Knocked down again...more ramblings....

Discussion in 'Homesteading Questions' started by Jagger, Jun 2, 2004.

  1. Jagger

    Jagger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    61
    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Location:
    Ohio...but not for long
    Hello everyone,
    I couldn't sleep last night so im up at the crack of dawn, again. I have been fiddling around on this thing for awhile now.

    Many of you who may be reading this already know most of the ups and downs i've been dealing with the past couple months. I'm really up against the wall on this one. The land that i told about a few days ago did not go thru. Evidently the man who was selling the property got a cash bid for the place. Money talks and BS walks, so goes the world. I also made a decision. I wrote ozarkland and told them to refund my first payment. They agreed and it should have been put in the mail yesterday.

    Everything is gone now, a clean slate. Back to square one. We will have to vacate this place at the end of June. I cannot figure out what to do? Where to go? I have been searching local listings, calling places on the phone, and checking the web. No luck thus far. I thought this was the land of oppurtunity? The land of milk and honey.? I am begining to feel as though i will never get out of the cycle i am in. We have been looking at a few rentals, but they are dumps for $500 a month. If we do find something that is in our price range like around $300-$400 a month, they are way too small and in disrepair, crawling with cockroaches, stink like the sewer dumps under the house, or the place is covered in animal urine smells. Give me a break. I want to find something within an hour or two of our current place. I don't think that can happen. But i think i would go to any surrounding state.

    I'm am feeling so sucked down by all of this. Getting my hopes sky high, and feeling a little releived, just to have it all come crashing down. Why can't i find just a couple acres, thats all i want just a couple acres. That someone would sell me on payments,easy terms. I dont want lots of land, i dont particulary need it, i just want some place to call HOME. A place where i can build a house, raise my childeren, afew chickens, a couple of goats. A place where my dogs can lay in the shade looking onto their land. A place where i can plant a garden, and raise other food stuffs. A place my wife and I can grow old together on. A place where we can raise our family. Am i asking for too much. Is it asking too much for a little peice of ground?

    I dream daily of being in the garden, i drive down the country roads looking for land and i see peoples garden plots. Or some guy out there hoeing his sweet corn patch. I wish i was him. I may stop at someones house to ask directions or to ask about information on a peice of land. I hear their chickens cackling in the back yard or the rooster crows, it takes me to another world, another time. I am lost in the 21st century. I do not fit in. I will never fit in. I am an outcast of society. I am a disgrace as a husband as well as a father. I cannot care for my family as they need to be taken care of. This city limits me so. I feel myself becoming more and more hostile everyday. The pain i am dealing with hurts me more and more with each passing minute. I need to make a change now before its too late, before i go any farther. I can feel that place, that horrible place called a homeless shelter, its calling out my name its searching for me. Its trying to suck me back in. Let me out, LET ME OUT!!!! The face of poverty laughs in my face, telling me i'll never succeed...

    Is there no hope for the ones that have nothing? No hope for the common man. I know i should keep working hard and saving my money, but guess what i can't. I bring home on avg. about $1200 a month(WHOOPEE!!!) If i pay $500-$600 a month for rent an then pay for electric, water, sewage, sanitation, gas etc.. that's another $200 a month easy. More like $300. I then have to feed myself and family as well as put clothes on our back. There is the truck and car to think about with insurance, tags, and fuel. Not to mention upkeep. I cant work any harder than i do. I have tried to find another job, but they all pay about the same, unless i want to drive 40 miles to hell known as Columbus Ohio. Then with the travel expenses im better off just taking a lower paid position that is closer to my home.

    I have no idea what we are going to do. The end of June is fast approaching. My money reserves are next to nothing. All i had went into this trip to MO. Now that is gone. To tell you the truth my wife does not want to move there. I actually think she has a problem with moving out into the sticks now since she is carrying our baby. I mean she would be happy if we had electricity at least. I dont know. I don't know anything any more. I feel so helpless. Nowhere to go, nowhere to turn.

    I guess i should stop being a cry baby and keep searching.

    Jagger
     
  2. Nick

    Nick Guest

    you sound like you need sympathy. ok you got it. now get yourselfs together and do not whine about hard luck. God will take care of you. God bless you
     

  3. Amy Jo

    Amy Jo Well-Known Member

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    Jagger, what kind of work do you do? Do you have dependable transportation? I ask because you could probably find housing in East Brady, PA (other affordable locations are Franklin, Oil City, Parker and Bruin - though the town of Bruin has some environmental concerns) or around that area, but there aren't many jobs there... you'd have to commute. Maybe as far as southern Butler County/northern Allegheny County, but could always "get in" and then look towards finding jobs closer to "home". Aldi's is putting in a warehouse in southern Butler County with some jobs paying as much as $19 an hour.
     
  4. Torch

    Torch Well-Known Member

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    Location:
    In the piney woods of the great state of Texas.
    Jagger,

    I'm sorry that things are not working out the way you would want them to. I will pray for you and your family, I hope that you are doing the same. Eventually the tide will turn and you will either find a way to live your dream or you will find a way to be content with your current situation. Where you are, mentally, right now is not going to lead to anything productive so you should seriously think about changing your attitude. If you won't do it for yourself, do it for your family.

    As far as I can see, nobody has done anything bad to you, you're just not getting what you want so you're upset about it.

    Fine, be upset. Be upset and start working to improve your situation. Be upset and start praying if you are not already doing so. Be upset and start looking for another job. Be upset and put together a plan on how you can change your situation. Eventually you will be so busy looking, working, praying and planning that you won't have time to be upset anymore.

    You're young and life takes time. Don't rush things. When it is time for you to do something different, you will know and you won't feel so confused by it all.
     
  5. Snowdancer

    Snowdancer Well-Known Member

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    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Location:
    Dyersville, Iowa
    There's a new Super Lowes that's accepting applications in Glasgow,KY. It's a smaller city around 15,000 but all of the outlying area is rural-some really rural!! :haha: The zip code for Glasgow is 42141 if you want to do a mapquest to see how far it is from your current place.

    Land and older homes are very reasonable. Property taxes are low but auto insurance is high. We have a 40 acre farm with a very nice house and outbuildings and our taxes are $398/yr. We bought 32 acres for $19,000 in 1998 but I've seen land still priced less than $500/acre in the newspaper.
    I know of one place where the house probably will need to either be torn down or majorly renovated with what looks to be about 1 1/2 to 2 acres for $6,950.00-it's about 2 miles from me. We don't have building codes here and very few restrictions(usually the restrictions are in newly cut up farms now called 'developments' :no: )

    If you're interested in southern KY, pm me and I'll be glad to send you a list of real estate agents that deal with lower priced as well as higher end homes/land.
    Rents can be as low as $250 but usually run at least $325, some places allow dogs with a damage deposit.

    Also, check out this site for work in any area of the country. I realize you have a job there but if you are thinking about relocating this may help you see what the new area will have as far as jobs.

    www.jobsearch.org

    Good Luck,
    Kathy
     
  6. JulieNC

    JulieNC Well-Known Member

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    Was there no other land offered by Ozardland that worked for you? I've seen posts about the company, and they've all been positive about the owner as well as the financing he sets up. Even though I'm quite happy where I am, I have to admit that I'm on Ozarkland's e-mail list, and I enjoy looking through the listings.

    Then again, if your wife is reluctant to live without electricity and move too far away (which is understandable, her being pregnant), then maybe this was fate's way of helping you not to bite off more than you can chew right now.

    It sounds as if you and your wife really need to have a heart-to-heart talk about what you, as a family, want/need right now. It may be that if you plan to stay in the same area for now, with plans to move in 2 years (for example), that would be enough to keep your spirits up and give you some more time to plan (and hopefully put some money aside).

    There are no easy answers here, and while you're entitled to feel frustrated, the end of the months is just around the corner, and so you don't have the luxury of feeling too sorry for yourself. :) Start putting out the word that you're looking for a place to rent. You won't find the perfect place, but even if a place is too small, you can make do. Most of us have far more possessions than we need. Remember--the place you rent today isn't the place where you'll be in a year or two if you work hard at making plans.

    Let us know how things are going. I've been following your story and I think of your family often. You have a lot of good wishes coming from folks on this board, and that's got to count for something.
     
  7. humminbird

    humminbird Member

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    Jun 2, 2004
    Location:
    missouri
    Hello everyone...I stumbled onto the site this morning while looking for info on, (of all things!) crawdads!! I'm not sure if hubby and I still qualify as homesteaders or not...we've went pretty modern the last couple years, well modern at least for us! ;) But I really enjoyed looking over the ozarkland site posted and reading some of the threads. Would love to have a little piece of Arkansas, or southern Missouri mountain top...Branson is my favorite area to go camping, but alas, our place here started from scratch and is as close to heaven as I'll get this side I'm sure. And I'm not sure our backs and age would hold out for anymore than what we've got right now! ha!

    We're in the ozarks, the upper side, in the lake ozark region, although we are at least nine miles from the lake. I'm not a water person so that doesn't bother me one bit...I prefer the "brush" and hillsides! We've had our place now for 17 yrs. and it was mainly buckbrush and poison ivy when we started. A few goats took care of most of the clearing for us in the early days, as well as a chainsaw and pry bar. We've raised our three kids here on one income and now are enjoying our three grandkids who all live close.

    Jagger...I just wanted to say that old cliche of "where there's a will there's a way" really is true. It sounds to me as if you've already been down the road of hard knocks a few times and you didn't learn all those things you now know how to do by setting on your laurels...a person with the resources and talents you say you have can accomplish a lot! I firmly believe when one door closes another one is there to open and for a reason, it may not be what we had hoped for at the time, but a few years down the road may make the opening seem a lot clearer.

    I hope to get to know a few of you, maybe exchange some thoughts and ideas. Have a great day everyone!

    Humminbird
     
  8. Michael W. Smith

    Michael W. Smith Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to hear of your troubles. Since you can't seem to get anywhere, it may be time to look "outside" of the box. Since we are into warmer weather, is it possible to put your things in a low cost storage area and live in a tent on a friends/relative's property for the summer? Your $500.00/month rent will quickly add up to $1500.00 by the end of September. I know this sounds drastic, but drastic measures are sometimes needed to get ahead.

    Good luck.
     
  9. Jagger, Did one of your previous posts mention you have a travel trailer? Is there a KOA near by, or any other camp ground for that matter, that will be ok to stay while you work, save up money and find a new place? You mentioned once before that you worked at a "living farm"? Could you try for one of those again, or would you prefer to stay in food service? We just went to Lincoln State park in ILL and they have one. The lady said she has lived there, in season,. for the last 7 years. Have you tried marketing your "basic country skills" to museums, library programs, school groups and the like? Have you looked into caretaking and campground host jobs? It won't be your own land but will give you some time to collect money and get out of the city for a while. Hope to give you some ideas...I know what you mean about wanting to get out of the city, especially with a family in tow. Take a deep breath, spend some time in prayer and clear your mind to see what opportunities lay before you. Be open to changing your original plan. Most of all, don't let stress be a factor in your decisions. Its like going grocery shopping when you haven't ate in a couple days. When you get home you will have spent way too much on stuff you wouldn't eat if you weren't so hungry.
    :)

    -------Almostthere
     
  10. Zack

    Zack Well-Known Member

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    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2003
    Location:
    Tx / Ms zone 8A
    Sounds like you need to worry about upping your income rather than finding a couple of acres, so you can provide for those who depend on you. Put your idealist dreams behind you for the moment and deal with the problems at hand, don’t be Afraid or to proud to ask for assistance from friends and family when it is needed.
    Being a man means putting your family first, if you work hard you can make them happy anywhere so why not move your couple acre goal down the road a bit, say 5 years and work during that time to improve your self and your employment situation so that goal may be obtainable.
    I apologize if that sounds harsh but I have had to live apart from my dear wife and children for a year now so we can live in the country, that is the sacrifice we make for our goal. Not to mention it has taken us 20 hard years just to get to this point.

    Personally I would go with the 500.00 a month dump with the best owner and work my tail off to clean it up, But that’s me.
     
  11. Jagger,

    It seems to me that you and your wife aren't at all totally in agreement about roughing it. It's very hard, as a wife, to want to live for longer than a week or two at a time just 'making do' with cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, etc. Add a pregnancy to that, and you have problems. No matter how much we like to relive the past, we know what present day conviences are and appreciate them. It's better to just be able to escape back to the past ocassionally and enjoy it when we do.

    Personally, I think you would do well as a writer----maybe a writer of short stories.

    Don't you have low income or HUD housing in your area? There would be nothing wrong with checking into that.
     
  12. chickflick

    chickflick Well-Known Member

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    Oct 20, 2003
    Location:
    Texas
    Jagger.. check your PM's.. I may have an opportunity in Texas for you.
     
  13. heelpin

    heelpin Well-Known Member

    Messages:
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    Nov 18, 2003
    Location:
    Mississippi
    Jagger, take a look at this, #1504 looks good, http://www.davidson-real-estate.com/HTMLDOC/1TO10.ASP

    Check with any state agencies that might be able to help you, look for forclosures, check any farm market bulletins available in you state. I took up the payments with FHA in 1977 on a place with nothing down 30 years at 5%, the cost of the land was about 270.00 an acre (266 acres) and they were glad to unload it. Don't get down on yourself now, there is always help available to someone who is willing to help themselves, you can make it work, keep that thought in your head and let it be a driving force.
     
  14. Jagger

    Jagger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    61
    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Location:
    Ohio...but not for long
    I have read your suggestions, and i agree with some of you. I actually am starting to think my wife and son would proably be better off without me, loser that i am. I have tried and tried to come out of this money struggle to no avail. We have moved, moved again and then moved again. Always searching for a better job, a higher paying job. No luck thus far. I am not happy here in my current circumstances. I WILL NOT stay in a town, i cannot. Its hard for me to explain, but i am a woodsman, a dreamer and a seeker. I need to be in the woods. Always trying to see whats over the next ridge, behind the next tree. I am not cut out for this lifestyle we call civilization. I am a wanderer. As i type this another set of sirens scream by. My soul is dying, i am dying. I cant eat, cant sleep, i feel all sick inside. I may be smiling on the outside but im crying, screaming out on the inside. I hate the thought of leaving my wife and son and unborn child. I think they might be better off letting someone else take care of them..........i am lost

    I often wonder why i am even here. Whats the point. To be a slave. I have no freedom. I have no friends or family to rely on or to get help from, even if i did i would not accept it. Maybe i should just pack my backpack, grab a rifle and head off for who knows where. It may just be better to escape..to leave.... Maybe i was meant to be alone. It always seemed that way before. It does not matter what i try to do in life, i always fail. Be it love,money, or whatever i am a failure. I am a loser. I am 30 years old an have not found a niche to fit into. I am a worthless, self-loathing buffoon. I deserve what i get, i reckon. I do not belong in this world....it would be better off withou me..........the hell with it

    Jagger
     
  15. heelpin

    heelpin Well-Known Member

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    Nov 18, 2003
    Location:
    Mississippi
    Jagger, the person who suggested that you become a writer is not joking, you are one hell of a writer, how much education do you have? I assume that you are not a college grad and to be able to use words the way you do is a gift and not many people have it.
    I'm thinking now you could be suffering from depression and it could be more than just the circumstances you find yourself in. Did you have some beer last night? I used to be a beer hog and I remember the depression I felt after a night of drinking, what a nightmare that was, I was lucky to live through it. I have learned in the last 20 years that this body God gave us is not to be taken for granted and we must make every effort to stay within his natural laws or we will get into serious trouble. Do you eat a lot of sugar? I know personally how hypoglycemia can affect the thinking, stay away from sugar and junk food.
    Take it from somebody who has been rode hard and put up wet, you can make things happen for you in a postive way, set your mind to it, if you think you can't do it YOU ARE RIGHT, if you think you can do it YOU ARE RIGHT.
     
  16. Jena

    Jena Well-Known Member

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    Aug 13, 2003
    you are pretty young, right?

    what you are suffering from is called a false sense of entitlement. nothing to be ashamed of, ir's a common problem in this society. you want what you want so bad, you start to think you are entitled to it, or that you have somehow been wronged because you don't have it. resentment grows, to be replaced by depression, then next thing you know, you've wasted your whole life feeling sorry for yourself.

    you will not die in a town. yeah, it sounds poetic and might be one way to attempt to express the feelings you have, but time for a reality check. you will not die from living in town.

    getting stuff...any stuff takes time, a plan and constructive work. notice i didn't say hard work. you can work really hard, but if you are not applying your efforts in a constructive way....it doesn't mean a thing.

    your posts sound like you are working really hard on depression, self-pity and anger. those things take lots of energy to maintain....that is wasted energy! you need to climb out of the emotional pit you have dug for yourself and get a more realistic view on life and how to get what you want. go to a therapist if necessary, but your current mindset isn't doing a darn bit of good towards acheivng your goals, is it?

    have you considered going back to school to improve your employability? it is true that immediate gratification will not come with this, but in the end you just may get what you want. better income to save for your dream.

    i don't know about anyone else, but it took a long time for me to get to where i am. no one handed me an opportunity, i had to go out and FIND/CREATE my own opportunities. i had to go back and improve my employability. i had to do some major re=structuring of my thinking and learn how to deal with life, on life's terms....not trying to dictate my terms on an uncooperative world...it just doesn't work.

    good luck

    jena
     
  17. Ohiosteve

    Ohiosteve Well-Known Member

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    Dec 26, 2003
    Location:
    Ohio
    Jagger,
    I think that much of what Heelpin says may be correct. Depression is an insidious disease that will put a stop to everything until you deal with it. Try to
    put your situation into perspective by considering what you have instead of what you do not have. You have a wife, a child w/another on the way. You have a job, your youth and your health. Millions if not billions of people on this earth would trade places with you in a heartbeat.
    I am somewhat familiar with the area where you live. My wife grew up in Hocking Co. just below Logan. I have spent a lot of time there. I think it is a good place to pursue what you desire. Beg, borrow or buy some reliable wheels
    and search Hocking and Vinton Counties for a suitable homestead. This is a reasonable commute to Lancaster. Many of my wife's uncles commuted from below Logan to Columbus, which as you know is a lot farther. Unless things have changed drastically in recent years there always seemed to be small farms for sale in that area. Once you have found what you like finance it with a mortgage. Yea, I know no one wants to undertake debt but if that is what you want then that is what it is going to take. I hope this does not sound too condescending but I see a little of myself in your situation. 25 years ago I took the plunge and now I have a very nice place that is nearly paid for.
     
  18. mousecat33

    mousecat33 Well-Known Member

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    Jan 9, 2004
    Location:
    TX
    Ever thought about E. Texas? Cheap land, low paying jobs(unless you commute), Good rainfall average, Bad Storms ( bumpy night last night ), mild winters (grow most things year round)......

    Anyhow, I'm sure alot of people here have already been where you are now.

    I'm only 33 so I can't offer any wisdom yet, but you're gonna look back at all this with a certain fondness....sounds odd....

    Keep a journal, keep notes, maybe write a book about the pain and suffering of the modern city and the quest for a more meaningful/spiritual living :yeeha:
    Might help keep the demons away. Go catch and eat some fish, always helps me feel better.

    You are not the only one having a rough time in this modern world.
    Stay in touch with your inner vision and pray to the creator.
    I will be praying as well.

    regards from Western East Texas

    mc
     
  19. Terri

    Terri Singletree & Weight Loss & Permaculture Moderator Staff Member Supporter

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    Location:
    Kansas
    Look at this realtor. He has 29 wooded acres for $19,000, alonf the Ohio/West Virginia border. The same realtor has other enticing properties, as well! ;)

    www.adrian-properties.com/search_properties.htm

    I lost out on a wonderful property 2 years ago, and I was angry and upset for a long time. It happens. I didn't REALLY start feeling optimistic about my dreams until I got a better property last summer.

    Looking back, it was a GOOD thing that I lost the 5 acres with a spring-fed pond. The 5.5 acres I now have with a creek is just plain better. But, it was awfull hard at the time.

    By the way, most people in their 20's that I have known have just been trying to keep their noses above water. Things don't usually start getting better until people are in their 30's and have some life skills under their belts. Sure, we would all like to hit the ground running, but it usually doesn't work out that way.

    On the GOOD side, as a person in his 30's, you have a job history, a credit history (and it doesn't have to be perfect), life skills, and a family. You are now pretty well ready to be able to take advantage of the opportunities that you had to pass up while younger. I have known many 30 year olds who only WISH they have done as well!

    Go ahead and grieve for the property you did not get. You are entitled.

    Take off this weekend, if you can, and spend some time in the country. You are on edge and need to unwind.

    Then, when you are ready, hit the net, check out United Country, and call real estate offices in the backwoods are of your home. Looks like there should be some in your area. Heck, if you can find land close enough, you might not even have to change jobs. With a baby coming on, a regular paycheck and a little insurance right now would be a very fine thing.:)
     
  20. januaries

    januaries Well-Known Member

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    Sep 12, 2003
    Jagger,

    You've had some good advice when it comes to ways to deal with your material problems: places to live, work to do, opportunities in different places. These people know more than I about those kinds of things... Listen to them. You seem to have some internal problem, however, that are quite different from your external situation. It's easy to tell someone to suck it up and quit being depressed, but I know from experience that it's very difficult to do. Like telling a drowning man to quit flailing and start swimming--excellent advice, but possibly a little simplistic.

    First, shut off that tape player that you've got running in your head. It's lying to you. Take control of your thoughts. You may feel like your wife and child would be better off without you, but feelings don't equal fact. It's fine to acknowledge these feelings, but it's dangerous to let them permeate your thoughts.

    We all talk to ourselves, either with or without words. To a large extent, this self-talk determines how we view situations. I find that I unknowingly set a recording playing inside my head that says things like, "It's terrible to fail. Everything will be ruined if I mess this up. I'm so incompetent and weak. I need people to help me. I can't be happy unless such-and-such happens..." and so on. These are lies.

    You have a similar tape running in your head. It's saying, "I am a failure. I am a loser. No matter what I do, I fail at it. I'm worthless and this world is better off without me. My wife is better off without me." Bull****! Those are lies from the pit of hell. Shut off that infernal, blasted recording! It takes some severe self-control, but you can do it. Speak out loud to yourself, if you have to. Yell if you have to. But don't let yourself listen to those lies. You are married and have a baby on the way... I'm 30 and that alone is more than I've accomplished!

    Second, talk to your wife. Go to her for comfort. Ask her to remind you why she loves you, because you're hating yourself. Share your soul with her. Be vulnerable. Let her care for you in a hundred tender ways. Don't use this time to look for a solution or figure things out--just let youself be loved by her. You two are in this together. Together, you will make it through.

    Third, break it down into bite-size portions. In one thread, you've raised most of the existential questions of life (Why are we here? What is the meaning of it all? Is my life of any value?) as well as the physical, practical questions (Where can I live? How do I provide for my family? How do I find a good job?). No wonder you're feeling overwhelmed and depressed! I feel the same way when I allow myself to drown in the questions. It's like when you start to learn a foreign language, and you hear a native speaker conversing fluently--you think to yourself, "I'll never be able to speak like that! I'll never have that perfect accent. I'll never be able to understand the implications of a specific word choice or voice inflection..." and suddenly you've lost all motivation to study because you feel beaten before you begin. The truth is, you are beaten if all you do is listen to others and consider how poorly you speak. If you are ever going to be fluent, you must break things down and be content to learn slowly. You must have patience with yourself. You must forgive your mistakes. You must learn nouns, and verb tenses, and the intricacies of prepositions. And you must continue speaking with your own halting tongue until it slowly learns a new rhythm and cadence. In the same way, you cannot answer all the life-questions at once. You must break them down into pieces that you can conquor. If you cannot conquor 10 nouns at once--work on 3. If you cannot find your ideal job, work on finding a decent job. If you cannot provide for your family for the next six months, provide for them for the next three days... and then the next three days... and then the next.

    You'd be surprised at what a soul can withstand. It feels like it's dying, but souls are amazing when it comes to hanging on through pain and emptiness. I know--I've been there. Other people on this board know because they've been there too. We're not giving you empty promises: You can make it through this if you want to.

    It's not a bad idea to consider talking to a counselor or someone who can help you find perspective. Think of it like this: There are thousands of trees in a forest. We can see our way to walk through the forest because we have perspective: we can tell which trees are close and which are distant, which are big and which are small. We still have to dodge the trees, but we can see to navigate because of perspective. If you lose your perspective, all the trees rise up and overwhelm you. Without perspective, they are all the same size, and in the same location. Thousands of trees here, now! You feel surrounded and lost and cannot find your way through. It happens to most of us at one time or another, and it can be a terrible feeling. But just because you can't see the way doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Regaining perspective can help you see to distinguish a path--or to blaze a trail yourself.

    Jagger, my prayers are with you. PM me if you need to talk or vent. Take care.