Just had on a new idea that seems crazy.

Discussion in 'Alternative Energy' started by Micahn, Jul 5, 2006.

  1. Micahn

    Micahn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    390
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Location:
    Ocklawaha, Florida
    Howdy All
    I have been looking around online tonight at Alternative power stuff and came up with a crazy idea.
    I was looking at what it would take to build a wind power and hydro power system myself (You know like this site http://otherpower.com/otherpowerfront.shtml)
    Anyway I had me a idea and started doing some research on it. tell me if you think this would work.
    Now days you can get some high output alternators that put out any where from 300 amps and up. What would happen if you got yourself a DC motor that was run that 300 amp alternator that only used lets say 50 amps. The way I see it you would be building up 250 extra amp a hour with that set up. I found where I can get a 1/4 horse 12V motor that draws 21 amps. It turns at 1800 rpm and that is more then enough to run a alternator. This is not some toy motor but a industrial type one.
    Now what do you all think about that type of idea ? The way I figure it a system like that one would be adding 279 amp at 12V into the system. You could even get a bigger motor say a 1 horse one that draws 80 amps and run 2 or 3 alternators with the right type of pulley system set up. You could also jump up to a 24V motor and run at over 3000 RPM if you needed it.
    Anyway am I crazy or could a system like that make more power then it uses ?
    The way I figure it a system like that could be set up for just a few hundred. You would need more then that for things like battery bank and voltage regulators and transformers and all but I am talking about just making the extra power for the system here.
     
  2. wy_white_wolf

    wy_white_wolf Just howling at the moon

    Messages:
    6,229
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Location:
    Wyoming
    Try all you want, but the motor is not powerful enough to turn the alternator at full power. Your alternator will only be able to put out the same amount of power that the electric motor takes minus friction losses.
     

  3. Micahn

    Micahn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    390
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Location:
    Ocklawaha, Florida
    Well them 12V or 20V motors can go to to a few HP I would think they would run a alternator just fine. Why do you think they would not be able to run them full speed ? I will see if I can find how much Torque they put out and how much say a 300amp alternator needs to turn. If it is as you say it would be a torque problem but if that is not a problem then I am not seeing what is.
     
  4. Guy_Incognito

    Guy_Incognito Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    54
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Location:
    Sunny Queensland, Australia
    The problem is that you're making energy out of thin air.

    I'll give an example :

    (Now, I've used kW because it's easy to interchange electrical and mechanical power with them, but it works just the same in horsepower as well.)

    A 300 amp alternator at 12V requires at the very least 3.6kW of mechanical power to drive it. (12V x 300A = 3600W). It's actually more than that due to losses in the alternator (friction from bearings, the cooling fan, diode effeciency, etc). So, we'll say you need 3.8 kW of mechanical power in to get 300A out.

    A 12V motor putting out 3.8kW of mechanical energy needs at least 3.8 kw of electrical energy in to drive it at that power output. Not including losses due to friction, commutator and field current. So I'll say that it needs at least 4.0kW of electrical energy in to get 3.8kW of mechanical energy out.

    4.0kW at 12V is 333 amps - 33 more amps than what you get out of the alternator.

    See the problem now?


    But don't sweat it. Everyone gets one of these ideas sooner or later. It can be very hard sometimes figuring out where the loss is in some designs (eg, permanent magnet arrangements swinging back and forth forever) - but the loss is always there.
     
  5. wy_white_wolf

    wy_white_wolf Just howling at the moon

    Messages:
    6,229
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Location:
    Wyoming
    I do like thinking outside the box. Just there is no way to bring this box into reality.

    Google "first law energy" and do a little reading.

    "First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another."

    http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/BioBookEner1.html

    So in you idea you need an energy input that is at least equal to the energy you plan to get out (300amps).

    "The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." This is also commonly referred to as entropy. A watchspring-driven watch will run until the potential energy in the spring is converted, and not again until energy is reapplied to the spring to rewind it. A car that has run out of gas will not run again until you walk 10 miles to a gas station and refuel the car. Once the potential energy locked in carbohydrates is converted into kinetic energy (energy in use or motion), the organism will get no more until energy is input again. In the process of energy transfer, some energy will dissipate as heat."

    So by this you actually need more than the 300amp.


    This is a very basic explaination of the energy rules:

    http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/wcee/keep/Mod1/Rules/ThermoLaws.htm
     
  6. bob clark

    bob clark A man's man

    Messages:
    1,523
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Location:
    southern Iowa
    ( shakes head ,and finds another thread to read)
     
  7. mightybooboo

    mightybooboo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,301
    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Location:
    So Cal Mtns
    What you are proposing is a perpetual motion machine,wont work.

    BooBoo
     
  8. Ross

    Ross Moderator Staff Member Supporter

    Messages:
    13,084
    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Location:
    Ontario
    It's not going to work because the assumption is an alternator spins easily by hand and a running motor is impossible to stop with your hand. Add a 300 amp load to the alternator and you won't spin it by hand, you'd really need almost 4 hp (guessing) to spin the altenator.
     
  9. Fire-Man

    Fire-Man Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    5,398
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Hello Micahn
    I too had that same Idea back in the early 80's, but think about it-----If this was possible, we could build some cars with several alternators and motors and battery banks and close down ALL the gas stations------Cool Idea, but it just don't work or does it--In a way--Technology that the goverment might have that is top secret-----Hmmmmmmm Something to think about!!! Randy




     
  10. Dahc

    Dahc Don't Tase me, bro!?!

    Messages:
    1,358
    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2006
    Location:
    GA
    Micahn,
    You should do searches thru a few different search engines on "over unity machines" or just "over unity".
     
  11. Micahn

    Micahn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    390
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Location:
    Ocklawaha, Florida
    I see what you all are saying, However with the advances in both alternators and small electric motors this should work some day if not today.
    After I posted this last night I started trying to find out just how much force it takes to spin a alternator at what speeds. So far I have not been able to find that out.
    Lets look at a home made generator for example.
    On this site they have a 1 1/2 hp gas engine running a tractor alternator putting out 55 amps and turning at 300rpm about they say.
    Now they say if someone is going to make their own they should use a 8 to 10 hp engine as it would do better they feel. but their 1 1/2 hp one is working on for them. Here is the site link
    http://www.otherpower.com/witte.html
    Now if someone used lets say a 4 hp electric motor running at say 4150 rpm they could gear it down or up a little with pulleys and change the speed if need be. This motor would run off of 48V and pull 72 amps. Here is a link to this motor.
    http://www.emotorstore.com/productd...CatID_E_354_A_productID_E_583_A_skuID_E_30698
    Now a 4 hp motor I know will run a alternator if not 2 or 3 of them at one time as long as it is not having to dive something like most others motors would be like some sort of equipment or what ever. I almost would say that a 1 hp one would do the job but I am going bigger just to see what happens i with this idea :)
    I will spend some more time tonight trying to find just how much torque it takes to run a alternator as that would be the only thing that could hold this system up. Does anyone know of any sites that talk about this sort of thing ?
    If a motor like that one could drive say 3 300amp alternators then this system would be one nice deal for anyone wanting to invest in it.

    To bad that I can not buy the stuff and try it out right now or I would. Hopefully some day I will be able to work on this idea in real life instead of just messing with the idea like this. Add in the fact that they are making advances in technology every day and some day a idea like this will go from ideas to a working system :)
     
  12. Fire-Man

    Fire-Man Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    5,398
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2005
    Location:
    South Carolina
    I understand what you are saying and can see why you feel the way you do, but to turn a 300 amp alternator or a 65 amp takes doesn't take hardly any HP to do so, BUT when you put a load on it---draw 65 amps for example--it takes some HP to turn it under load. A 300 amp---mercy serious HP for it under a 300 amp draw load. You ever jumped another vehicle off--when you hook the jumper cables to the other running car----notice the motor drops down in rpm---because the draw of the alternator causes the motor to "Strain" some--more than one or two HP lost to do this. It takes alot of HP to handle a big alt. Example--I know of people in the CB Key Downs that run 8 (or more)300 amp alt to give their big amplifiers alot of AMPS when keyed down. These Guys Build 454 engines with STEEL cranks to turn these 8 Alt---For only 10 seconds at a time---and still snap the crankshafts on some of the motors. A Stock crank just can't handle the Load that the 8--300 amp Alt put on the engine when The Big Amplifiers are drawing the full 2400+ amps for only 10 seconds. Keep up your search--Its good Food For The Brain--To Study. Randy


     
  13. Guy_Incognito

    Guy_Incognito Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    54
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Location:
    Sunny Queensland, Australia
  14. Micahn

    Micahn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    390
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2005
    Location:
    Ocklawaha, Florida
    That is sort of what I was looking for as it shows how much torque is needed to spin a alternator at what speeds. Not 100% what I was looking for as them are not 12V alternators.
    Looks like it needs about 14 lbs of torque at around 3000 rpm to work right. The hp does not matter near as much as the torque. You can get a low hp engine that has high torque that can move much more then a high hp engine with low torque. Yes torque and hp does sort of work hand in hand but they also can work alone. Basically is in the moving mass that says how much torque a motor has.
    Anyway thanks for the links. I am not done with this yet as it should be able to work I just have to find the right combo of parts to make it so :)
    A low rpm high amp alternator is what would work best. for example here is a guy who made one out of wood that works well even off of a drill lol.
    http://www.otherpower.com/pmg2.html
     
  15. Guy_Incognito

    Guy_Incognito Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    54
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Location:
    Sunny Queensland, Australia
    I'll point out for future reference that power generated by a 12V 100A alternator is exactly the same as a 24V 50A alternator - all other things being generally equal, the horsepower/torque input will remain the same for both.

    I don't think you'll get very far, and you're likely to waste a lot of your money and time. But do post if you get your over-unity system going. A lot of people would like to hear about it if you do!
     
  16. Dubai Vol

    Dubai Vol Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    414
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Dude, you're trying to violate the first law of thermodynamics. You can't get something for nothing. The energy you get out can't exceed the energy you put in. Period.

    Not only that, the second law of thermodynamics says you can't even break even. Friction and such means you always have to put in MORE than you get out.

    What you're suggesting just plain won't work. No amount of "advances" in technology will make you able to violate the laws of thermodynamics. Sorry.
     
  17. wy_white_wolf

    wy_white_wolf Just howling at the moon

    Messages:
    6,229
    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2004
    Location:
    Wyoming
    Ok that produces 500 watts. Take a look at the drill it uses 120volts at about 6 amps. Thats 720 watts used to turn it. Looks like a loser to me.
     
  18. rambler

    rambler Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    8,323
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Location:
    MN
    Perpetual Motion Machine.

    Too funny.

    I'd think it was April 1st today. ;)

    --->Paul
     
  19. Jim-mi

    Jim-mi Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,883
    Joined:
    May 14, 2002
    Some thing about "There ain't no free lunches"

    Or if it sounds too good to be true than it probably is.
     
  20. ace admirer

    ace admirer Well-Known Member Supporter

    Messages:
    1,875
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2005
    that pesky first law of thermodynamics?!?!?! many a man has bumped heads against it,,,no matter how hard the head may be....the first law always wins. always will.....the good thing about beating your head against a wall? the more you do it, the better it feels when you stop.