hoeggers and dewormer

Discussion in 'Goats' started by susanne, Jan 21, 2005.

  1. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

    Messages:
    4,465
    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2004
    Location:
    michigan
    s sombody ordering from hoeggers? they have an articel about wormers in the 2004 catalog. would be interesting to hear some opinions about herbal wormers and efectivness of herbs in general. i wanted to give it a try but as soon as i have sprinkled it over thei food they don't want to eat it any more. so i made a dought with molasse out of it. two of my does loved it and eat it like candy but the other five don't want that. other question is in order to be effective do i have to use a chemical dewormer first? oh what a stupid question.
    susanne




    UPTATED WORM REPORT
    Portions of a recent three-year study sponsored by a USDA $250,000.00 grant were published in the November, 2003 Goat Rancher Magazine. This study addresses the problems posed by the high prevalence of drug resistance in gastrointestinal parasites in goats.Goats are extremly susceptible to wormsand die if not successfully treated. Stomach worms are blood feeders and a goat can die from blood loss due to these worms within several weeks. the two most used drugs ivermectin and Albendazole, have proven to be ineffective. In fact, the majority of the commonly used chemical dewormer just don't work at all. Quoting Dr.Ray Kaplan,University of Georgia Parasitologist, "if the goat industry keeps doing what it has been doing, in a few years, there will be no drugs left to kill worms and the goat industry will suffer greatly. We are trying to look at new and better ways to use drugs as well as drug alternatives."

    Worms and other species of parasites, such as coccidia protozoa,invade the body, consume the vital oxygencarrying whit blood cells, wound tissue and excrete cancer-causing wastes. Sick goats are often misdiagnosed and incorrectly treated for other diseases when worn infestation has played the key causative role. A worm infestation can seriously impact the health of your goats. Although we normally think in terms of the stomach and intestines as being the primary sites for these uninvited guests, parasites can also be found in the liver, muscles, joints, esophagus,brain, spinal column, blood, skin and even in the eyes.

    Speaking from our own experience of 69 years of goat keeping, we have succsessfully used the Herbal Wormer wich, when given in the feed once a week as directed:

    * Maintains a safe, effective level of natural paraside to wich worms never become resistent

    * It will not harm pregnant does, unborn kids or young ones

    * You never have to throw away that wonderfull milk that you and your goats worked so hard to produce.

    * the Herbal Wormer is easy to administer and very economical to use.

    Another report, wich was featured in the United Caprine News several years ago, showed the Herbal Wormer to be more effective than most of the popular widely used chemical drugs.
     
  2. Lt. Wombat

    Lt. Wombat Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    335
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2003
    We have great results with the herbal from Hoegger's but than again, as Vickie put it, where we live we could probably worm with pickle juice and get the same results :haha:
     

  3. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

    Messages:
    4,465
    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2004
    Location:
    michigan

    pickle juice ? :confused:
    susanne
     
  4. Lt. Wombat

    Lt. Wombat Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    335
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2003
    Because it gets to -40 here there isn't a worm in sight, so she jokes that we could worm with pickle juice where as in her area it's hard core pesticides or you're over run.
     
  5. Debi

    Debi Active Member

    Messages:
    43
    Joined:
    May 1, 2003
    I had two more sets of fecals run today: One from my yearlings, one from my 2-3 year old does. They were both negative. The vet was surprised, asked me what I'm doing. I last wormed in September prior to bringing the buck in for breeding with Cydectin. Every other day, I sprinkle about 2 tblsp. of diamateous earth in with their grain and alfalfa pellets.

    I am in Texas and we've had torrential rain, record amounts this year. I keep expecting high numbers but keep coming up negative on the fecals. The only explanation is the DE because that's all I've done for the last 4 months.

    I also check the color of the eyelids and gums on a regular basis and all are nice and pink. So far, I'm impressed with my results.

    Debi
    Kaufman TX
     
  6. Jen H

    Jen H Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,832
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Location:
    Washington
    With the herbal wormers, it really depends on where you live if they're going to be effective at all or not. That said, here are some of my thoughts (take them for what they're worth);

    With the chemical wormer, you give the chemical and then it passes completely out of the goat's system. The herbal wormers also use anti-worm chemicals, they just come from plants instead of a factory. So you're constantly exposed to small amounts of those anti-worm chemicals in the animal's meat and milk - your eating it along with the goats. With the chemical wormers if you honor the withdrawal times you won't be eating that chemical at all.

    The other potential problem I see with the herbal wormers is the worms building up immunities to them because of the constant exposure. Again, with the chemical wormers you use the chemical, it does it's job, and it's gone. Every once in a while you use a different chemical to clear out anything that's gotten resistant to the stuff you normally use. Those worms will build up immunities to any anti-worm substance, no matter if it comes from a factory or a plant. If the goat always has these substances inside of it, the worms will just get used to it and then you have a much sicker animal with worms that are way harder to get rid of than if you had just used the chemical stuff to begin with.
     
  7. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,817
    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Location:
    North of Houston TX
    Debi, you will find that fecal egg counts rarely rise here from October through till freshening or your first good pasture greenup, out here. Right now most of the moma worms and eggs are at pasture or in your shavings overwintering. What are in your goats are arrested larve, waiting on the birth hormones, spring, or another stress to activiate, start sucking blood and start laying eggs. A clear fecal this time of year, we let our numbers go down into the 300's before worming, are pretty normal. Eggs and mom's at pasture are not going to float up and cling to the tops of the dry grasses to be eaten by the does, because they might just get frozen, they are in the top layer of your soil, and are living through are frosts and short freezes quite nicely. It takes days of hard freeze that goes into the ground, or really dry weather to kill these parasites in pastures, even burning doesn't work.

    Keep using the DE, but do fecal samples this spring when you see grazing in the grass, or at least worm them the day they kid. Vicki
     
  8. Debi

    Debi Active Member

    Messages:
    43
    Joined:
    May 1, 2003
    Yep, definately going to worm the day each kids. I'm hoping the DE helps keep the numbers down this summer. That'll be the real test.

    Do you think any of our 20 degree temps killed any off? It hasn't seemed to slow the flies down much. When it warms back up (20 at night and 70 the next day), the flies are thick.

    Debi
    kaufman TX
     
  9. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,817
    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Location:
    North of Houston TX
    Shoot they can all, including the flies hold their breath longer than that :) Up north you hear about things like a frost line, a hard freeze etc. the ground is frozen not just a frost on the grass like here :) So no it didn't do anything to the worms and cocci in our soil, and it certainly didn't do anything in the manure/shavings pack in the barn.

    Tracy up in FROZEN Idaho was going to put a thermometer into her barn manure pack that keeps the girls warm during the winter. I will be curious to see what it says! I haven't even bedded the barn this year yet, they will get their straw and shavings about 2 weeks before they kid.

    When Texas A&M came to talk to us a second time after their blasting of DE, they did say it seemed to have a residual effect on the worms if used when numbers where light, but the same thing can be said for keeping your copper up and using Cydedtin. So I bet some of it is coincidence. I know since bolusing and now using a high copper mineral and the use of Cydectin just 2 or 3 times a year, our worm numbers are never high like they used to be. Vicki
     
  10. Lt. Wombat

    Lt. Wombat Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    335
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2003
    YUP, talked to the SDSU age extension office today and they said our frost line is currently at 51" which is shy of the 72" it usually is this time of year.

    As JAS said, "it's a heat wave".
     
  11. Eiledon

    Eiledon New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2004
    Location:
    TX
    I use Molly's Herbal wormer and have had good success with it. Only had problems with a couple of goats and gave them one dose of chemical wormer and they were fine for the rest of the season. Of course, rotating pasture, feeding them properly, etc. also helps a lot. I think some people just want that magic bullet that they can give their goats that will allow them to do the minimum amount of work and have a perfectly healthy herd. It ain't out there.

    I think the worms would be much less likely to develop resistance to herbs. Resistance is built up by organisms to foreign substances like chemicals, not natural substances like herbs.

    Anyway, I'm sold on the herbal wormer. My goats have never looked better. I'm planning on trying to make my own combination using about the same ingredients by ordering them from Penn Herb Co.. I will, however, continue to keep some ivomec on hand, for the one or two goats that need it in late summer.

    my .02...

    Diane
     
  12. Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

    Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,817
    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Location:
    North of Houston TX
    I use Molly's Herbal wormer and have had good success with it. Only had problems with a couple of goats and gave them one dose of chemical wormer and they were fine for the rest of the season.
    .......................

    But my goats also where only wormed once between March, when they kidded and then not again until they where going in with the buck in October....and I didn't have to give them any herbal wormer weekly either.

    But your saying your wormer is your secret bullet? Let's see...give all the goats something weekly or give them wormer the day they kid, which one is less money, less work and worked the best? Even herbs have to be processed by the liver, and it's not as if you are choosing herbs for their gentle qualities, you are trying to make the intestine so inhospitapal that the worms will not stay and suck blood or lay eggs and multiply, and you are doing this constantly. I wouldn't say there is anything natural about that.

    And I will say this again, if you live in the south, whatever you choose to do with your goats you had better fecal now and then to see what is truly working and what is not. You can not look at your goats and see if they are worm burden free. And they can go from beautiful goats to dead goats with our hemoncous worms in the south in one day.

    "YUP, talked to the SDSU age extension office today and they said our frost line is currently at 51" which is shy of the 72" it usually is this time of year."

    Soo what do they do when folks die this time of year? Do they really predig holes like they did on the show Northern Exposure? Durn I missed that show! So construction and everything just roars to a stop for your whole winter? Vicki
     
  13. debitaber

    debitaber Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,061
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2003
    that is about it. Vicki, here in michigan, it all comes to a stop. to cold , nd to much wind. I worry about my girls and worms, but I just wormed a couple of weeks ago, and will again soon. as I have 3 due, in a few days.It is going to be below zero again to night. I really think it is to cold, but I never take a chance. I worm. I don't want worm over load. I had a fecal done in sept. the ywere all clear, but since they are all preggers, i went ahead and wormed , and will worm again the day they kid.
    and the y got all of their shots the same day. along with probious. I want healthy goats. and kids, I never take a chance.
     
  14. Lileyfarm

    Lileyfarm Member

    Messages:
    5
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Location:
    Indiana
    "With the chemical wormer, you give the chemical and then it passes completely out of the goat's system. The herbal wormers also use anti-worm chemicals, they just come from plants instead of a factory. So you're constantly exposed to small amounts of those anti-worm chemicals in the animal's meat and milk - your eating it along with the goats. With the chemical wormers if you honor the withdrawal times you won't be eating that chemical at all."


    I just wanted to say that there is nothing wrong with consuming Parasite killing herbs. We all need a parasite cleanse at least once a year, and herbs are the way you do it. Wormwood, black walnut hull, cloves etc. are the ingredients found in the parasite cleanses you find at the healthfood store, and they are perfectly safe. I don't remember what all the ingredients in the Hoegger herbal wormer are, but if it is just herbs, then I would say it is perfectly safe.
     
  15. susanne

    susanne Nubian dairy goat breeder

    Messages:
    4,465
    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2004
    Location:
    michigan


    i think unfortunatly that is not true. take foxglove (digitalis) for example. it's an herb but you could kill some body with it. also there are herbs if somebody takes it there could be an abortion. i read somewere that wormwod could do that.
    i still like the herbal idea.
     
  16. Lileyfarm

    Lileyfarm Member

    Messages:
    5
    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2005
    Location:
    Indiana


    Well, that is definitely true, there are many harmful plants, but I don't think that there are any toxic plants in the Hoeggers wormer and Molly's Herbal wormer, and those are the products I was refering to. I probably shouldn't have worded it the way I did. I didn't mean that all herbs were okay all the time. Pregnant women should always be cautious about what they take because there is a long list of herbs that can cause problems in pregnancy. When using herbs people definitly need to be informed about what they are using.
     
  17. CathyJK

    CathyJK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    56
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    The whole parasite load issue is so much more than just using wormers--chemical or natural. If you left poop build up and never have any sort of pasteur management, you're going to have parasite problems. If you feed poor quality food and have unclean facilities--problems again. As for DE, I think it works great to spread on poop piles and kill bugs, or for my chickens to dust bath in for mite, but taken internally, I don't think it does much. My limited understanding is the sharp edges of the diatoms (DE) are there once they are wet (hence putting out more DE after a rain). In the gut track it has to be wet and therefore not working. BUT I thought DE has lots of other minerals. So perhaps the benefit and results folks see is that--not necessarily decreased worms. AND the folks who go to the bother of feeding DE most likely have a whole set of other good stuff going on to--clean facilities, good food, clean water, healthy environment--so I think it's hard to simply peel out DE as being a good wormer.
    Once again, it is a wholistic approach.
    Our dogs (and we have 6) get home-made dog food, lots of brown rice, raw hamburger (from a local rancher), nutritional yeast, lots of omega 3, 6, 9; alfalfa, kelp, vitamin C, tumeric power, raw vegetables and fruit. I only worm them with a chemical (one a year) because they eat coyote poop! GO figure.
    Anyway, everytime we see the vet, it's always the same --wow, these dogs are in unbelievable condition--what are you feeding them!.
    ANyway, just my 1/2 cents worth.
     
  18. CathyJK

    CathyJK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    56
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    The whole parasite load issue is so much more than just using wormers--chemical or natural. If you let poop build up and never have any sort of pasture management, you're going to have parasite problems. If you feed poor quality food and have unclean facilities--problems again. As for DE, I think it works great to spread on poop piles and kill bugs, or for my chickens to dust bath to keep mites/lice in check, but taken internally, I don't think it does much. My limited understanding is the sharp edges of the diatoms (DE) aren't there once wet (hence putting out more DE after a rain). In the gut track it has to be wet and therefore DE not working. BUT I was under the impression DE has lots of other minerals. So perhaps the benefit and results folks see is that--not necessarily decreased worms. AND the folks who go to the bother of feeding DE most likely have a whole set of other good stuff going on to--clean facilities, good food, clean water, healthy environment--so I think it's hard to simply peel out DE as being a good wormer.
    Once again, it is a wholistic approach.
    Our dogs (and we have 6) get home-made dog food, lots of brown rice, raw hamburger (from a local rancher), nutritional yeast, lots of omega 3, 6, 9; alfalfa, kelp, vitamin C, tumeric powder, raw vegetables and fruit and they get tons of outside exercise. I only worm them with a chemical (one a year) because they eat coyote poop! GO figure.
    Anyway, everytime we see the vet, it's always the same --wow, these dogs are in unbelievable condition--what are you feeding them!.
    ANyway, just my 1/2 cents worth.
     
  19. Eiledon

    Eiledon New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2004
    Location:
    TX
    I'm not saying that my wormer is my secret bullet. I just said that I'm sold on it. It works for my goats, my budget, and my schedule. I'm saying that there ISN'T a secret bullet. That's why it's a worm prevention PROGRAM.

    If I had more than 10-15 goats to worry about, I might consider using chemicals for the convenience. My goats love herbal wormer when I make it into little dosage balls for them. I call it "goat candy." They eat it out of my hand. Contrast that with having to rassle a goat down to drench it with wormer and I much prefer the herbal stuff. Yes, it is a little more effort to prepare for them, but it's MUCH less effort to administer.

    And the herbal wormer costs about half of what ivomec does. Even the generic ivomec. And I've never been able to worm my goats only in the spring and fall, so I'd be using a 50 ml bottle per month during the summer for sure (if I didn't buy anything else to rotate with which, of course, I would).

    As far as how well it works, I do just go by how my goats look, act, eat, and gain. However, I do plan to get with a friend who can show me how to do fecals. When I do, I'll find out exactly how well my worm prevention program works (or doesn't work).

    I'll let y'all know...
     
  20. NubianGoatGirl

    NubianGoatGirl Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2005
    Has anyone else had a problem with their goats developing allergies to Hoeggar's Herbal Wormer or Tonic? I had three goats on it and one developed severe respiratory problems. She would become very short of breath after she ate. I called the vet and he told me to give her penicillin everyday for a week and to worm her with Ivermec. That did not help AT ALL. Then I gave her Benadryl and stopped the Hoeggar wormer and tonic. She is a little better, but has a way to go yet. I will keep you posted.