is there a reason for goat kids to be abnormally presented during birth?

Discussion in 'Goats' started by russellsmom, Jan 17, 2005.

  1. russellsmom

    russellsmom Well-Known Member

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    I've had three goats deliver so far. Two of those had kids that were in abnormal positions. Is there something that I can do to prevent this? Is there a reason these kids are jumbled up as badly as they have been? Neither kid survived. I am not familiar with pulling kids and the mothers have never had trouble delivering before. The first kid was born head first with no legs, I was unable to find and pull the legs forward, the chest was jammed way back in the birth canal (these are pygmies and I just was not able to get my hand far enough inside). I did get the kid out, but it didn't survive the pulling. The second kid I just pulled from another doe was rear facing with one leg forward and I have no idea where that other leg was, this kid was just a tangled mass. This one died before I was able to get it out. Both those kids were just huge buck kids, I think that possibly had they been in a normal position the does might have delivered them without help, but since they weren't the does just could not push them out.
     
  2. debitaber

    debitaber Well-Known Member

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    it just happens, some times. and it seems some years more than others.
     

  3. Sondra Peterson

    Sondra Peterson Well-Known Member

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  4. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    Feeding too much grain.

    Breeding to a buck who throws too large of kids.

    Not enough exercise in the does.

    Letting the pushing progress in the labor without seeing the correct presentation. Go in before things get to be a tangled mess, do not let a head come out without the front feet right there. One leg back always means the missing leg is over the head, not to the side where you would think it would be. Put your hand on the babies face, slide you fingers down the neck, never letting go of the baby, find the shoulder bones, slip your fingers under these bones and slide them up and find the leg, much better to break a leg that you can easily repair in an infant than to pull on a head until you break the kids neck or strangle the kid and cause death.

    When you have a breach, and you can't deliver it like that in a little goat, push the butt in and find the head, pulling the kid around...if you can't find the rear legs.

    When you maneuver the kids the doe will scream, the uterus works against you pushing the kids out as you are trying to get your hand in or the goat back in. You can be aggressive without being rough, there isn't a person alive unless you are a body builder who has hands and forearms bigger than baby goats, so there is room, you just have to manipulate the kid to get the room. As you are thinking you have no room to help, remember the folks who deliver tiny dogs and kittens who only weigh ounces at birth, yet we help deliver them.

    There are some really good links to birthing problems. Including pictures of good and bad presentations. You don't have a goat mentor local that can help you? Good luck with this. Vicki
     
  5. Qvrfullmidwife

    Qvrfullmidwife Well-Known Member

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    "much better to break a leg that you can easily repair in an infant than to pull on a head until you break the kids neck or strangle the kid and cause death."

    FWIW it is the same with people babies...better to break a collarbone when shoulders are stuck rather than causing nerve damage or worse by pulling on or twisting the head or waiting while baby gets darker and darker...

    And within a few weeks you would never know that the baby had a broken clavicle...good to hear that it is the same (relatively) in goats. Maybe this wont be nearly as scary as I am afraid that i will be... :eek:
     
  6. russellsmom

    russellsmom Well-Known Member

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    Well, I may be guilty in the too much grain department. I felt the does were way too underconditioned last year after they kidded and I didn't want that to happen again so yes I did make sure they were getting more grain. I'm also thinking that the buck may also be part of the problem, I've only had him for two breeding seasons, but it seems the kids he's sired that come from a single birth are relatively big. The does that have been having multiple births are having smaller kids. I am not sure how much exercise the does need, they were sharing approximately 2 acres, but we just finished fencing in another ten acre spread for them so if exercise was an issue it won't be next year.
     
  7. Lrose

    Lrose Well-Known Member

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    Hi!
    Sometimes there is no reason for a kid being born breach{backwards} It has been our experience a doe obviously in full labour and not giving birth is in trouble. We have had breach babies move into the birth canal . When it is obvious; my husband had gone in with a disinfected hand and turned the kid and gently pulled it out . We had a doe with baby #1 breach and babies #2 and #3 normal position. We have had goats with kids in normal birth position head positioned down between front legs} that had one leg bent back . Again it was necessary to reach inside and straighten the leg. Normally our goats have no problem birthing. However if a doe has problems giving birth two years in a row we cull it and it goes for meat. Caution should always be taken to disinfect your hands before going inside any animal or she could end up with infection. Our goats are fed different than most of the people posting. We raise organic vegetables, hay and wheat. Our pasture is rich because we put tons of seaweed on it every year. Our goats eat from the pasture and garden and hay. We introduce a non- urea goat ration about two weeks before they are to give birth. This is to get them used to it before having kids. Giving birth and lactating is alot of stress on their system. Then extra feed helps them have enough nutrients in their system. They continue to have a little grain after giving birth and while nursing their young. When the kids are older the mothers only have goat ration when on the milk stand being milked.Our goats get all the vegetable trimmings fron the garden and cattlebeets, cabbage and turnips in the winter as well as hay. They also have a salt lick. Because the kids are raised on the mothers they learn to eat what the mother's eat. Deformed kids can happen also if a goat does not have enough nutrients to be healthy enough to sustain herself and grow babies. Old goats can also have deformed babies. Same principals apply to animals having babies as it does to women. Be in good physical shape, but not fat, eat a balanced diet , stay out from under stress, get exercise, drink plenty of water,get enough rest and don't have kids when you are old! This is my husbands comparison not mine.! One more thing; if you want quality kids and does that will grow into good mothers and milk animals; make sure you use a good buck; who has milk producing ancestors ; to breed with. Any kids born are half his genetics. Linda
     
  8. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    the buck may also be part of the problem, I've only had him for two breeding seasons, but it seems the kids he's sired that come from a single birth are relatively big.
    .........................................
    russelsmom, something else to try is to give Bo-se, pre breeding and prekidding to both the buck and does prebreeding and the does prekidding. It helps with ovulation. We do not want our first fresheners, or anyone for that matter to have a single kid.

    If the does are under conditioned, than increase the value of their hay or alfalfa pellets when dry. Your pygmys only need grain per kidding and while nursing kids...always spend more time improving their forage part of the diet (better grass hay, an alfalfa/grass hay or a decent grass hay with alfalfa pellets) then upping grain. Vicki
     
  9. Sondra Peterson

    Sondra Peterson Well-Known Member

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    Yes listen to Vicki and one other food for thought in helping these kids out.
    try putting your hand (fist) thru holes in a cyclone fence if you can't do it then you might think abt getting larger goats as pygmy's are notorious for hard deliveries in some and very small working area. As for putting on weight right now I have two goats that are way way to fat and they are only on alfalfa pellets and grass hay and have been all along one is a nigerian dwarf the other a mini mancha. I need to segregate these two as I think they are hogs, plus the fact that I have had trouble even getting them bred.
     
  10. russellsmom

    russellsmom Well-Known Member

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    Thanks everyone for your advice, I've really learned a lot. :)