[WolfSoul]

I'm trying to figure out how an unregistered animal can be registered as an American Alpine or Nubian when it didn't have papers. Am I misunderstanding the American Dairy Goat papers or can they eventually be registered if someone from the organization certifies the unregistered animal and then each successive generation can be registered a little higher up in the "chain?" Sorry for the unconventional terms, but I'm new to this. Thanks, Karen

 

[Wendy]

I'll take a stab at this.

We will use Nubians for my example. If you have a Nubian doe of unknown parentage that conforms to breed standards, it can be registered as Native On Appearance. A member from ADGA has to write a note saying the goat meets the standards of that breed. That is sent in with a registration application. You will get brown papers back saying the goat is registered NOA. (native on appearance)

You then breed this doe to a purebred buck. The kids from the breeding can be registered & come back with papers saying they are 50% Nubian.

Breed the 50% doe kid with another purebred buck & the kids can be registered as 75%.

Breed doe kids from that breeding to a purebred buck & their kids can be registered as American Nubians. They will never be able to be registered as Purebred no matter how many times you breed to a purebred buck. They will reach American status & that is as far as it goes. That is why a lot of breeders don't like Americans, because somewhere, generations back, there is unknown blood.

Hope that made sense.

 

[DayBird]

What about with Nigerian Dwarfs? Same as with the Nubians? The closest breeder to me with dwarfs is no longer a member of either the NDGA or the ADGA and no longer registers her kids although all of her breeding stock are registered with either of these two orginizations. Would these be wise purchases? Could I register them? Would they not be considered purebred?

 

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Wendy is correct, but change all her words that said "registered" to recorded. The goats from unknown ancestory are only recorded until the great great great grand daughter out of her, with all of these daughters conforming to the breed standard, then this daughter is then a registered Amercian Nubian.

Only purebred Nigerians will be allowed in ADGA. Same with AGS. Know nothing about the other registries. Vicki

 

[TexCountryWoman]

In Wendy's post she mentioned that "someone from the ADGA had to write a note saying the goat conformed to the breed standard", or something to that affect. About 15 years ago, I upgraded a nice lot of beautiful non-pedigreeded Nubians with nice Registered bucks. I was an ADGA member and no other member came out and looked at my goats to see if they met breed standards. I am a very honest goatkeeper and would never do anything to pollute the meticulous paperwork of the ADGA or any association. (I know of a woman who use to put her cute doe kids with the best pedigreed mothers and tatoo them to fit her fancy...I was going to report her but then there was a death in her family and she went out of the goat business very quickly with me not knowing where her goats went, it sickens me that i could not stop her lying, cheating ways before she "polluted the genetic pool this way). Back on topic: I kept open communications with the ADGA and their was never a problem. I eventually over time, developed a beautiful line of American Nubians that I was VERY proud of because I had created them myself, so to speak. Unfortunately, that was in my pre-Pyrenees days and I had a massive kill related to a pack of dogs and lost it all. Was I in error not to have another member of the ADGA assess my original does? I intend to upgrade some Lamanchas now, I have one real nice purebred (but no papers) that I plan to breed to my Reg LaMancha buck and record her doelings. Does another ADGA member have to come look at my doe ? I don't want to do anything irresponsible that my come back and haunt me later or undo years of hard work.

 

[Wendy]

I was always told it had to be another member & not the person registering the goat.

 

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

To grade up you don't need permission, but TCW if you find a goat at the auction that appears to be Nubian, to record her you do have to have her looked at and another ADGA member signs a letter stating that this doe, born such and such (which you really are guessing) does conform to whatever breed standard you are saying. This is the one program in ADGA that's time has come to be done away with.

With the influx of boer I won't do this anymore in Nubian, for anyone. I had way to many 1/2 gals that could eaisly have been registered as Nubians.

ADGA is not the police, turning her in would have done nothing. Right now there are Nubians being registered north of me, the originating doe was a Kinder (Nubian/pygmy). I can talk until I am blue in the face, it means nothing. You could turn them into trade an arbitration, but if it isn't affecting you personally, once again our committee could do nothing, win a judgement, and alot like Texas law, we can't make her pay you or even take the goat back.... Now....get caught with bloodtyping, DHIR or ****off the wrong person, well then you go DOWN! Vicki

 

[TexCountryWoman]

I have never bought a goat at the auction. The goats that I upgraded and recorded I bought from locals with which I had great trust in. I saw the parents of the goats and knew what they were. These were backwoods local folks who had all Nubians for generations and had just not been interested in papers. I was convinced in the gut I knew what I was getting.

Now as far as that slick as a snake paper changing woman goes, I never purchased goats from her. She was actually a co-worker who became active in goats because of me. Whereas I started with nothing and built my herd from scratch, she had to "out do me" and instantly had her "grand herd" by spending mass quantities of money all at once by ordering goats from California and everywjhere else by plane, sight unseen. She got some pretty bad looking junk too and didn't even know it. She was very guilible and I think it must have been obvious. She could talk the talk but could not walk the walk. Many of her goats died form overfeeding. She blamed her child each time.

I have also been "burned" slightly by the Boer thing. I purchased what i thought were two LaMancha does (and a Reg. LaMancha buckling) to start my new dairy herd. The first doe is 100% LaMancha. Doe number two, although she looked primarily LaMancha and a bit Nubian (which still would have been okay to grade up because they are both dairy breeds), but come to find out, she was 1/4 Boer! I found this out after purchase, at first i bought them as milkers only with no intention of getting into goats so bloodlines didn't matter. Only a bit later did I get bit by the breeding bug and after talking to the dairy owner realize the second doe was Boer-blooded. So her youngin's are not destined for recording. Her doelings can go into the meat herd. She is a wonderful milker though. She is 1/2 LaMancha, 1/4 Nubian, 1/4 Boer. So since I already had a Nubian type doe and her 1/2 Boer doeling (correct in color) given to me by someone who "hated them", I went ahead and purchased a Reg, Fullblood Boer buckling from someone on this board! Two bucks and four does, a little wacky, I know. But I live so remote, and I like to have my own bucks, and I don't drive anymore, and I am one of those who LIKE bucks. And these two studly 4 month old fellows are growing up together as good buddies and hopefully will be able to remain friends and roomies. Ideally. Oh how I ramble.