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Enabler!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well today has been a real crappy day, no not the dobie puppy going everywhere :rolleyes:. Just alot of human nonsense and I did need to take the Dobie puppy and the two LGD puppies to the vet for shots. They have been attacked by her mom a few times for getting close to food or trying to get into one of the dog houses. Since I have never had a litter before I was told it is normal as long as there is no blood. Fine but then there was blood on her ear and now she tore her nose and the puppy needs surgery.
I have struggled with both these dogs. I got them at 8 and 5 months old from the same place. They are poorly socialized, knew no commands, never wore a collar, walked on leash and etc. But they were supposedly trained LGDs, knew their job. They seemed like good dogs when I was there but they were in their own enviroment, far different once I got them here and they realized that we are active and have people come over and such. This is fien with the male as he likes people but it never has sat well with her.
He likes people and has learned sit and come. He now wears a collar unless the female chews it off. But he chases chickens, squishes them to the ground, licks them pulls feathers and carries them around. They really do not care for this. He also chases the goat kids and licks them and he does not realize how big he is and he does hurt, but does not kill. He was doing reallly well off leash but then he discovered I had poultry and he does not come back when he gets into the chicken licking frenzy.
She has killed 8 chickens and eaten part of them, eaten four poor little Silkie chicks whole, almost killed one of my cats, and wants to kill this Dobie puppy, she charges the fence at the goats if they get too close and growls at them. She fears all humans except me. After 6 months of working with her I was allowed to pet her. She seems to like my daughter but I refuse to let her in the pen. She will not go anywhere near my husband or son and runs from them. I have tried all the training tips an LGD group suggested got a little bashed by an Anatolian one with them saying that I was not listening to their advice. I have done all that and more for the pass 8 months and htey did not understand that. Had a dog trainer here who could not get within 10 feet of her and had to listen to the "fill the bank with positives and no negatives." Sorry when you are killing my favorite little Japanese Bantam rooster I am not going to be nice!
Anyway tried her breed rescue and they won't take her, I tried sanctuaries and they won't take her. I have even emailed Dogtown and asked if a place like them was anywhere around me and they give advice like try a muzzle. Sure if she won't wear a collar I doubt I could get a muzzle on her. She will not even let me brush her. She is scared of it. It is like her brain does not work right. I have tried treats, she is not really interested. I have tried a clicker, that scares her. She has no clue that I am calling her and has no idea what I want from her. She does not know what toys are and never touches them. I hate to have to keep her penned for years to come.
She thankfully has not excaped from her pen for the past 3 weeks but that did not stop her from grabbing a chicken that got too close to the fence and pulling it through and tearing it apart.
I guess what I am getting to is that I feel like a failure in trying to get through to her and I feel like a failure in finding her a place to live. The vet gave me a tranquilizer called Ace something and if I do not chicken out, when I take her daughter for surgery tomorrow I will have her put to sleep. But I can already feel me chickening out. I picture her being all happy to see me tomorrow and I won't be able to give her the pills. I feel sick inside about this and I should have found something or did something different.
 

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I have a couple of mutts I took in that I have been on the fence about putting down and they are not as unsocialized as that dog is determined to be. It sounds as though you have done everything you can with her and tried your best to rehome her. If your family is not safe around her, I believe you are making the right decision.
 

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Wow...tough position to be in. I'm thinking that she may have a mental problem like Willows Collie had. She tried everything and nothing worked...let me see if I can find that thread...
Here it is...http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=268142
Your story really reminds me of her situation. Since you can't find a home for her the best thing you can do is put her to sleep. It's going to be really tough but you will feel better I'm sure. And she will be at peace. She sounds too dangerous for your family and lifestyle...what if she attacks someone? I'm so sorry you are going through this....more hugs :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I remember Willow's thread. But this dog is happy to see me. Let's me pet her and that took me 6 months of work. She runs from people and is not aggressive to them. If she had ever shown any type of people aggression she would have been out of her faster than she could bark.
But fear biting does cause me concern, I let no one into that pen but me. I guess that is what is making me hesitate is her attitude towards me, and her age.
Being penned to me is no life either but if she will not stop killing and runs from collars and leashes then there is not much more to do. I would have liked to find some magic thing that turned her brain on. I just feel so bad.
 

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I know you're sad and I'm sad for you.

BUT, this dog just isn't "right" in her head. She is downright dangerous.

Give her peace.
 

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sometimes it can be bad breeding, bad breeders, distemper vaccinosis or just be, You have to put the safety of your livestock and family before this dog life, if that dog had been here she would have been long gone to rainbow bridge. A dog that kills livestock and is a threat to my children isnt one thats going to live or be rehomed.

I do hope this new puppy i just got comes around better, hes 4 months and never had any attention other than to be fed, hes making progress but its sad to see him shy away every time I try to pet him.
 

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I've been reading various dog related lists for years and one thing is becoming rather apparent. The breeders of LGDs seem to think that early socializing with people isn't nessecary. I know there are good breeders out there but as I read these stories of dogs who are unsocialized it is clear that there are a lot of people in the animal world that should not be breeding or selling working dogs.

Dogs go through social stages of development which start at about 3 weeks old and basically end at about 18 months old. Those first developmental stages are critical to the success of the dog in a human world. From three weeks to about seven weeks the pups learn how to be dogs...interacting with their litter mates and their mother. From about five weeks to about sixteen weeks they learn how to deal with the rest of the world. During these times their brains are extremely receptive to specific stimulous in the envrionment. Puppies MUST get the correct socializing at these times or they stand a good chance of never being able to cope.

Dogs that are orphaned at a very early age, which causes them to loose that dog to dog socializing stage, often have abnormal responses to other dogs as adults. Dogs that do not learn what the rest of the world is like between five weeks and sixteen weeks are pretty much doomed to a life of fear every time something in their comfortable environment changes. They are trapped in a mental cage.

Breeders who leave these guardian dogs in the barn and never socialize with humans, and any other things and experiences the dog will have to deal with as an adult, are condemning that dog to failure. These unsocialized dogs will be completely normal acting in the environment they are comfortable in. The comfortable environment actually masks the incorrect socializing. But once taken out of that safe haven and forced to deal with a normal world, these dogs fall apart. They were never given the skills needed to cope during the developmental period where their brain was most receptive to learning the specific coping skill.

If you want a dog that does particular things then buying a dog for that purpose is a good start but the breeder had to begin the training....and it appears that many so called breeders of LGDs do next to nothing about providing the enrichment that the pup needs in order to be able to cope with the world. Just having a litter in a barn isn't enough. Throwing food into a stall isn't socializing. If the dog is to guard certain livestock then it must be worked with that livestock as a very young pup. It must learn that the livestock is part of it's pack, not just a part of the environment. Rasing pups for any type of work (or pet) requires a lot of work from the breeder and as I read these lists day after day, it sounds like a lot of breeders have no clue how a dog develops mentally or what type of socializing they need to be a success.

Thiablue12, it appears to me that you have a dog that was never socialized. She is now an adult and I sincerely doubt you will ever be able to fix what she is. Her brain is no longer receptive to socializing and is now more in survival mode. She isn't doing the things she does to be a bad dog. Just doing them because her breeder never gave her the coping skills needed to fit into the farm life she was bred for. Unfortunately, knowing why she is what she is isn't going to help you fix her. I truly believe that the best route for her is humane euthanasia. She is a product of a breeder who either was ignorant or just plain lazy to the needs of the puppies they produced and those pups will suffer for that. But look at it this way. You are, in a sense, setting her free. She will no longer have to suffer all the fears that go along with a lack of socializing.

One last thing. Yes, there is a genetic component to temperament however bad genetics is used as an excuse far too often. Most of the time, the dogs that behave as the dog in this thread is behaving, it is a lack of socializing during the critical developmental periods...not genetics and not vaccinations.

Willow101
 

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I've been reading various dog related lists for years and one thing is becoming rather apparent. The breeders of LGDs seem to think that early socializing with people isn't nessecary. I know there are good breeders out there but as I read these stories of dogs who are unsocialized it is clear that there are a lot of people in the animal world that should not be breeding or selling working dogs.

One last thing. Yes, there is a genetic component to temperament however bad genetics is used as an excuse far too often. Most of the time, the dogs that behave as the dog in this thread is behaving, it is a lack of socializing during the critical developmental periods...not genetics and not vaccinations.

Willow101
I agree whole heartedly! Too many LGDs have never become accustomed to people which is NOT healthy. LGDs do need training and vetting so leaving them unsocialized is often condemning them to an early death. From talking to people in our local rescue group, there IS a strong element of insanity (for lack of a better word) in some lines of LGDs. My first Pyr was such a dog and he and at least one other in his litter were put down for serious aggression problems. He would just zone out and attack for no apparent reason. We all grew to fear that spaced out look in his eyes.

Hard to say exactly what's going on with these two. It sounds like the male has potential, he just needs training. The female is another story. It is possible that there is someone out there that could help her but with the huge surplus of LGDs on the market right now, finding that person might take more time than you have. Putting it mildly, she's dangerous and you and your kids are at risk as long as she is around. Yes, it is probably one of the hardest things you will ever do, but give her that pill and take her in. She's not any happier than you are, though it might seem like it occasionally. There's a reason all these places won't take her. You HAVE tried! I'll be praying for you for the strength to do what you know in your heart is best.
 

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There was a dog at the Humane Society that was rescued from a puppy mill. He had no social skills at all. He literally vibrated with fear at the sight of a human being. He couldn't be touched without striking out.

Personally, I thought he should have been humanely euthanized. Poor thing.
 

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If nothing else, you will be relieving her of living in an almost constant state of unsureness and fear. That is no life for a noble animal or any animal for that matter. It must be so very sad to have to live in fear of everything and everyone. You will be giving her the gift of peace, probably for the first time in a long time. You have done all you can to try and give her a happy and productive life. Now take that extra step. I'll lift you up in prayer that you can be strong through this ordeal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
No she was not socialized like she should have been. She lived in a very desolate place with not much going on. In the future I will only get an animal from a busy place that has kids that haul animals around, lol. That is one good way to get puppies use to life.
I know LGDs should be close to their livestock, but you must be able to leash them and stick them in your car and take them to the vet.

There was a blip this morning that I have totally forgotten about.... she does not eat treats! I tried a balled up piece of cheese with pills, bread, a hot dog, and etc. I could not get her to eat it. I was all prepared to do this ( sort of) and now we have another issue. I think I might try some raw hamburger, or liver. She is not food motivated. I guess I could tuck the pills under a chickens feathers and toss it into the pen. I can be sure she would eat the pills then, I am kidding.

Well I have to go and pick up the puppy from her nose surgery.
Thank you all for making me feel better about my choice.
 

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eee-gads not even hot dog?! She sure does have issues. Is she not taking it from your hand...or not taking it period...like if you left it there.
 

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I am so sorry, and you have my greatest sympathy, but I will be honest, I have never been your situation and I really don't have any words of wisdom for you, just a :grouphug:.
 

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There was a blip this morning that I have totally forgotten about.... she does not eat treats! I tried a balled up piece of cheese with pills, bread, a hot dog, and etc. I could not get her to eat it. I was all prepared to do this ( sort of) and now we have another issue. I think I might try some raw hamburger, or liver. She is not food motivated. I guess I could tuck the pills under a chickens feathers and toss it into the pen. I can be sure she would eat the pills then, I am kidding.
Man, that sure doesn't help when the choice was so tough already! Liver would be a pretty good thing to try. Mine go nuts over it, even my fussy Pyr.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
No she does not understand the treat thing much either. If I toss it on the ground she sniffs at them and "might" eat them. I got her to take a treat from me a couple of months ago. But she did it with teeth and it scrapped my skin and hurt so I said "Ow" I now wish I hadn't because she never took one from me again.
I will find something that she likes to eat first before I get myself all upset and ready to try again.
The puppy did not have surgery either yesterday! There is too much missing from her nose to put it back together. If they try they might restrict her breathing so they decided to leave it alone. Back and forth yesterday over 100 miles and I got nothing done "sigh".

Here is a picture of her poor little nose. It actually is a bit worse than this but it is hard to get a good close up.

 

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owie!!! Poor baby :( that looks really sore...and such a sensitive spot
 

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Will she eat canned food from a bowl? Maybe you can mix it with the food during her regular feeding.
 
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