when bottled. You will so much more enjoy your diarying experience when you don't have to rodeo them. It takes the same amount of money and less time to milk one really good milker, who gives you kids you can sell for a good chunk of change, than to milk 2 or 3 does who give less, cause you greif or who are diseased, unregistered so you are back to that $75 goat sales, or worse meat prices.

    There are abudances of doelings this time of year, especially at dairies, you could eaisly sell what you have and replace them with a couple of dairy doelings. Most dairies and larger herds sell their first fresheners bucklings cheap, the doe only has a junior show record, so the kids even though the dam herself is out of the older does who are shown, aren't worth much. We just want them gone. Another inexpensive way of getting into registered Nubians is the first freshener, a doe who has just kidded who does not have an udder a show herd can show, but she does have all the genetics, bred to a good buck she can give you show or saleable kids. Good luck with this.

    Might want to visit us at dairygoatsplus.com Vicki
     
  11. shorty'smom

    shorty'smom Well-Known Member

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    Doggone. I almost went to Pryor. I got these at Perry. I've heard they have better animals at Perkins and Pryor, so I plan to go there next time. Right now there are a few registered south african sellers at Perry. Sometimes that bid gets a bit too rich for my blood though. I did get a bred doe who came through with a pair of bucklings for me. I'm not as impressed with them as the kids that come from my buck however. But, from what I've been reading, a kid that isn't as filled out and bulky looking, may turn out better in the end, when he adds some muscle on that frame. In cattle it's the weaning weights you are striving for. I guess with goats its different? Calves are sold at weaning. Right now the cow-calf operators are riding high, with 1.30 to 1.40 a pound for those calves. (I wish I was selling instead of buying.) The smaller weights (300 to 400 pounds) on large framed cattle are the most expensive ( most in demand) because the stocker operator (like us) can put more gain on those animals. I haven't quite got a handle on this meat goat sale thing yet. But I know what a good beef calf looks like, and I think some of my little goats look pretty "beefy" at weaning time, not fatty, but "beefy."