How hard can you pull?

Discussion in 'Goats' started by Bluecreekrog, Feb 13, 2005.

  1. Bluecreekrog

    Bluecreekrog Well-Known Member

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    The posts by Jas and kickingbird on helping momma give birth got me wondering how hard can you pull on a babys head without breaking their neck?
     
  2. JR05

    JR05 Well-Known Member

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    Considering I have had to pull at least 4 kids this last week I feel like an expert. Of course I hope I don't have to pull any more. You really don't pull, you are just putting pressure in a downward direction. If you can get the kids front legs out past the elbows then the rest is easier for mom. We have had 17 kids born in the last 2 weeks and sadly we lost 2 from one doe.They both were backwards and the first we think was already dead. Hope this helps.

    JR05
     

  3. kickingbird

    kickingbird Active Member

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    I lost my doe mother this morning. i'm not sure why just three days after her kidding.. i hope it had nothing to do with me pulling on the kid. i think that it is unlikely it had anything to do with her passing.

    on the question of how hard do you pull, i gently grabed the kid by the chest and head when i pulled, i pulled until it came free remember these kids are a little------ i stress------ a little limber, if the bubble has broken then do this, if not try to get the kid back in and re-adjust it, if that doesnt work try to gently reach in and firnd the kids shoulder blade follow it around and see if you can get the leg into position. if not and the bubble breaks then gently pull but try to grab the chest area as well so you don't pull the head to hard. hope this answers your question,

    kickingbird
     
  4. GoldenWood Farm

    GoldenWood Farm Legally blonde! Supporter

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    When you pull if at all...pull slightly only during the contractions! That is VERY important to remember NEVER EVER pull when she isn't having a contraction. I thankfully have yet to help a doe with her babys not to say it can't happen to me to :rolleyes: .

    I am sorry kickingbird about your doe dying...I know that you where so excited about having babys and stuff and then that happens after she kids...

    If anything instead of pulling try to guide the kid out...if they happen to have very large shoulder blades work from side to side with them...pull one leg a tiny bit during a contraction and then the other during another contraction. The shoulders are by far one of the hardest parts to pass through the cervex so thats the area where you will be having the most troubles if they do get stuck. Once you get the shoulders through the rest is a piece of cake(generally). I guess that info only really helps if the kid is correct presentation huh..oh well...

    MotherClucker
     
  5. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

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    You really have to study about correct presentation to be able to help with kiddings, and not lose the kids or the doe. Pulling on a head with the legs back, is either going to kill the kid, rip the does cervic, pull loose the uterus, burst the uterine artery or deliver the kid. Way to many bad outcomes for me to pull on a kids head with the legs back. It's one thing to come home to a bad presentation, and have to fix it, way another thing to allow your doe to push and push and push for an hour with no kid coming forward, of course you will not be able to push a kid back in to rearrange.

    You also have to remember that mortality like this, in both kids and dams is expected, the more intensively you manage your stock the less mortality you have.

    My welcome to East Texas was a bunch of yokels pulling a calf with a jeep in a field next to where I took my kids to be picked up by the bus. I went out to watch, I was flabbergasted. I walked up to the dead calf, asked whose cow it was, it belonged to none of them, they were helping save the cow. Yeah right. The calf had a front leg back, they had done nothing more than kill the cow with thier antics, and all they had to do, being the big strong men they were was to cut the head off the calf, cut the leg at the joint , and then pull the calf, instead they prolapsed the cow who was bleeding to death. I told them as another man walked up, that they had not done anything but kill another mans cow. It was the owner who walked up as I said this...the cow and calf were fed to the lions down the road. The owner and I became old friends over this incident.

    So the answer to your question is, you can pull as hard as you want, but it will kill the kid and the dam if you don't know what you are doing. Vicki
     
  6. JoyKelley

    JoyKelley Well-Known Member

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    Again, God watches over the particularly stupid, that being me....

    I have helped at many many dog births so how much different can this be.... right????? My first doe had two just fine but the neighbor was here to help as well and I stayed totally ignorant on what went on then with the second nubian cross went into labor , had two kids and stopped, 1 hour later passed a bubble ( ok so I think, odd looking for afterbirth but this must be it cause no baby )

    Another hour passes and we finally go in the house thinking she's done, and 20 minutes later blood curdling screams start,. I run out and there is a little white tail hanging out and nothing else. Thank God the vet answered the cell phone from the barn, He tells me , push it back in and grab a leg and strighten it out , I do this , he says grab the other leg , do the same , I do this and then he says pull. I do this. " Wrong way " is born with no sack ( could this be the bubble from over 2 hours ago?? ) and no umbilical cord. and is just fine. two hours later another breech but both feet were in the bubble so I just pulled and Beau is just fine. If left to my own devices, I would have tried to turn "Wrong Way" inutero for a frontal presentation and no doubt done tremendous damage to him and mama. I still wonder how it is that "Wrong Way" didn't suffocate , I have read that if the sack breaks inutero during birthing that they can suffocate before being born.

    Goats should come with instructions printed on the side.
     
  7. Bluecreekrog

    Bluecreekrog Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the information and advise, I have always heard you shouldn't pull them out, but try to work them loose and let momma do it herself. This is what scares me most about breeding goats. I doan know nothin' bout birthin no babies. lol
     
  8. caroline00

    caroline00 Well-Known Member

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    when we went into goats, we had a wonderful 4-H publication explaining birthing positions, both normal and abnormal, how to determine the position of the kid and then which ones needed intervention and which intervention was appropriate.

    We had a couple of times thru the years that we ran to get the booklet and birthed from the written instructions. I dont know if it was actually put out by 4-H or something that a leader did at one time. It was typed with line drawings and stapled together.

    Most birthings are normal. Only occasionally, does a doe need help. Everytime you put your hands in the doe, there is a chance for infection, to take normal precautions to introduce as little bacteria as possible.
     
  9. mary,tx

    mary,tx Well-Known Member Supporter

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    None of us knew anything when we started. I remember holding the book in one hand when the first couple kidded. I think it's a good idea to read up on not only what positioning is normal, but what will and will not work. Some positioning needs only a little adjusting or extra effort, others are impossible and need to be fixed. Generally speaking, once the positioning is more or less correct, pulling is not necessary. And, as others have mentioned, if you do need to pull, it should be gently with contractions. I don't think you should ever need to pull hard.
    mary
     
  10. elly_may

    elly_may Well-Known Member

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    This is where 'bouncing' comes in handy. Puts ones mind at ease to know that a doe is done kidding when you may suspect there could be one more. That way there's no surprises.

    I am glad that your kidding went well and that momma came through ok - with 4 goaties at her side; wowser.