[tjtaylor]

I know some plants, that are able to adapt to those conditions, can grow in shallow soil.

My point was that when a person is new to the land where they want to grow crops, they need to take the time to learn what the soil is like and find out what will grow in what they have. You can't just plop an apple tree down in shallow soil and expect it to produce apples for the next 20 years.

There are very few plants, if any, that tolerate ALL soil conditions in ALL locations. One has to do their research if one wants to grow a successful garden or orchard.

Absolutely, one of the biggest mistakes I have seen from people is to think that living off the land will be like shopping at the grocery store where they eat the same dam four items day in and day out year round , if your not fixable in what you eat prepare to go hungry .

 

[st0n3]

There are several good ways to keep dear out of even cleared land like a garden with very inexpensive electric fence you'd think they would jump.

I was attempting to share my personal experience...

If you would like to discuss what you did that produced good results... I'm sure that we'd all like to hear about it...

We all have access to the descriptions of other solutions... But that isn't the same thing as a discussion of personal experiences and lessons learned.

I live in the same area as danielkleach.

 

[danielkleach]

Putting in ponds may get The @#$% Feds involved in you life. Try to stay under the radar

Could you explain this more? I was under the impression that ponds aren't really something that involves government unless they are very large or if you are working with them under some type of program where they help with the dig cost for preservation or whatever. I definitely won't be digging it out myself (mainly because I don't know what I am doing, but also because I don't have the equipment). I would be hiring a company to survey the spot and dig it, while making sure everything is done within the rules.

 

[danielkleach]

Here's what I would recommend to get started on a garden, Model 722 - BCS America You could add the front end sickle mower for it to clip the tall grasses between the pine tree rows for biomass mulch and fertility--as well as till the composted mass into the soil. In time, you will be able to just lay the mulch onto the top without tilling. For now, though you'll have to buy some commercial fertilizer and probably lime to counteract the acidity. I hope you can resist the temptation to buy a shiny new Kubota or John Deere with a front end loader and lots of other goodies. IH 350 utility, Oliver 55 0r 550 utility, Allis-Chalmers D-15, with some 3-point attachments would suffice. You'll need capital for tools, fences, outbuildings, too. Get acquainted with Facebook Marketplace and Craigslist.

Thanks for the suggestion. I am going into this with very little knowledge regarding farming/gardening equipment, outside of basic tools. I actually was planning to purchase a Kubota in the near future, once I figured out what size and attachments I needed. Other than the high cost, is there another reason why I shouldn't go that route? I just figured having the ability to do most of the labor myself, rather than hire it out, would recoup much of the cost over the next 5-10 years.

 

[danielkleach]

So... in the clay? the sand?

Looks like gorgeous space...

My current place in the sand requires the use of liners when I put in a garden pool... but at my previous place, also 8a Georgia I was able to dig out seep springs for nice pools...

EDIT:
Re clearing brush to install new fencing...
Don't do it!
I run my deer fencing through the thickest tangles of scrub that I have. The deer aren't able to jump the fence through the thicket... Clear everything... makes it easy for them to jump.

Thanks for the tip about the fencing. I hadn't really thought about deer jumping it haha.

As far as the soil goes... based on what the soil map I linked shows, my soil seems to be a good mix in the majority of the acreage. The only part that seems to have poor drainage is the Grady Rembert association area. If the soil map is correct, there should be lots of clay in that spot, which would be perfect for the pond.

There does seem to be a small creek running through the property, diagonally, as well.

 

[danielkleach]

Plant an orchard ASAP. Check with neighbors on which varieties do best in your area. Take into account the micro climate in the area you are going to put the orchard. Only plant varieties that you like to eat. It's a bummer to find out 5 years later that you don't like the apples.

Clear the garden of all brush and weeds. Plants won't prosper in anemic soil. You just won't get a very good harvest. Have the soil tested and amend it accordingly. Find a neighbor that raises cows and buy a truck load or two of manure. Clean out a pond and spread the loon poop on the garden. Build a fence to keep the critters out. Bury 3 feet of welded wire fence to stop the gophers and other critters that try to burrow under the fence. Make it high enough to keep deer out. Put on electric fence around the lower part to keep the bears and hogs out. Run a solar fence charger.

We do plan to add onto the existing "orchard" the previous owner left behind. Just trying to figure out the best placement currently. And yes, we will definitely be sticking to the varieties we know we like, at least in the beginning.

What type of fencing would you suggest for around the garden/orchard areas vs. around the property itself? Would definitely like to not spend our whole budget on the fencing, but also not go too cheap to the detriment of wildlife destroying it, or it being ineffective.

Do you have a certain brand/type of electric fencing that you suggest?

 

[Danaus29]

Could you explain this more? I was under the impression that ponds aren't really something that involves government unless they are very large or if you are working with them under some type of program where they help with the dig cost for preservation or whatever. I definitely won't be digging it out myself (mainly because I don't know what I am doing, but also because I don't have the equipment). I would be hiring a company to survey the spot and dig it, while making sure everything is done within the rules.

You will need to contact your state and county zoning and building regulation departments and the Corps of Engineers.

"The best means for constructing a pond is through the Corps of Engineers agricultural-exemption program. The Corps of Engineers administers the permit process, and USDA-NRCS provides agricultural expertise. The Corps of Engineers and USDA-NRCS follow an agency agreement to review and approve agricultural-exempt ponds. Here you are getting the permit based on your agricultural needs for irrigation. This water justification can be for livestock grazing or crops. There is a detailed formula we won’t go into, but you are allowed to store a volume of water based on how many acres of crops you need to irrigate. We get our engineers involved in the NRCS paperwork. Once NRCS concurs with the water budget, then calculations are submitted along with NRCS paperwork to the regional Corps of Engineers office. The process may take a while, but when done correctly, it will be approved."

Build Your Dream Pond – Georgia Outdoor News

gon.com

Just one of many sites about "pond construction in Georgia". Most of my hits were pdf downloads.

If permits are required, no legitimate construction company will touch it without them.

 

[danielkleach]

You will need to contact your state and county zoning and building regulation departments and the Corps of Engineers.

"The best means for constructing a pond is through the Corps of Engineers agricultural-exemption program. The Corps of Engineers administers the permit process, and USDA-NRCS provides agricultural expertise. The Corps of Engineers and USDA-NRCS follow an agency agreement to review and approve agricultural-exempt ponds. Here you are getting the permit based on your agricultural needs for irrigation. This water justification can be for livestock grazing or crops. There is a detailed formula we won’t go into, but you are allowed to store a volume of water based on how many acres of crops you need to irrigate. We get our engineers involved in the NRCS paperwork. Once NRCS concurs with the water budget, then calculations are submitted along with NRCS paperwork to the regional Corps of Engineers office. The process may take a while, but when done correctly, it will be approved."

Build Your Dream Pond – Georgia Outdoor News

gon.com

Just one of many sites about "pond construction in Georgia". Most of my hits were pdf downloads.

If permits are required, no legitimate construction company will touch it without them.

Thanks for the info! Yeah, I figured I would need planning, approval, and permits. I was just confused why Doc said "Putting in ponds may get The @#$% Feds involved in you life. Try to stay under the radar". It seemed like there might have been something I was missing based on his comment.

 

[coolrunnin]

Thanks for the info! Yeah, I figured I would need planning, approval, and permits. I was just confused why Doc said "Putting in ponds may get The @#$% Feds involved in you life. Try to stay under the radar". It seemed like there might have been something I was missing based on his comment.

The EPA sometimes has a problem defining what a navigatable body of water is, as well as wetlands designations.

 

[Danaus29]

The EPA sometimes has a problem defining what a navigatable body of water is, as well as wetlands designations.

The EPA doesn't have a problem defining them. If it's on the property of an individual or small farm family it falls under their jurisdiction. If it's on the property belonging to a big company or influential individual it isn't their concern.

 

[tjtaylor]

You will need to contact your state and county zoning and building regulation departments and the Corps of Engineers.

"The best means for constructing a pond is through the Corps of Engineers agricultural-exemption program. The Corps of Engineers administers the permit process, and USDA-NRCS provides agricultural expertise. The Corps of Engineers and USDA-NRCS follow an agency agreement to review and approve agricultural-exempt ponds. Here you are getting the permit based on your agricultural needs for irrigation. This water justification can be for livestock grazing or crops. There is a detailed formula we won’t go into, but you are allowed to store a volume of water based on how many acres of crops you need to irrigate. We get our engineers involved in the NRCS paperwork. Once NRCS concurs with the water budget, then calculations are submitted along with NRCS paperwork to the regional Corps of Engineers office. The process may take a while, but when done correctly, it will be approved."

Build Your Dream Pond – Georgia Outdoor News

gon.com

Just one of many sites about "pond construction in Georgia". Most of my hits were pdf downloads.

If permits are required, no legitimate construction company will touch it without them.

The biggest legal complication in pond building actually comes from the federal government lately; even if you comply with state laws, the feds can get you and have been hitting people with some crazy suits and have even jailed people. The simple language is that you can not interfere with navigatable water ways, they have taken this wording and like governments can gone way way to far. You can google info I know there was a Montana racnher that got jailed over it etc.

 

[Danaus29]

If you are talking about Joseph David Robertson, he was blocking and destroying public lands. Most of the stories claim he dug ditches on his land but these 2 say they were large ponds dug on public lands.

Re: United States of America v. Joseph David Robertson

Antigovernment Pond Builder in Montana Sentenced to Prison

Antigovernment activist sentenced to 18 months in prison for building illegal ponds on public lands. Already, the movement inspired by Nevada cattle rancher Cliven Bundy is sounding alarm.

www.splcenter.org

Cliven Bundy allowed his cattle to illegally graze on public land.

Justice — beginning with Cliven Bundy – The Nevada Independent

Bundy has promised the Biden administration a reprise of the 2014 standoff if they try to take his trespassing cows again — or enforce the penalties that the courts have ordered him to pay. So what should the Biden administration do about this?

thenevadaindependent.com

David Allen Phillips went beyond what his permit allowed and caused a stream to run dry. That stream was vital to the people downstream from Phillips's property.

'This was a scary-looking property. He dug everything up'

Convicted in 2001 for destroying wetlands and diverting a creek, Montana developer David Allen Phillips escaped from prison and spent four years on the lam.

www.eenews.net

 

[Pony]

I definitely understand why that would be a good thing to do, but the whole reasoning behind us moving to the country was to start providing some of our own food ASAP. We seen the way the world is going with the shortages and countries starting to feed the kids bugs in schools and wanted to get ahead of it. Even if we are only growing 5% of what we consume, it's a start.

While nobody truly knows how things will end up in the next few years or even months (WEF), nothing is more important to me than my family and providing for them as best I can. I am willing to go through placement struggles and a bit of wasted money, if necessary.

From what you originally said, it seems as though you have very little experience in gardening and animal husbandry at this point. If you jump in the deep end of the pond with both feet, you may well be setting yourself up for failure.

I'm sure most of us understand your sense of urgency. Still, it is better to start with a small garden while you stock up with already canned goods from all these or some store like that, to give yourself time to learn.

Gardening is a skill that has to be developed. A few pepper plants, while quite gratifying, are not the same as a full-fledged Garden that will supply all your needs.

But, as @Danaus29 said, you do you.

I'm a bit confused as to why you would ask for advice from seasoned homesteaders, only to tell us that we're wrong.

 

[danielkleach]

From what you originally said, it seems as though you have very little experience in gardening and animal husbandry at this point. If you jump in the deep end of the pond with both feet, you may well be setting yourself up for failure.

I'm sure most of us understand your sense of urgency. Still, it is better to start with a small garden while you stock up with already canned goods from all these or some store like that, to give yourself time to learn.

Gardening is a skill that has to be developed. A few pepper plants, while quite gratifying, are not the same as a full-fledged Garden that will supply all your needs.

But, as @Danaus29 said, you do you.

I'm a bit confused as to why you would ask for advice from seasoned homesteaders, only to tell us that we're wrong.

I respectfully responded to what Danaus said, by stating my reasoning behind moving to the country and wanting to get started ASAP. I wasn't attacking or telling anyone they are wrong. I just made clear my intentions, and I respect the input everyone here has given me, including Danaus and yourself. I apologize if what I said felt like I was saying anyone was wrong.

Like I said, I do understand what you guys are saying about waiting and I even agree you are correct about going slow and planning things out. It is important to see how the property reacts to seasons and weather, do soil tests and amending where needed, install proper fencing, etc.

I just want to get started on as much as I can reasonably do in the first year, and was looking for advice on how to go about it. I do have very very limited gardening and husbandry experience, but I am willing to learn. I am also willing to fail and try again for a better outcome in the next season. I will be supplementing heavily with canned/frozen foods in the meantime.

 

[Nimrod]

We do plan to add onto the existing "orchard" the previous owner left behind. Just trying to figure out the best placement currently. And yes, we will definitely be sticking to the varieties we know we like, at least in the beginning.

What type of fencing would you suggest for around the garden/orchard areas vs. around the property itself? Would definitely like to not spend our whole budget on the fencing, but also not go too cheap to the detriment of wildlife destroying it, or it being ineffective.

Do you have a certain brand/type of electric fencing that you suggest?

I am developing an off grid 40 acre piece of raw land. I put in 5 apple trees that I grew from seeds, 3 plum trees that were sprouts in my neighbor's plumb orchard, and 2 black walnut trees that were sprouts in a different neighbor's orchard. At first I staked a 2 foot high, 12 inch diameter cylinder of hardware cloth around each small tree. As they outgrew the hardware cloth, I pounded in 3 T posts around each tree on about a 3 foot diameter circle and attached recycled woven wire fence to them. The fence is high enough that the deer can't lean over the top to nibble on the trees. The apple trees are Antonovka apples that are one of the few that breed true from seed. The plan is to graft varieties onto the Antonovka apples like Honeycrisp and Harroldson. So far my orchard has cost me $5 for Antonovka seeds off Ebay and a bit for hardware cloth.

I have put in a small temporary 6 X12 foot garden with 12 foot high fencing. The bottom 4 feet is welded wire rabbit fence (bottom 2 feet are fairly fine mesh so small critters can't get through). The rest of the fence is nylon deer netting. I mostly just grow tomatoes. So far the deer have not gotten in and the bears aren't interested. No feral hogs here yet. I will go with electric fence if necessary.

 

[Danaus29]

@danielkleach, I've seen so many people try to grow huge gardens that they have no time or energy to care for. I've done it myself. When you can't keep up with the planting, weeding, harvest and preserving you will get discouraged. When a poorly placed tree fails to thrive or gets blown over by the wind before you get a harvest you get discouraged.

There are many ways to get yourself prepared without trying to plant a whole orchard or huge garden immediately.

1) Learn to cook from scratch. Make pie crust, make cookies or cake without a mix. Experiment with seasonings and spices to give your home cooking something extra tasty so you prefer it over fast food.

2) Set up a pantry for canned goods and dry foods. Be sure to research ways to keep bugs out of beans, rice and flour. You might not be able to grow enough of those foods to satisfy your needs but you can buy them and store them for future use.

3) Learn how to preserve food. Canning is pretty easy once you learn the method. Dehydrating works great for some foods and many herbs. Find ways to preserve foods so they don't need to be refrigerated or frozen.

4) Take notice of foods you like. Learn the cultivation requirements of those plants. Try new fruits and vegetables from the grocery store to see if you like them before you buy the plants. Asparagus is easy to grow but it's not worth the effort if no one wants to eat it.

5) Try growing some plants in containers. Some things will grow better in containers than in your native soil. I can never get good peppers from my garden. Potted peppers do very well for me.

6) Get a seed starting area set up. It's often easier to set out plants than tiny seeds. Make sure you have enough lighting for your little plants. Insufficient lighting produces weak plants that won't survive outdoors. Learn how to introduce indoor grown seedlings to the outdoors, a process called "hardening off".

7) Tools are your second most important investment. Buy good, sturdy tools that will last many years. Some of my tools have been in use for over 100 years. Learn how to store and care for your tools. Good tools quickly become worthless if not cared for. A potting bench is essential if you start a lot of plants from seed. You should also learn simple maintenance of your power tools.

8) Learn your seasons. When is your typical first and last frost? Do you have a season where it rains every day? Do you have a season where you get no rain and you have to water plants? Is there a time when mosquitoes and ticks are more active than other times? Is there a season where slugs, snails, crickets or other little critters are most active in your area?

9) Learn how to inventory and rotate your supplies. Learn how to keep your pantry stocked. Learn to constantly compare prices and watch for sales of things you can't grow. Learn how to shop for produce that is in season. Learn where the local farmer's markets are located.

Take notes, copy recipes, make a record of things that work and things that don't. Make a master list of what to plant and when to plant it specific to your location. Learn how to rotate crops and keep a record if what you planted and where you planted it. Learn what varieties of vegetables your family likes and what they don't.

All of this process takes TIME and patience. Even if you are not growing all your own food within a couple years, you will be ahead of most people if you have enough food to get by for 3 months. Buying food from the grocery store does not make you a failure, it makes you prepared.

 

[Danaus29]

After reading about that cold spell in Texas last year, I would get some warm blankets to have on hand too. They won't help in the garden but will keep you warm if the weather turns cold and the power goes out.

 

[geo in mi]

Microsoft Word - farmpond_exemptionguide5_08.doc (army.mil)

This is just a bit more info that you can get by Googling: Georgia farm ponds, to tuck away in your info library.

geo

 

[geo in mi]

"Thanks for the suggestion. I am going into this with very little knowledge regarding farming/gardening equipment, outside of basic tools. I actually was planning to purchase a Kubota in the near future, once I figured out what size and attachments I needed. Other than the high cost, is there another reason why I shouldn't go that route? I just figured having the ability to do most of the labor myself, rather than hire it out, would recoup much of the cost over the next 5-10 years." (This was as close as I can get to Kubota Orange)

High cost just doesn't pencil in. My sister bought one, she didn't tell me the price, but it had to be close to $30k. She mostly put a bush hog on it to mow the horse pasture and to take the trash cans down to the road each Wednesday. Kubota is an engineering marvel, easy to drive, and low on maintenance, but like Dad used to say, "I wouldn't have any horse on my farm, all they do is eat and s..."

Don't get me wrong or be offended, Kubota owners, I would love to have one, too, but considering all the other startup costs......

My own opinion,

geo

 

[st0n3]

I always prefer to go into projects with a minimum investment.
At my previous garden... I had an acre of raised beds... I called them raised beds... But they were more like terraces... I was on a slope...
Anyway... These were all shovel dug... no need for power equipment.

When I dug out springs... I used a shovel. I had one that was some 20 x40 feet, I swam in it, I stocked it with fish... They used to follow me around the pond when I walked around looking at the iris and water lilies.

And for fencing?
I started with chicken wire... worked fine for a starting place... unfortunately chicken wire didn't last.
I moved on to those rolls of welded wire with the 2in x 4in rectangles... that stuff seems to hold up fine... but when run across a mowed area, is easily jumped... Run another roll above the first to prevent jumping in clear areas... or... supposedly, a second fence 5 ft inside the first... haven't tried it yet...

I've seen people use electric with very poor effectiveness. The deer jump between the strands... Same as they do with barbed wire.

At this place... I'm planting stands of black walnut, osage orange, black locust, honey locust, and red mulberry... These trees all produce rot resistant wood... I'm growing my own fence posts from seed.

I've planted fruit trees, pear, loquat, apple, plum, peach... only to lose them to fire blight and various rusts... So... for me... most of these orchard trees are out.

Elderberry grows, lots of blueberry relatives like deer berry and farkleberry...

Still gardening with a shovel...

I have chickens... but free range is pretty much no-go... just so many animals that eat chicken...
I have to put wire on top of the outside runs...