Lets talk bulls!

Discussion in 'Cattle' started by JeffNY, Sep 9, 2005.

  1. JeffNY

    JeffNY Seeking Type

    Messages:
    2,102
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2004
    Location:
    New York
    Funny how you learn when you go to shows, when you study things on animals, then reflect back when I knew nothing and it is very helpfull with breeding. But boy, the funny trick with picking bulls for heifers, calving ease bulls. While the ones I want to use, the ones that are good bulls aren't calving ease, so its the waiting game! See I was going to use outside on a lot of my heifers, he has size etc. Good show ring animals etc, high reliability etc etc. But he is 10% :p. So the search was on, what to use, what to use. What do I want, don't want, what to take chances with. Afterall the second crop from these guys is where I can use the good bulls, like kite, outside and others. So here is what I am using, and my reasons why!

    On my heifers that have decent size, have some work to do with them, F&L, body etc. I am using a fairly new bull, but seems to have a good deal behind him. The bull is AltaORBIT. A son of Aaron, minus the frail trait. Orbit has a good udder composite score, and F&L. He seems to shine with the F&L score. The udder is no joke either, and is way up there compared to his sire. He has good genetics behind him, many VG's, and some EX's. He is calving ease with some size.

    On the heifers that need some size, especially one of them will be bred to merchant. 6% calving ease, 2.7 on stature, and has good udder traits, along with positive feet and legs. Posty, vs sickle etc etc. I did buy some kite for next year, going to use him on my rubens cows (cows next go around). He was reccomended to me by Mark (owner of kite), due to the red factor (I want to some red animals next go around :)).

    The other bull I amgoing with is Axiom, backup bull for some that do not take with the other bulls. Would be nice if they all took, get some daughters from some of them, to see how they paired. As the breeder said, it matters and does not matter. You can breed to the best bull out there and get a puke, and breed to the worse bull and get a gem. So with 5 of each (if they take) I will get a good variation. Besides the only way to learn is to try! :). I would have used Roy, but he scores a little too much on the sickled legs. Drake was another, however he also scored on the sickled side. Sure I could get a nice posty heifer, however what if I got a sickled heifer? :). I'll take those chances in the future. But for now naaa, experiment a little.


    Now for a question, its a broad question, going to list a few bulls...


    Goldwyn,
    Dundee
    Distrigene-Red
    Comestar Lheros
    Talent
    Mr Samuelo (DurhamxEmory)

    Any others?

    I would use dundee, when I have cows. But im curious, your input :).


    Jeff
     
  2. Ken Scharabok

    Ken Scharabok In Remembrance

    Messages:
    6,844
    Joined:
    May 11, 2002
    99.99% of this forum won't understand your question and the other .01% is likely you.

    Apparently you are talking about a purebred breed without even indicating what it is. Even if so identified, we are hobbiest, more or less, not professionals. Suggest asking the question in that particular breed's breeder forum.
     

  3. Haggis

    Haggis MacCurmudgeon

    Messages:
    2,246
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2004
    Location:
    Northeastern Minnesota
    What'd he say?
     
  4. agmantoo

    agmantoo agmantoo Supporter

    Messages:
    10,854
    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Location:
    Zone 7
    He said he has some heifers that he wants to get some decent calves from without having calving problems. Therefore, he is selecting sires with traits that produce small calves to assist in accomplishing this result. Then he said the supplier states that maybe the semen will give the results and maybe not (read that as a disclaimer if the results are unsatisfactory). So now, he is going to try semen sourced from different bulls and hope things turn out and that he will get some red colored decent stock that he can show.
     
  5. Tom McLaughlin

    Tom McLaughlin Tom

    Messages:
    115
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Have you tried the aAa method of evaluation.. www.aAa123456.com. We bred 2 cows using it and really happy with one of the calves and not so happy with the other. Mostly because it was our 5th bull calf in a row.... The heifer calf is a really, really nice polled(Jersey).
     
  6. MissKitty

    MissKitty Mrs. no longer OldGrouch.

    Messages:
    396
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2005
    Location:
    AR
    What breed of bovine are you a talking about???...Now if it was Jersey sperm I could tell you something about that...Since we raise registeresd Jerseys...We use AI and buy the straws of seman...Our little Jersey heifer is the daughter of Windy Willow Montana Jace and the granddaughter of Paramount...Our Jersey milk cow is the daughter of Paramount and the granddaughter of Duncan Belle...When it comes time to breed our little heifer I want to get a sire in the top 5 that isn't kin to her...We are so proud of our Jerseys and give some GOOD milk...MissKitty :D
     
  7. milkstoolcowboy

    milkstoolcowboy Farmer

    Messages:
    337
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2003
    Location:
    MN
    Hey, how about letting him speak his piece and if you don't like it or don't understand, so be it. He's a young guy trying to get some advice on mating, is that OK or are we only allowed to talk about how cute a newborn calf is?

    Jeff, For what it's worth, don't get too much in love with those Canadian sires. They're tall and typey, but you've got to put milk in the tank, and when I think back to past years when I had Inspirations, Starbucks, Triple Threats and Quality Ultimates, they were tall and had excellent confirmation, but other than the Starbucks, they didn't enhance production and components. Plus, with Starbuck, you'd get those unbelievably typey heifer calves that would damn near kill the cow in calving. Starbuck sons and grandsons are much better. This goes to show that you have to be careful where you introduce these Canadian sires into your herd. Focus on dairy character and confirmation, strong feet and legs, correct udders for longevity and breed for production. Don't forget your components; I've never had trouble selling sharp dairy character cows with 4% + fat lactation averages. More money was lost than ever made in the show ring.

    I wouldn't want to try to run Jerseys, Swiss, Red Holsteins and Holsteins -- too much to keep up with. Do you want the Reds to show or just for fun? Not the same breadth of genetics there, and I wouldn't sacrifice production for color. Kite? Typey but virtually no production there, and watch those high tailheads/high pins -- watch the correlation to difficulty settling and reproductive problems.

    Comestar Lheros -- Like his daughters, works good to up-size offspring on pedigrees with strong production. Drake I happen to like quite a bit -- if you've got a nice-rumped cow with some straightness of leg, he's just the ticket. Goldwyn is promising, but I've heard his daughters are quite shallow-framed. If you have a thicker, rougher cow, he'll really clean up her lines, but not for use on heifers.

    As for Merchant, are you talking about the ABS bull? My numbers on him are not that high for calving ease or stature, and he is not known as improving udders at all.

    Talent -- typical Canadian, tremendous type, tend toward a bit shallow-frame, not production improving and wouldn't go anywhere near heifers or smaller cows with his calving difficulty numbers.

    Outside is one of the few Canadian sires I like. Milking two Outsides, and through careful mating these cows have adequate set to the rear legs. Dundee heifers are beautiful, but damn big calves. I'll probably sell the Dundees before they freshen.

    AltaOrbit is like a lot of the hot bulls today -- straight-legged and high pins but tall, framy cattle. Axiom has more of what I like but he's less proven.

    You've got to talk to guys who've seen lots of heifers from these bulls. Typically, that is guys who work as maters or classifiers for Holstein Association. They can be real helpful, particularly for bulls who have been proven using only a limited number of herds. I pay for mating service and a mater to come in not because I always use his recommendations, but I want to pick his brain about what he's seen. You can't always trust what the technicians and semen salesmen from the studs are telling you -- some want to sell semen.

    Of course, not even the best throw all outstanding daughters, but I'll give you some of my favorite all-time bulls: Osborndale Ivanhoe, Pineyhill Majority, Paclamar Bootmaker, Arlinda Commander and Straight-Pine Elevation Pete. I'd take a barn full of Commanders and Straight-Pine Pete's sight unseen. Never had a bad one and they combined type, dairy character and outstanding production.

    Here ends today's lesson, got to get back to work.
     
  8. evermoor

    evermoor Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    256
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Sounds like a good group of sires,for all I know. I'm no Holstein expert, but our Rubens is hopefully carry a Kite preg. We go over boaRD ON THE CAnadain and really don't see much differences between American and Canadain other than a lot of American blow the sacks off as young cows. You may want to try a different site like
    http://www.cowtalk.co.uk/
    Lots of good talk from around the globe
     
  9. JeffNY

    JeffNY Seeking Type

    Messages:
    2,102
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2004
    Location:
    New York
    The two id use kite on next year, would be the rubens heifers I have. The reason for the red factor is from what i understand the red holsteins are becoming popular again, and i've seen some decent reds out there. The red holstein we have was bred to dante, while my other rubens was bred to bossside ruben, we shall see what happens. But the orbit, he has a high F&L composite score, and his udder composite is also high.

    11HO07434 for Altaorbit for info @ www.altagenetics.com

    Here are some numbers.

    PTA TYPE +2.02 UDC +2.57 FLC +2.31 80% Rel
    Stature +0.90 Tall
    Strength +0.71 Strong
    Body Depth +0.77 Deep
    Dairy Form +1.26 Open
    Rump Angle -0.77 High Pins
    Thurl Width +0.01 Wide
    R. Legs-S View -2.63 Posty
    R. Legs-R View +4.36 Straight
    Foot Angle +2.79 Steep
    F & L Score +1.27 High
    F. Udder Att. +2.76 Strong
    R. Udder Ht. +3.89 High
    R. Udder Wid. +3.54 Wide
    Udder Cleft +2.75 Strong
    Udder Depth +1.60 Shallow
    F. Teat Place. +2.05 Close
    Teat Length +1.05 Long

    Most of the heifers im using him on have slighty hock in, and a couple have some sickled to their legs. But the bulls I want to use will be the next go around, such as outside, and others.

    The merchant I mention is from alta, here are his numbers.

    AltaMERCHANT born 9/10/97
    011HO05549

    PTA TYPE +2.03 UDC +2.24 FLC +1.20 89% Rel TPI 1503

    Stature +2.78 Tall
    Strength +1.05 Strong
    Body Depth +1.36 Deep
    Dairy Form +1.40 Open
    Rump Angle +1.21 Sloped
    Thurl Width -0.23 Narrow
    R. Legs-S View -0.82 Posty
    R. Legs-R View +0.73 Straight
    Foot Angle +1.53 Steep
    F & L Score +1.27 High
    F. Udder Att. +2.21 Strong
    R. Udder Ht. +2.44 High
    R. Udder Wid. +0.77 Wide
    Udder Cleft +2.81 Strong
    Udder Depth +2.98 Shallow
    F. Teat Place. +1.44 Close
    Teat Length +0.49 Long

    He isn't bad with udders, positive with production, etc. The heifers im using him with need some height. But what im lacking, is the fact I can't see the dams, and I need to see the udders on these guys before I can figure what needs improvement. So I went with some strengths, and calving ease.


    Either way, untill then.. Thanks.


    Jeff
     
  10. milkstoolcowboy

    milkstoolcowboy Farmer

    Messages:
    337
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2003
    Location:
    MN
    Jeff,
    Sorry for the mixup. I see you were talking about the Alta Genetics Merchant. That explains it.
     
  11. DaleK

    DaleK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,144
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2004
    Location:
    East-Central Ontario
    Jeff, don't go overboard worrying about using only very low calving ease bulls on heifers, just avoid the extremely bad ones. If you only use the lowest ones, you'll end up with cows that will need to have calving ease bulls used on them in the future because they'll have more trouble calving a calf from an "average" bull.

    My favourites right now are Blitz (when I can afford him), Bo-Irish RJ Lead Ready (fancy, fancy heifers), Ricecrest Emmett, and when I want a little fancy type without worrying much about production, Erbacres Damion.
     
  12. willow_girl

    willow_girl Very Dairy

    Messages:
    14,609
    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2002
    Location:
    Dysfunction Junction
    Jeff, I thank you for this thread.
    I am trying to learn something in this area and it is hard to find nonbiased info out there.
     
  13. JeffNY

    JeffNY Seeking Type

    Messages:
    2,102
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2004
    Location:
    New York
    Blitz I might get some of before I am done buying semen, I did like his numbers and the fact he is way up there with production, and decent with type. I like him.


    The way I work "calving ease" into my beef cattle, is wait till 2 yrs 3 months or so before sticking them with a bull. Then when they calve they are around 3. It works well, because I have had some big calves, and when they were 2, they didn't do as well as when the first calf heifers are 3. There are people out there that like their cows calving under 2 yrs of age (if the animal is big, sure, but come on!). Some wait till 2.5 to 3 yrs. A lot of it seems to be $$$ and raising an animal another 12 months before calving is a loss. So my animals will range between 24 and 26 months for the holsteins, while my swiss will be a little older. The Jerseys just about 23 months. But the main reason for calving ease, is the fact those dairy animals have more value than the beef. If a beef calf does not make it, it isn't good. But I won't loose sleep over it. If I lost a dairy cow (beef cow is as bad, but they are hardy), and calf because it was a difficult birth. I would loose days..


    Jeff