I have seen folks scrimp, use cheaper colleges and work to graduate with little or no debt and I have seen people with several hundred thousand dollars in debt. It generally boils down to choices. Folks can either sacrifice now or later.

 

Not one person is forced into student debt.

Remember these person going to high end schools are the brightest....surely they read what they are signing.

 

The jobs just aren't there for the degrees once they graduate.

It used to be when somebody retired or quit, a new person was hired to replace them - in this day of age with cost cutting and every company trying to increase their profits, when someone retires or quits, they are NOT replaced. The remaining people are asked to pick up the slack and do the work that their old co-worker used to do.

And there are many fields where they are pumping out many more college graduates, than what there are jobs for.
I was on the school board for 8 years and during that time I witnessed downsizing of employees. The student population was decreasing, but the same number of teachers and staff were staying constant. When the state budget cuts came and started affecting the school's money, suddenly the administration found that many of the teachers and staff who were retiring or quitting, weren't needing to be replaced (even thought the board asked repeatedly in the past "Do we need to replace this person?".
At one time, we were hiring elementary teachers. And for two or three positions, we had over 120 applicants. Some of the people we interviewed, begged for a chance to teach. Even though they had their degree, the pool of applicants was much larger than the number of jobs - so therefore these people with teaching degrees, ended up having to take ANY job they could get.
Which down the road won't help get them get a teaching job, because you see someone with a teaching degree, but they are working at Best Buy as a Sales Person.
Many people go to college, just to go to college. When they graduate, they find they are competing with their classmates for a job, as well as the graduates from the year before, and the year before.

 

I have a student loan, not a ton like some but enough, I also wouldn't have the job I do without it. Was it worth it, at first I wasn't sure, but now I say it was because of how it turned out. Of course it was a lot of work post college that has afforded me the opportunities I have been given. There's no replacement for hard work.

 

I've got a dual bachelor's degree. It was semi-required for my job...but at the same time, maybe one of the classes I took TRULY helped me.

99% of what has made me successful today has a TON more to do with experience, OJT training, etc.

 

I think if student loans weren't so easy to obtain, there would be more saving and scrimping for college. But hey, just sign your name, get the money for school, when you get out you will make big bucks and be able to pay it off. That's what they are telling themselves, anyway. And the cost of college has risen faster than the rate of inflation overall, which demonstrates that umbilical cord of free money backed by the govt. has made the schools not be as efficient as they could be.

I don't know what the answer is, maybe all that is needed is a little more scrutiny of the student's plan for the future before the loan is issued, but the whole thing seems to have blown out of proportion.

I think at this time, learning a solid trade will pay off more than a degree for a lot of people. Electricians, welders, auto techs, plumbers, HVAC, all have steady demand and you can make good money.

 

I didn't read it the same way (student debt amounts have not risen). The article acknowledged that the amount of debt is higher now, and that repayment period is longer now, but didn't tie the two together as the reason that there is no net change in the annual percentage of debt payment to income. Using % of income alone as the measuring stick, sure everything looks like an "upshot".

Tuition has gone up at a higher rate than median starting income. Risk-free lending will do that.

Eta: the author also tried to lay the problem of low graduation rates at the feet of the institution. Aside from being a real fly in the soup of their "everything is peachy" argument, it just real bogus. The choice to attend, the choice of major, the choice of institution, is all on the student. Graduation always has been and always will be the student's responsibility.

 

Cost of tuition is growing far faster than pay (if you can land a job)

Too many degrees pursued that won't pay you back (English, women's studies,music, etc)

The trades aren't a shoe-in either. Pay is way down there too due in large part to the Hispanic influx.

 

The jobs just aren't there for the degrees once they graduate.

It used to be when somebody retired or quit, a new person was hired to replace them - in this day of age with cost cutting and every company trying to increase their profits, when someone retires or quits, they are NOT replaced. The remaining people are asked to pick up the slack and do the work that their old co-worker used to do.

And there are many fields where they are pumping out many more college graduates, than what there are jobs for.
I was on the school board for 8 years and during that time I witnessed downsizing of employees. The student population was decreasing, but the same number of teachers and staff were staying constant. When the state budget cuts came and started affecting the school's money, suddenly the administration found that many of the teachers and staff who were retiring or quitting, weren't needing to be replaced (even thought the board asked repeatedly in the past "Do we need to replace this person?".
At one time, we were hiring elementary teachers. And for two or three positions, we had over 120 applicants. Some of the people we interviewed, begged for a chance to teach. Even though they had their degree, the pool of applicants was much larger than the number of jobs - so therefore these people with teaching degrees, ended up having to take ANY job they could get.
Which down the road won't help get them get a teaching job, because you see someone with a teaching degree, but they are working at Best Buy as a Sales Person.
Many people go to college, just to go to college. When they graduate, they find they are competing with their classmates for a job, as well as the graduates from the year before, and the year before.

This exactly. It sure is great to tell your kids they can be anything they want to be. I'm all for helping a kid believe in them self, but where's the reality? Didn't the housing market crash due to indiscriminate loan practices?!?! How is an education loan any different? If there's no market for the education being purchased than why lend the money?

Answer: cause debt makes indentured servants, and they must feed the machine.

 

My daughter's boyfriend went for 5 years, taking 3 classes at a time, lived on campus with one room-mate with all meals included in the deal... he borrowed $30,000 and had a stress-free time and a blast ( and this included all tuition and all books and full meal plan- 7 years ago)

My son lived at home the first two years, lived off campus in student apartments with three room-mates and a shared small kitchen and small living area and cooked his own food from budgeted groceries and went to school full time for this past 2.5 years... he borrowed $30,000+. ( student grant paid most class tuition but didn't cover books - 2012-2014)

Ok... you could statistically say that the debt hasn't really changed... but my son would have been out another $15,000+ on top of the $32,000 to live on campus with a partial meal plan for two years, not five. Would he have loved the camaraderie of living on campus with the resulting activities available - sure - it was a chore to get to campus, have few opportunities to meet others and try to join clubs that he hoped would be more of a social interaction than they were.

Both went to state colleges in their home-state. What young person doesn't want to live the college experience and be out on their own - if the classes were truly preparatory for real life work and hiring - a reasonable cost education with the college experience would be a good social experience and solid ground for maturation to thrive in a future profession...but reasonable...not...truly preparatory...unfortunately...not as well...and unless they actually know mature people in a particular profession - the choice of degree has always been a difficult one for most young people...

Fellow student graduates with library and laboratory biology majors found work in a bookstore and Walmart...[the bookstore closed and Walmart laid everyone off and re-hired them part-time] the student's career counselors strongly recommended these majors according to "interests" - more likely to fill classes for - the school's profits - the lender's profits. Telephone sales jobs in my area (call centers) are requiring recent Bachelors Degrees and good credit for employment.

Don't always believe the statistics... they are statistically designed to "prove" the presenter's agenda.

 

In the job I held the longest, there were two ways of getting there- to be hired off the street, a degree was neccessary but they also promoted people from lower classification jobs. So in 4 years, the same time frame or less these days as the acquisition of degree, both people were at the same exact place.
The stats might have given the college degree holder the edge for life time earnings, as touted by the colleges, because they had less years of work at a higher rate to get there but the worker who went up through promotion did not pay for college. Seems to me the cost of college, taken away from the lifetime earnings, makes them much closer than it appears.
A college degree may be a "requirement" only because that represents what a high school education used to represent in quality of employee, and because there are so many superfluous degrees floating around, rather than a real need for extra training. In otherwords, employers ask for it because the standards for education have dropped and because they simply can.

 

It does make a point out of the large number of students not getting a degree and still carrying student debt. It should not be neccessary, nor is it even reasonable, to have the belief that a college degree is the only way to have a productive life. Almost none of the people I know, with the exception of teachers, have a degree in the field where they are working. And many of the people I know without degrees ended up in the same jobs with people with college degreesz they just worked their way up while the college graduates stood still.

Some college employee makes self-serving statements about the neccessity of college and a million head start nodding in synchronization.

I really think this anti-education mentality is a form a sour-grapes by those not inclined to further their educations.

In my own case, my college degrees made me highly qualified to purse the career that I chose, and I am now reaping the benefits in the form of affluence. That's one reason why we could afford to purchase our homestead land, which is already paid off, as is our home.

I didn't however accumulate large amounts of student debt. Some, but that was paid off in full about two years after graduation. I did however spend significant amounts of time down on my knees scrubbing toilets, and other jobs to support my way through college. I think one of the reasons why some kids today are in such debt is because they aren't willing to do this.

Fast forward to today. We are sucessful, have payed off our land, home, and have zero credit card debt. Oh, and I'm still good at keeping our home's toilets really clean.

 

I really think this anti-education mentality is a form a sour-grapes by those not inclined to further their educations.

In my own case, my college degrees made me highly qualified to purse the career that I chose, and I am now reaping the benefits in the form of affluence. That's one reason why we could afford to purchase our homestead land, which is already paid off, as is our home.

I didn't however accumulate large amounts of student debt. Some, but that was paid off in full about two years after graduation. I did however spend significant amounts of time down on my knees scrubbing toilets, and other jobs to support my way through college. I think one of the reasons why some kids today are in such debt is because they aren't willing to do this.

Fast forward to today. We are sucessful, have payed off our land, home, and have zero credit card debt. Oh, and I'm still good at keeping our home's toilets really clean.

I did but it still doesn't change the observation that it was clearly not neccessary as I worked with people who didn't as were equally affluent.
Appropriate education is valuable- indiscriminate education is a waste. But colleges, the source of such stas, benefit by touting the education part.

 

I'm a paralegal. For what I do many people simply started in the field and learned their way up. Most employers now want to see a degree for these positions. If you want the higher paying jobs a degree or certification is required. For what my husband does a degree and experience are absolutely required. So saying you can work your way up is not all that true anymore. Requirements have changed.

 

I'm a paralegal. For what I do many people simply started in the field and learned their way up. Most employers now want to see a degree for these positions. If you want the higher paying jobs a degree or certification is required. For what my husband does a degree and experience are absolutely required. So saying you can work your way up is not all that true anymore. Requirements have changed.

But the point is not whether they have changed but rather if they need to have changed. My suggestion is that it has become a kneejerk response rather than a need. Or even that a college degree has become a substitute for in house training, which then has to take place anyway.
Let's say a business could train a person in a year but saves money by getting a person with a 4 year college degree (even if they don't have to do the in house training anyway, which still seems to be needed.)
It is not efficient to keep a child a child for 4 years for college rather than 1 year as an apprentice, unless that is the only way to get the needed knowledge. We all have bought into the idea that a college degree is productive when for many (not all) it is not. Too many end up working in fields having nothing to do with their degree . And that is the clear indication that it was not necessary.
If there were not so many people avaliable with degrees, especially ones of dubious value, business would not "require" them as they are not really useful anyway.

 

I'm a paralegal. For what I do many people simply started in the field and learned their way up. Most employers now want to see a degree for these positions. If you want the higher paying jobs a degree or certification is required. For what my husband does a degree and experience are absolutely required. So saying you can work your way up is not all that true anymore. Requirements have changed.

That's true.
But part of that is an ironic side-effect of so many people getting their degree...

It is not efficient to keep a child a child for 4 years for college rather than 1 year as an apprentice,

Wait a second...
What?? How did we make the leap that going to college keeps someone as a child??

 

For my field it is handy to have someone with an associates degree. They know where to look for the information and know the basics of pleadings/discovery. It saves employers time and they like that.

For my DH's field, well he's a forensic toxicologist. A degree is pretty required for that. It's hard to learn chemistry while you're working a mass spectrometer and be efficient and accurate.

But the point is not whether they have changed but rather if they need to have changed. My suggestion is that it has become a kneejerk response rather than a need. Or even that a college degree has become a substitute for in house training, which then has to take place anyway.
Let's say a business could train a person in a year but saves money by getting a person with a 4 year college degree (even if they don't have to do the in house training anyway, which still seems to be needed.)
It is not efficient to keep a child a child for 4 years for college rather than 1 year as an apprentice, unless that is the only way to get the needed knowledge. We all have bought into the idea that a college degree is productive when for many (not all) it is not. Too many end up working in fields having nothing to do with their degree . And that is the clear indication that it was not necessary.
If there were not so many people avaliable with degrees, especially ones of dubious value, business would not "require" them as they are not really useful anyway.

 

That's true.
But part of that is an ironic side-effect of so many people getting their degree...



Wait a second...
What?? How did we make the leap that going to college keeps someone as a child??

A child lives off the labor of others while learning to be an adult and take care of themselves. In this respect, college as done by most keeps that perod going for 4 more years. It's not neccessary to be so literal an interpretation.

 

For my field it is handy to have someone with an associates degree. They know where to look for the information and know the basics of pleadings/discovery. It saves employers time and they like that.

For my DH's field, well he's a forensic toxicologist. A degree is pretty required for that. It's hard to learn chemistry while you're working a mass spectrometer and be efficient and accurate.

Yes- my point is that too many do not need the degree. Certainly not all- I really want my medical doctor to have, well, his doctorate. I do not need the sales clerk to have a bachelor's degree.
In our area there is an ad on TV about a man, who built a successful car dealership after he left high school, and his sons taking over the business after they graduated from college. I will not be around but I wonder if his sons will actually be as successful but I would wager that had they simply stayed with him instead of college, they would be just a good.

 

Yes- my point is that too many do not need the degree. Certainly not all- I really want my medical doctor to have, well, his doctorate. I do not need the sales clerk to have a bachelor's degree.
In our area there is an ad on TV about a man, who built a successful car dealership after he left high school, and his sons taking over the business after they graduated from college. I will not be around but I wonder if his sons will actually be as successful but I would wager that had they simply stayed with him instead of college, they would be just a good.

I don't know that I agree with you. I think stupid and entitled kids are getting worthless degrees because they are stupid and entitled. Then they are surprised they aren't getting jobs.

Then you have people who look at what they are good at and how that would make them employable. They get degrees through hard work and continue that hard work into employment. They may take lower paying jobs to start but work their way into their field. My SIL has a biology degree. When she graduated she showed up at DCI and asked the boss there if she could do an unpaid internship. He told her they'd never been asked such a thing before but it sounded just fine to him. She did that for a few months and when a position opened up she got it. See, hard work and a degree did that. There were other biology graduates, but did they put in the work to get that job? Nope.

Stupid people are just stupid and lazy with our without degrees, that's my point there.

Now those kids, I bet if they got degrees in business management they'll bring new ideas and information to that dealership and it'll skyrocket. So they are actually bettering what their dad did. Course, maybe not. Who knows.

 

I went to school, and remember all the people who borrowed the max amounts on their student loans. They laughed their heads off about using those dollars to buy wardrobes, cars, spring break vacations, and to party every weekend.

All of my spring breaks centered around working everyday.

25 years later, many of those people are still complaining about their student loans, and how they are continuing to make payments.

The student loans of today are far more generous. I know a gal that started a master's degree, and she borrowed $17,500 "for living expenses." This money was spent to increase other debts...and she used $3,500 of that as a down payment on a new car. The rest was spent on the fanciest of clothes, and at the nicest nightclubs in the city.

To hear her talk, she often said "I can't make it without the loans." In truth, she should have said "I won't do without these loans."

 

A child lives off the labor of others while learning to be an adult and take care of themselves. In this respect, college as done by most keeps that perod goong for 4 more years. It's not neccessary to be so literal an interpretation.

No, I simply think you don't understand who today's average college student is and are instead clinging to a seriously outdated stereotype.

College classrooms were once filled primarily by eager students straight out of high school. But the vast majority of today's college students work, have a family, are enrolled only part time, or a combination of all three. This new breed of college student is reshaping the face of higher education in America.

NPR interview

More often than not, colleges are not peaceful havens in the woods but rather, as Zachary Karabell writes, “one- and two-story industrial concrete buildings where millions of immigrants, middle-aged women, and lower-middle-class students are trying to obtain the degree that they hope will give them that ineluctable edge in the thrivingly insecure economy of the United States today.”

Karabell (who has degrees from Columbia, Oxford, and Harvard) wrote those words in 1998.

Short article at Forbes

Twenty to 30 years ago a student might have still been a "child", but that was back in the day when you could pay most of your way through by working. Consequently, most of us "children" were carrying a full load and working either part, or even FULL, time. :shrug:

 

Now those kids, I bet if they got degrees in business management they'll bring new ideas and information to that dealership and it'll skyrocket. So they are actually bettering what their dad did. Course, maybe not. Who knows.

Well they will certainly be able to properly graph the course of their failure. But frankly it will not be likely they will actually do better- their father was a huge success.

One of the people I mentioned above who got promoted into the same position as a college degree entrant did that very thing- volunteered for his first position until he proved his capabilities.

 

No, I simply think you don't understand who today's average college student is :

Really. How enlightening of you to show that people who are living off student loans for college are really earning their way through school. And so polite as to correct my lack of understanding so pointedly.

And if the acid in this post doesn't eat through to your sensative insides, you certainly are impervious.

 

Really. How enlightening of you to show that people who are living off student loans for college are really earning their way through school. And so polite as to correct my lack of understanding so pointedly.

And if the acid in this post doesn't eat through to your sensative insides, you certainly are impervious.

I guess I don't understand the point of your snide, snarky comments but I do know that information can only be "enlightening" if one chooses to READ it. Given your response, I'll assume you didn't.

The average student today is over 27, has a family and a JOB. They are not "living off student loans" any more than they were 20 years ago. :shrug: (Where does this stuff come from, anyway? A few anecdotes do not a trend make...)